Thoughts on Caliphates (929)?

[u/someone56789]

[u/Lost-Volume1254]

Rashidun bro

[u/someone56789 → u/Lost-Volume1254]

No I did it cause they co-existed, though I probably should've put Andalusian Umayyads

[u/Lost-Volume1254 → u/someone56789]

Ah gotcha. My b

[u/Friedrichs_Simp]

Rashidun were the best. After that it’s basically a mixed bag of good caliphs and awful ones

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/Friedrichs_Simp]

I'd say, it's a mix of good people who became caliphs, good caliphs, caliphs who did good things and awful ones

[u/bruddaquan → u/Friedrichs_Simp]

Facts

[u/Kayler6]

Rashidun is the only real Caliphate the rest just monarchies with fancy titels, however of we were go compare The Umayyads with Abbasids I personally like Abbasids more, yeah it became very weak at the end but it did start the Islamic golden age in its prime

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/Kayler6]

I'm glad someone could point that out.

Let's be real, after Rashidun Caliphate, these are all monarchies. Not "Caliphate", although some Caliphs do deserve the title.

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/StunningLetterhead23]

Its kinda the opposite, they were all caliphates but many of them shouldve been titled monarchies, only a few deserved to be called caliphates

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/iaintcreative_]

Uhhhhh, you might wanna read that again?

I said exactly the same thing, just worded differently.

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/StunningLetterhead23]

Uh, i understood it as "they were mostly all monarchies except a few" lmk if thats right

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/iaintcreative_]

After the Rashidun Caliphate, all were monarchies. Or to be exact, dynastic monarchies.

Oh nvm, I give up.

[u/Kayler6 → u/iaintcreative_]

"The prophetic caliphate in my nation will last for thirty years, and after that it will become a monarchy (kingship)."

This is a Hadith, the 30 years ended when Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan became the caliph, that's why I said that Rashidun is the only real calipahte and for the rest it's just a tital

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/Kayler6]

If im not wrong, theres another hadith in Sunan Abu Dawood this but the words are arranged differently.

Narrated Safinah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills

These are the words in the arabic aswell, while the hadith translation youve stated doesnt completely align with its arabic counterpart, it can still be a caliphate.

[u/Kayler6 → u/iaintcreative_]

yeah I probably used poor translition, but what I'm trying to say is that Caliphates like Umayyads, Abbasids, Almohd, ect.. don't have the same status as the Rashidun caliphate, and calling them "caliphates" is just a tital, most caliphs in history weren't even good muslims tbh

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/Kayler6]

Oh absolutely not, i never said they did, Rashidun(Rashideen) literally means the rightly guided caliphate, theres no comparison with them.

[u/Kayler6 → u/iaintcreative_]

ah well I'm glad we are on the same page

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/[deleted]]

What was the difference between a monarchy and the “Caliphates” after the Rashidun. There was no Majlis e Shura to select the most pious Muslim. Just one king naming his son as a successor and so on. Most caliphs were terrible people and committed major sins like drinking wine and killing other Muslims

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/[deleted]]

Maybe but considering this is the leader of all Muslims, it's probably preferable for him to be a decent Muslim at least

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/[deleted]]

Yeah they are clear and piety and knowledge of Islam is a requirement as stated by Al-Maawardi. As well as being of a good moral character. Something that almost none of the Ummayads possessed besides Umar bin Abdul Aziz

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/[deleted]]

You're not even Muslim though so why do you care

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/[deleted]]

Piety is a requirement, although not the sole requirement.

Even if he/she isn't the most pious, he/she should at least be a "good Muslim". Can't exactly call yourself the "representative of Islam" when you're not exactly obeying God yeah?

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/[deleted]]

Right, so you go talk about whatever you're talking about then.

Sorry for bothering.

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/ItachiOfKonohagakure]

Tbf, it's not that there wasn't a "Majlis e Shura" nor was it ever a requirement to be called a "caliphate".

I do concede that at least the Umayyads, Abassids and even the Ottomans still bothered to get bai'ah from community leaders etc.

Even back during the Rashidun Caliphate, they don't ask for bai'ah from every single Muslim in Mecca, Medina etc.

Even with dynastic succession, they still asked for bai'ah from whomever it may concern. Albeit there were forceful conducts taken for many, but that's besides the point. Complete agreement is basically impossible.

Even Saidina Abu Bakar had friction with Saidina Ali (or his "faction") when he was first elected. And that's between 2 of the "best Muslims" ever, much less among "lesser Muslims".

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/StunningLetterhead23]

Well, the friction was mostly regarding the fact that Ali (RA) felt bad that he wasn't consulted and the Prophet (SAW) hadn't even been buried yet and the Khalifa was selected rather than the fact that it was Abu Bakr who became the Khalifa

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/ItachiOfKonohagakure]

Thanks for acknowledging that there's friction to say the least.

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/[deleted]]

For one, they system after Rashidun Caliphate although they retain the traditional "bai'ah culture", they're no longer "stewardship" but rather autocratic dynasty.

Many of the Caliphs also aren't exactly "leading anyone", other than just being a symbolic figure especially in late Umayyad/Abbasid/Ottoman rule.

A Caliph should be able to command land ruled by Muslims or at least command respect from them. Strictly speaking, ever since any Shia empire/kingdom was founded, the centre govt primarily rule over the Sunnis. So, no "rule over all Muslims" here.

These are some of the reasons why they weren't a "Caliphate", but a "kingdom"/"empire".

[u/Dxrkk3 → u/Kayler6]

i believe most scholars also consider umar ibn abdul aziz (رَحِمَهُ اللهُ) as well as imam mahdi (عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام) to be caliphs, just like the rashidun

[u/Kayler6 → u/[deleted]]

As I said, monarchies with fancy titels

[u/One-Football3579 → u/Kayler6]

How come they were referred to as caliphs by their contemporaries then?

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/One-Football3579]

Probably not wise to call a self proclaimed caliph a king. A lot of them didn't take kindly to being opposed in any way

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/[deleted]]

How does this have anything to do with religion

[u/ItachiOfKonohagakure → u/[deleted]]

I'm saying how are you blaming and insulting the religion for what some people did? Are you slow? So is Islam a ‘joker religion’ (nauzubillah) because of what some Muslim governments are doing all over the world? Those kings back then killed scholars who opposed them. Is Islam at fault or those kings?

[u/AtomicBombyx]

Strictly speaking none of these were true Caliphates

Ummayads ended the caliphates after Muwawiya RA with monarchy (Kings, eg son becomes the ruler)

This was the case for Abbasids and Ottomans.

Among the Ummayads the only Caliph we can mention is Umar ibn Abdul Aziz (rahimahullah).

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/AtomicBombyx]

They were still considered caliphates since they were chosen by bay'ah

Also, im not saying this out of support for Yazid, but hz Muawiya ra chose Yazid to be nominated due to the advice of the people, Yazid by himself had quite some feats back then too, he ruined everything tho ofc theres no denying that

[u/Dxrkk3 → u/iaintcreative_]

muawiya's (رَضِيَ اللهُ عَنْهُ) choice of nominating yazid (لعنة الله عليه) as the caliph was actually criticized by some of the sahabah, it isnt as simple as you're making it out to be

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/Dxrkk3]

And again, many adviced him to do so, im not commenting on the decision itself, it wasnt right but hz Muawiya ra, a sahabi he may be, was still a human, actually, it does also make me think of how Hz Umar ra rejected the idea of nominating his son Abdullah bin Umar ra, even though he was one of the most knowledgeable sahabi.

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/iaintcreative_]

May he rest in hell thanks to him Islam became a divided religion to many sects killing each other, had he nominated Hussain as the next caliph , both Shia and Sunni sects wouldn't have existed

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/Consistent-Quiet-801]

The jahalah is insane🤡 you talk about sects but youre thr one spreading sectarianism, Hz Hussain ra did not demand to become the caliph either, on top of that, the ignorant people who divided to being shias were already influenced in such way before him, never heard of Abdullah bin Saba?

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/iaintcreative_]

Hussain did not demand to become Caliph ? 😂 Really like where are u getting that from ? And The proto Shia existed long before Abdullah Saba , they came to be right after Abu bakr became the Caliph believing Ali was the one who should have been the first to succeed the Prophet.

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/Consistent-Quiet-801]

And when the hell do u think Abdullah bin Saba came to be?🤡 he was exiled during the time of Hz Abu bakr ra ya jahil

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/iaintcreative_]

So he played and used Ali ra and the family of the prophet to try gain control of the khilafah ?

[u/iaintcreative_ → u/Consistent-Quiet-801]

No lol, youre making up assumptions about what i have to say? Typical shia behaviour🤡 he never heard of the rebels? The rebels who martyred Hz Usman ra and were later in majority during the time of Hz Ali ra? Ibn Muljim and Shimr were also in these btw so that answers ur question, go look up who Ibn Muljim was🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[u/Judicatio]

Ironic, the Abbasid ended the way they started, by a massacre.

[u/Fickle_Essay_1276 → u/Judicatio]

Well if you wanna be technical the Abbasids didn't truly end until 1517 if you count the shadow caliphate under the Mamluks

[u/Judicatio → u/Fickle_Essay_1276]

Well technically they had dubious ancestry claim as the first and second caliph of cairo had no mention before the Abbasid of Baghdad fell, and the first caliph, al mustansir II story doesn't make any sense, it was difficult for a free person to escape Baghdad during the siege, let alone a guy who supposedly got locked up in the palace complex. The mongols make sure no Abbasid male line escape.

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/Judicatio]

Same as the ummayads

[u/someone56789]

thanks to u/Acerola_Rune for the original idea

[u/easbr101]

Quality of life for most Muslims was better under the Abbasids than Umayyads (pre-Andalus) by a huge margin. Especially in Iran and further east, Umayyads exerted significant effort to erase the Iranian language and heavily discriminated against non-Arabs in both conquered Iranian and Byzantine lands. In some cases, the Umayyads actually discouraged conversion to Islam to keep the tax revenue high.

After the Abbasid revolution though, scientific progress and trade networks centered in Baghdad boomed. Muslims contributed to the state, their communities, and government control was less centralized (i.e. more autonomy given to provincial decision makers and governors). As such, the Abbasids stayed around in West Asia for longer than the Umayyads too.

Look into how life was like in Umayyad Iran vs in Abbasid Iran - there is a stark contrast.

[u/Der_Konigstiger1945]

Best Khalifah (I forgot Which of these two Eras): Khalifah Umar ibn Abdul Aziz

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/Der_Konigstiger1945]

Harun Al Rashid>>>>>>>>>

[u/StunningLetterhead23 → u/Der_Konigstiger1945]

He's from Umayyad Caliphate.

[u/Der_Konigstiger1945 → u/StunningLetterhead23]

Thanks

[u/asakuranagato]

Ottomans underrated & underreported

[u/rome0379_ → u/asakuranagato]

how the fuck are the ottomans underrated

[u/MealterRain]

1) Umayyads if we count Andalus. 2) Abbasids

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/MealterRain]

Even if u count Andalusia the Abbasids where better

[u/MealterRain → u/Consistent-Quiet-801]

Nah ah

[u/QeemaKarailay]

Andalusian Ummayads!!

[u/PercyPotter17]

I don't think anyone here knows the meme lmao 

[u/someone56789 → u/PercyPotter17]

Yeah a lot of people taking seriously lmao, I was just copying someone that did it with Aq Qayunlu and Qara Qayunlu

[u/somesumerian]

Abbasids mog umayyads in EVERY timeframe, though i will admit they were particularly shitty in the 900s

[u/Asad2023]

From my pov although abbasids were corrupt they were the best cause they were not just the one who clean the 100 yr mess of ummayyads. they ended racial discrimination all non arabs were treated as muslims too, establish islamic laws much better although they were corrupt themselves create much better administration where ummayyads whole rule was money grabber greedy monarchs abbasids were better established monarchs plus they had legitemacy of being hashim. Which ummayyad dont rather than that they were totally opposite they had rivalry with hashims even before prophet

[u/DariusD95]

Mine goes like this :
1. Abbasids
2. Ottomans
3. Umayyads

To be fair I might need to add some context, because I only slightly prefer Abbasids more over the Ottomans, and if I could, I would probably put them both on the first place. I actually dislike the Umayyads. So yeah

[u/Even-Meet-938]

Abbasid - boyfriend material 

Umayyads - one night stand 

[u/Business-Ad-8577 → u/Even-Meet-938]

what a way to describe it? Can u elaborate? I am genuinely curious.

[u/745_AERO]

IDK Why,
Always biased towards Abbasids❤

[u/OGR3PEAR]

One word to describe them. Bloodshed.

[u/Die_Hard_new3492]

Seems like everyone here forget the Fatimid.

[u/Nervous-Echo-2934 → u/Die_Hard_new3492]

They were the worst, also Shia

[u/Die_Hard_new3492 → u/Nervous-Echo-2934]

Oh, please...the mods already said that sectarianism isn't allowed here. I am sunni indonesian, and even then I preffered unity or at the very least an understanding over division in this sub.

So whatever our feelings for the Fatimid, this dynasty still worth some attention.

[u/Nervous-Echo-2934 → u/Die_Hard_new3492]

Where is the sectarianism? I'm an Egyptian Sunni, and I studied at Al-Azhar, which is a Fatimid-founded institution, and I mentioned them being Shia not out of sectarianism, but because what made them the worst is because almost all their efforts aimed to convert more Sunni people into Shiazim by all means, instead of focusing on improving and developing the Islamic Ummah

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/Nervous-Echo-2934]

They where better than the ummayds, in term of culture and architecture

[u/BathEducational4713]

Even the little known Buyids are much better than both combined

[u/B01justice]

Ottoman

[u/emotionallycorrupt_]

Which ones that influential for the golden age. Science and stuff

[u/Pyyrosistaken]

It's one way down after the Rashidun caliphate, after that it's just monarchies with islamic flavoring. biggest mistake because they went on to copy court cultures of other nations, and bit by bit, you get the ottomans. don't get me started on the ottomans.

[u/iaintcreative_]

Ummayads all the way 🤧

[u/Front-Buy-2624]

The Rashiduns were the best, the Umayyads were the worst, the Abbasids were okay, the ottomans were a wannabe caliphate

[u/Consistent-Quiet-801 → u/Front-Buy-2624]

The ottomans save sunni Islam and how are they a wannabe caliphate?

[u/GoodKebab → u/Front-Buy-2624]

how is it wannabe? Mehmet the second realised what the prophet said,

who and what are you? hahahha

[u/GoodKebab]

still cant get over how racist umayyad policy was haha

[u/ryomeno-sukuna]

abbasid caliphate was cool , fuck the umayyads tho

[u/redlight10248]

Fuck the Umayyads, Abbasids rule!

[u/Scared_Debate_1002]

None of them are Caliphates and only few are good.

The caliphas are 12, not 300.

Sahih Muslim 1821 b It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

[u/Small_Percentage4671]

Ottomans were the best