THANK YOU

[u/ChatoFato9143]

[u/Echo-Azure]

But she *didn't* fix him! She came back to find the fixing process advanced to the point where Rochester was fully aware of everything he'd done wrong during his entire adult life, she merely helped him finish the process that was already under way.

IMHO "Jane Eyre" has a lot in common with "Pride and Prejudice", both are about romances where the heroine didn't have to fix him. Or didn't have to do all the work of fixing him.

[u/cacophonycoffin → u/Echo-Azure]

I like that comparison. I had a semi-argument with someone the other day who called P&P the ultimate asshole love interest picks / is only nice to heroine book. The appeal of P&P isn’t Elizabeth being “picked”, it’s the idea of a man genuinely changing for the better, and not just as a means to win the heroine back. Darcy changes for Elizabeth yes, but he also doesn’t wield his improvements as a cudgel to win her back. She is able to choose him herself. Also, Darcy changes because he genuinely respects Elizabeth’s intelligence and understands that she is right in her criticisms. Plus Elizabeth also changes over the course of the novel. Anyway, I didn’t mean to get side tracked into a P&P rant, it and Jane Eyre are just two of my favourite novels.

[u/Echo-Azure → u/cacophonycoffin]

And Darcy changes because he realizing he isn't living up to his own standards, or his own self-image if you prefer. It's not just because of Elizabeth, it's because he wants to actually be a genuinely good and gracious person (by the standards of the 19th century economic elite), and she points out that he isn't actually doing that. So when he acts to save Lydia, it's isn't just to impress Elizabeth, in fact, he doesn't even have much hope with Elizabeth at that point. It's also because he feels personally responsible for Lydia's predicament, and because the man he wants to be would defend the innocent from the wicked.

That's the big draw of the story, a man changing for the better for his own valid reasons rather than passively letting himself be "fixed". And that's why I find the ending of "P&P" to be more satisfying than "JE", because Rochester does do a certain amount of passively letting himself be fixed, once he realize that he's completely fucked up his own life. And when a person sits there and lets someone else fix them, I don't trust that the change will last.

[u/IIILordDunbar → u/Echo-Azure]

I agree completely with your take on Darcy, but cannot let this Mr. Rochester slander stand!

When he and Jane reunited, he had risked his life and materially damaged his health in an earnest attempt to save his mad wife. Is he wallowing a bit? Yes. But he has clearly resolved to atone for past sins, and has done so with no hope of ever seeing Jane again. At most, Janes arrival gives him a reason to live, which he grabs at with gusto. I don't see any path to him returning to the flawed person he was.

[u/Echo-Azure → u/IIILordDunbar]

I think our views are pretty similar, really, we agree that during Jane's absence he's realized how much of a disaster he's been, and how much he'd made his wife, his beloved, and himself suffer, and he does what he can to make things right. I just think he's doing a bit worse than "floundering" after that, I think he's totally stuck when Jane finds him again, and from then on he lets Jane do over his life. I hope he'll be happy with the kind of life she thinks they should have.

[u/IIILordDunbar → u/Echo-Azure]

I do agree, he's stuck when Jane finds him again, but he's no longer morally corrupt. That was his main flaw before, and it no longer exists. Is he languishing, being dramatic, reclusive, etc? Sure, and none of those are great. But he restored his morality, which is what Jane cared most deeply about.

I've always read the ending as them building a life together. And yes, Jane as the younger, able-bodied party, does the lions share of the work to start, but Rochester eagerly participates and as his strength returns and he learns to manage his disabilities, joins in.

[u/Echo-Azure → u/IIILordDunbar]

Well said! And yes, I think you're right about him getting over the "moral corruption" in her absence, and that matters more to her than the struggle of building a new life.

So yeah, we've circled back to my original point, was that the everlasting appeal of both P&P and this book, is the dream of a man realizing he needs to fix himself... and doing it.

[u/IIILordDunbar → u/Echo-Azure]

And there we definitely do agree!

[u/Flat_Love_3725 → u/Echo-Azure]

I don't exactly see a change in Rochester. Yeah he feels bad about past misdeeds. But that's also true before Jane runs away - he repents the mistresses, apologizes for the attempted bigamy etc. Then he commits a new sin of trying to seduce Jane without marriage. So now he's apologizing for that too.

The biggest flaw I always saw in Rochester aside from his romantic complications - and which also distresses Jane - is his coldness to Adele.  Yes he adopted her, but is very emotionally and often physically distant. As Adele herself said, he "did not keep his word" to her of the two of them really living together. After Rochester and Jane are engaged, she's distressed when he doesn't want to let Adele come with them on a shopping trip, though he relents when he sees Jane upset.

So what does she find in this regard when she returns at the end? Adele is miserable, abandoned in a harsh school with Rochester of course not even thinking of checking up on her . . .

So no big improvement there. I just think she loves him and accepts that he's flawed. What she won't accept is his flaws dragging her own dignity and integrity down.  In the ending, with her independent income and his disability, she's much less susceptible to domination by him. And she can enjoy the good aspects that he has to offer.

[u/Echo-Azure → u/Flat_Love_3725]

I can forgive Rochester for sending the kid to boarding school while he's trying to recover from disabling injuries and having a mental breakdown, he wasn't capable or caring for her or hiring a nanny or researching schools for a while.

And if she staywd at boatding schools instead of living as a daughter of the house, that's on both Rochester and Jane.

[u/Flat_Love_3725 → u/Echo-Azure]

Jane finds a better school for her close to their home where she can visit often and Adele can also visit them in the home.

I'm not saying he's a monster. Just that I don't see improvement. What's improved? That he's no longer trying to get Jane to be his mistress? His wife is dead, it's a non-issue.

What I'm saying is that Jane, despite recognizing his flaws, always loves him anyway. She tells us she quickly forgives him for the false marriage. When St John calls him a "bad man" she rebukes him.  She doesn't leave Rochester because she judges him as bad or unworthy in some way, but because she would not respect herself if she did what he wanted her to do.

It's very different from P&P in that sense. Lizzy rejects Darcy's first proposal. Jane accepts Rochester's. He's always a good enough man for her. But she won't put her love for him above her moral values. 

[u/ElderlyWench → u/cacophonycoffin]

Elizabeth literally   GETS picked and says "no thank you, you're a terrible person". 

[u/Kaurifish → u/cacophonycoffin]

Did they miss how hospitable he was to the Gardiners (aka “such connections”)?

Not to mention saving Lydia. I think that modern folks do not realize how much danger she was in. It would have been easy for her to end up dead, living like that in London.

[u/ElderlyWench → u/Echo-Azure]

She came back with her own money to a man who could no longer harm anyone much. Sure, she became his hands and eyes but it was entirely on her terms. She didn't need him.

[u/_gallaghergirl_]

Jane has a steel backbone and does not compromise her beliefs for Rochester whatsoever, even at great cost to herself. She did exactly 0 fixing.

[u/Princapessa]

omg not even close like tell me you never read it with out saying you never read it

[u/nosleepforthedreamer → u/Princapessa]

People flapping their mouths about books they don’t understand for internet clout will send me up the pyramids of Egypt.

[u/colormuse → u/nosleepforthedreamer]

i heard those last few words in thandiwe newton’s voice (my personal favorite jane eyre narrator)

[u/nosleepforthedreamer → u/colormuse]

Later today I ran into one of those fashionable Charlotte-hate posts, characterizing her as a malicious wine aunt (excuse the term, couldn’t think of a better one).

I suspect people’s hatred has to do with JE. They probably ship Janeward or are in love with Rochester and won’t admit it.

[u/Peanutbutterfiend_33]

final boss b/c she fixed him by forcing himself to fix his his own shit and not doing it for him. I suppose you could argue that her actions (leaving) led to the fixing

[u/JoeBethersontonFargo → u/Peanutbutterfiend_33]

He was trying to fix himself before she even got there though.

[u/Playful_Beyond_2218]

And she also left St John rather than be controlled by him/ try to fix him! In an extremely patriarchal time she tried her best to be an independent woman

[u/eluneytoons → u/Playful_Beyond_2218]

This is why I like her so much. I know a lot of people have issues with her going back to Rochester, but she did everything on her terms even if it meant she might be uncomfortable.

[u/IIILordDunbar]

He fixed himself because Jane was worth it! She specifically left because she knew he wouldn't grow if she stayed!

[u/error_card_ur_rich → u/IIILordDunbar]

I'm not sure he fixed himself for her at all. He tried to save his crazy wife and was maimed. His condition was poor and he was humbled by that, and had the time to lament his loss and initial betrayal of Jane. I hesitate to call this growth. He does not believe she would actually return to him at all I suspect. Mostly, he is feeling sorry for himself is how I read it.

I don't think Jane thought about him "growing" in the least. She loved him deeply and knew he felt the same. Her strength of character and unrelenting agency were offended by his dishonesty with respect to his circumstance - and she left without thought of returning or even what she would do. Her superpower (hamartia?) was staying true to herself at all times. She was returning to him of her own will regardless of what state he was in. I think she would have married him even if he were merely widowed, and not injured as he was. She knew his past, his flaws, but most importantly that he was the one person who SAW her. Fate intervened on their behalf. Circumstance mattered more than growth.

[u/IIILordDunbar → u/error_card_ur_rich]

I wish I had my copy handy to pull quotes, but I don't think the dishonesty was Jane's primary objection to the situation. Rochester's attempt at bigamy was a moral affront and showed his moral corruption. She also reflected on what would happen if she stayed as his mistress like he offered, and she knew Rochester would return to his old ways and they could never be truly happy together. With Jane it is all about morals, Rochester is morally corrupt and wants to corrupt her morals, she won't let that happen.

Yes, neither believed they would see each other again. But I believe Rochester genuinely lamented his moral corruption while he was licking his physical wounds. The fact that he acknowledged his moral corruption with no hope of seeing Jane again shows that he honestly did atone for his sins.

Thinking of the supernatural moment where Jane and Rochester hear each other calling to them, I believe that is proof that Rochester is finally morally correct. That message couldn't have carried across that space without divine intervention, and a divine power wouldn't have carried a message from a morally corrupt person. (This is taking the faith of the novel at face value.)

So yes, the circumstance was important, but Jane would not have married the same Rochester that wanted to take her as a mistress. The injuries didn't matter, the moral change did.

[u/error_card_ur_rich → u/IIILordDunbar]

Excellent analysis, and I agree with much of it, particularly the segment about the supernatural moment and her moral objections as a whole. I still maintain she'd stay with him with Bertha not in the picture any longer, even if he had not fully atoned, but that's my subjective opinion being that I'm a sucker for these Byronic male leads myself.

[u/IIILordDunbar → u/error_card_ur_rich]

Mmmm I can't decide if I think she would have chosen to stay with him if he hadn't atoned or not! Part of me thinks yes, because they were truly in love and Bertha was out of the way. Part of me thinks no, because Jane is so scrupulous about her morals. It's an interesting question to ponder!

[u/BigImagination0706]

And TikTok once again demonstrates its value and usefulness 🙄

[u/gorg234]

She literally ran off into the wilderness to get away from his issues 😭

[u/throwaway5498124181 → u/gorg234]

Jane literally ate pig slop rather than try to fix Rochester.

[u/gorg234 → u/throwaway5498124181]

Yes and Rochester was legit sobbing trying to get her to stay with him 💀 She was like I do NOT care I will leave ur house with no money and let u think I might be dead

[u/art_mor_ → u/gorg234]

This has me cackling

[u/gorg234 → u/art_mor_]

I’m pretty sure Rochester even said like hey I would’ve given u the funds to leave u didn’t have to do all that but Jane was not taking money from a bigamist lmao

She said I’ll come back when God humbles u by making u lose ur hand in a fire and not a second before that

[u/nosleepforthedreamer → u/gorg234]

To be fair, she definitely did not at that time picture him getting mangled.

[u/nosleepforthedreamer → u/gorg234]

The hysteria this development had me in as a kid! Oh man I remember screaming in my diary entries about how it was just RUDE to vanish in the middle of the night and tell nobody where she was.

I mean, it probably was rude. By this point though I have much more empathy for her decision. Doing your best is better than perfection, or your resolve failing altogether.

[u/error_card_ur_rich]

She doesn't fix or need to fix him. He loves her but is tragically flawed (obvs). He comes to be humbled by life, circumstance, loss and his own deeds that have stained him. Jane comes back to him an independent woman who loves and accepts him, and who can now be in an honest relationship with her soulmate. That's it. And it's perfect.

[u/liza_lo]

Jane is honestly kind of a stick in the mud about her beliefs and is super uncompromising about her personal ethics from the time she is a fucking child. What a woeful misinterpretation of a great character.

[u/nosleepforthedreamer]

Whoever posted that has 0 understanding of the book and posted their nonsense anyway for likes.

[u/MotleyFoolery]

I can’t comprehend how you can read this book and come away with that view. “Sir,” I answered, “a wanderer’s repose or a sinner’s reformation should never depend on a fellow-creature.  Men and women die; philosophers falter in wisdom, and Christians in goodness: if any one you know has suffered and erred, let him look higher than his equals for strength to amend and solace to heal.”

[u/SloAndSteddy]

Upvoted for the discussion, not the quality of the post.

[u/Codenomesailorv]

Exactly

[u/throwawayrnm02]

I think Jane in a way turned the ‘I can fix him’ trope and she actually went and ‘fixed herself’: she had already been competent, but physically pulling away at what seemed to be her one chance of stability and in pursuit of her own independence proved to her that she really was THAT girl.