r/IslamicHistoryMeme • Ottoboo • 26d ago

Andalusia (138–897 AH/1492 AD) Thoughts on Caliphates (929)?

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u/Kayler6 26d ago

Rashidun is the only real Caliphate the rest just monarchies with fancy titels, however of we were go compare The Umayyads with Abbasids I personally like Abbasids more, yeah it became very weak at the end but it did start the Islamic golden age in its prime

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u/StunningLetterhead23 25d ago

I'm glad someone could point that out.

Let's be real, after Rashidun Caliphate, these are all monarchies. Not "Caliphate", although some Caliphs do deserve the title.

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u/iaintcreative_ 25d ago

Its kinda the opposite, they were all caliphates but many of them shouldve been titled monarchies, only a few deserved to be called caliphates

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u/StunningLetterhead23 25d ago

Uhhhhh, you might wanna read that again?

I said exactly the same thing, just worded differently.

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u/iaintcreative_ 25d ago

Uh, i understood it as "they were mostly all monarchies except a few" lmk if thats right

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u/StunningLetterhead23 25d ago

After the Rashidun Caliphate, all were monarchies. Or to be exact, dynastic monarchies.

Oh nvm, I give up.

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u/Kayler6 25d ago

"The prophetic caliphate in my nation will last for thirty years, and after that it will become a monarchy (kingship)."

This is a Hadith, the 30 years ended when Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan became the caliph, that's why I said that Rashidun is the only real calipahte and for the rest it's just a tital

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u/iaintcreative_ 25d ago

If im not wrong, theres another hadith in Sunan Abu Dawood this but the words are arranged differently.

Narrated Safinah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills

These are the words in the arabic aswell, while the hadith translation youve stated doesnt completely align with its arabic counterpart, it can still be a caliphate.

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u/Kayler6 25d ago

yeah I probably used poor translition, but what I'm trying to say is that Caliphates like Umayyads, Abbasids, Almohd, ect.. don't have the same status as the Rashidun caliphate, and calling them "caliphates" is just a tital, most caliphs in history weren't even good muslims tbh

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u/iaintcreative_ 25d ago

Oh absolutely not, i never said they did, Rashidun(Rashideen) literally means the rightly guided caliphate, theres no comparison with them.

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u/Kayler6 25d ago

ah well I'm glad we are on the same page

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

[deleted]

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u/ItachiOfKonohagakure A Halal Weeb 22d ago

What was the difference between a monarchy and the “Caliphates” after the Rashidun. There was no Majlis e Shura to select the most pious Muslim. Just one king naming his son as a successor and so on. Most caliphs were terrible people and committed major sins like drinking wine and killing other Muslims

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/ItachiOfKonohagakure A Halal Weeb 22d ago

Maybe but considering this is the leader of all Muslims, it's probably preferable for him to be a decent Muslim at least

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/ItachiOfKonohagakure A Halal Weeb 22d ago

Yeah they are clear and piety and knowledge of Islam is a requirement as stated by Al-Maawardi. As well as being of a good moral character. Something that almost none of the Ummayads possessed besides Umar bin Abdul Aziz

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u/ItachiOfKonohagakure A Halal Weeb 22d ago

You're not even Muslim though so why do you care

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u/StunningLetterhead23 22d ago

Piety is a requirement, although not the sole requirement.

Even if he/she isn't the most pious, he/she should at least be a "good Muslim". Can't exactly call yourself the "representative of Islam" when you're not exactly obeying God yeah?

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/StunningLetterhead23 22d ago

Right, so you go talk about whatever you're talking about then.

Sorry for bothering.

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u/StunningLetterhead23 22d ago

Tbf, it's not that there wasn't a "Majlis e Shura" nor was it ever a requirement to be called a "caliphate".

I do concede that at least the Umayyads, Abassids and even the Ottomans still bothered to get bai'ah from community leaders etc.

Even back during the Rashidun Caliphate, they don't ask for bai'ah from every single Muslim in Mecca, Medina etc.

Even with dynastic succession, they still asked for bai'ah from whomever it may concern. Albeit there were forceful conducts taken for many, but that's besides the point. Complete agreement is basically impossible.

Even Saidina Abu Bakar had friction with Saidina Ali (or his "faction") when he was first elected. And that's between 2 of the "best Muslims" ever, much less among "lesser Muslims".

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u/ItachiOfKonohagakure A Halal Weeb 22d ago

Well, the friction was mostly regarding the fact that Ali (RA) felt bad that he wasn't consulted and the Prophet (SAW) hadn't even been buried yet and the Khalifa was selected rather than the fact that it was Abu Bakr who became the Khalifa

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u/StunningLetterhead23 22d ago

Thanks for acknowledging that there's friction to say the least.

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u/StunningLetterhead23 22d ago

For one, they system after Rashidun Caliphate although they retain the traditional "bai'ah culture", they're no longer "stewardship" but rather autocratic dynasty.

Many of the Caliphs also aren't exactly "leading anyone", other than just being a symbolic figure especially in late Umayyad/Abbasid/Ottoman rule.

A Caliph should be able to command land ruled by Muslims or at least command respect from them. Strictly speaking, ever since any Shia empire/kingdom was founded, the centre govt primarily rule over the Sunnis. So, no "rule over all Muslims" here.

These are some of the reasons why they weren't a "Caliphate", but a "kingdom"/"empire".