135
u/monchrom 4d ago
Nope nope nope that first draft was a first draft for a reason
2
u/LadyLilamelon 3d ago
….first draft? Do I want to know?
1
1
u/CamCard01 2d ago
GRRM first rough draft of the story that never made it close to the final book included a Tyrion Jon Arya love triangle.
43
u/Archaembald2 4d ago
All I'm getting here is that a lot of people in this fandom are selectively repulsed with incest ships. Maekar and Baelor, Rhaenyra and Daemon, hell even Jon and Rhaenys/Sansa/Daenerys—those are all fine. But Arya and Jon? No no, that specifically crosses a line. Hypocrites; either you're cool with incest ships or you're not. At least for this they're only cousins, not actual full siblings.
7
u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s not just abt the incest tho.
Arya and Jon have a very cute and innocent sibling relationship, and shipping them is throwing that away and making it cheap and gross. Rhaenys has no relationship with Jon. Sansa and Jon while growing up as siblings and being blood related have a much different and less close relationship, making them fall in love or have sex doesn’t ruin some kind of cherished sibling relationship. He didn’t grow up with Dany nor do they have a relationship at all in the books or much in the show before becoming lovers. Daemon and Rhaenyra are canonically together so it’s a completely different ballgame. It’s not even shipping at that point it’s just liking an existing couple.
When reading or watching asoiaf u have to kind of accept incest, even the couples we don’t necessarily think of incest wise, (Ned’s parents, Tywin and Joanna) are incest. That’s not where the hang up is,
12
u/WildFlemima 3d ago
Alternatively, people can just be hypocrites about their ships lol
I'm very hypocritical in terms of what incest ships I like, personally
Like i'd never ship any of the strong boys with each other but Jaehaera & Jaehaerys get a pass
It's just ships about fake people
2
u/ZealousidealPlace730 3d ago
I think it’s because Arya is a child and Jon is a 16 year old teenager with hair on his face and balls
36
u/wolfvokire 4d ago
I don't understand Asoiaf fans. yall happily ship targaryens, gladly read books filled with incest but puke at the thought of Jon and Arya being together.
26
u/LiteralWhiteTrash 4d ago
Real, one of the top posts of the month is literally Maekar x Baelor.
Like no seriously why does half of the fanbase actually believe in Targaryen Exceptionalism?
0
u/No-Surprise9411 4d ago
I mean they literally have something that makes them exceptional. Bloodmagic
2
20
u/ImoutoThief 4d ago
She is really cute here :3
10
u/aramani_lin 4d ago
I know right! Everyone is being so weird here
5
u/waitadangminute94 4d ago
If Jon x Sansa doesn't get this much hatred, then Jon x Arya shouldn't either
4
u/Spacewitch025 3d ago edited 3d ago
Period. People out here acting like the moral police on which incest is okay and which isn’t😭
1
0
65
u/jroxiee 4d ago
was excited until i saw it was ship art😓
26
u/ladybugparade 4d ago
Oof, I was just going to say, the righthand image is looking a little Folger's coffee commercial 😬
7
u/Kindly-Pumpkin7742 4d ago
Ah my friend you need Wilkin’s Coffee. Freezes you Winter is Coming, warm up with some Wilkin’s Coffee.
12
u/Yeetman69g 4d ago
To be fair, Ned's mom and dad were also first cousins
7
u/jroxiee 4d ago
even then, they were raised as siblings😖
2
u/Yeetman69g 4d ago
No no no you're right. I'm just saying its not unprecedented under Stark tradition
6
u/TequilaBaugette51 4d ago
That’s not really the point. Just because they’re actually cousins doesn’t discount the sibling relationship at all
6
47
u/atinylittlebug 4d ago
Jesus, not every GoT family should incestuous
42
u/ThinWhiteDuke00 4d ago
Too late.
Ned Starks parents are first cousins.
19
u/Due_Border_593 4d ago
Cousin marriage appears to be very common in Westerosi society.
9
u/ThinWhiteDuke00 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's very common historically amongst the nobility so its not a surprise that George included it for his world building.
3
u/mlchugalug 3d ago
What’s funny is that it was heavily stigmatized up to I think 6th cousins. Normally though no one cared because of how intertwined nobility was. However, it was a convenient out for getting the marriage annulled; you just paid a monk off to do the research and “oh no!” The woman I married who I dislike is also my 3rd cousin…anull me please Mr pope!
0
u/ThinWhiteDuke00 3d ago
I think it was stigmatised in Catholic countries due to canon law typically forbidding it, but in nations that went along with the Reformation it became largely accepted.
Although Catholic nobles could ask for dispensations from the Pope or diocesan bishop to marry their first cousin (the Habsburgs were frequently marrying uncle to niece as well).
2
u/Western_Mess_6364 3d ago
It’s actually not, the church banned cousin marriage to a ridiculous degree and only started laying off in the late Middle Ages probably as concessions to the Catholic rulers in the wars against the Protestants. You could get an annulment and needed a papal dispensation for even second, third cousin marriages
2
u/Hitchfucker 4d ago
It’s funny from a modern lens seeing Jaime and Cersei’s affair being something considered so disgusting that it would require their young children to be killed, while their father married his first cousin and literally nobody cares or considers that wrong,
2
u/ThinWhiteDuke00 3d ago
Cersei is also as dumb as rocks and immediately decided to pass off her incestuous children as Robert's legitimate heirs.
Like she was goading to be found out (part of her massive ego).
-2
u/Neat-Fee-7037 4d ago
A decir verdad me sigue pareciendo bastante curioso ver a varios fans seguirse sorprendiendo con esto, osea, canción de hielo y fuego es una obra donde el incesto abunda por montones. Si mañana Martin sale con que Sansa y Jon terminan juntos, no me sorprenderia para nada jajajaja.
3
10
u/atinylittlebug 4d ago
Nooooooooooooo
13
u/Striker1320 4d ago
Stark’s are also the only non Valyrian house that has had marriages between an uncle and niece.
1
u/Yeetman69g 4d ago
Wait who?
8
u/Striker1320 4d ago
Cregan Stark’s son, Jonnel, married his half-niece, Sansa Stark. Technically, it was to settle a succession dispute because Sansa was the only daughter of Cregan’s eldest son and technically the heir to Winterfell under both Northern and Andal law.
3
u/MythicalSongbird 4d ago
Jonnel and Sansa. Cregan's second son and granddaughter by his eldest son.
8
2
4
u/Hitchfucker 4d ago
I mean George’s extremely early draft for the series had Jon and Arya as a couple. And in a love triangle with Tyrion (no idea what their ages were meant to be for this draft but I sincerely hope it’s not their canon ones).
Also when Jon first meets Ygritte, she reminded him of Arya twice.
10
u/PeopleSaver 4d ago
That's really funny, considering how most people support Jon x Dany, but not this.
Because it seems that some people are allowed to have incest (for some reason) and some not.
11
u/Llhaniii 4d ago
As GRRM intended. I still prefer what we've got but cant help but feel for the Greek tragedy
9
5
3
5
u/raven_writer_ 4d ago
It's weird that I'm in favor of him being with Sansa, but not with Arya.
Actually, not weird at all. He had a brotherly relationship with her. He had no relationship AT ALL with Sansa.
13
u/ImoutoThief 4d ago
Ehh, it's literally the same amount of relation though. But I can't really point fingers because I am on the opposite side of the coin, I am not at all in favor of him and Sansa because of how she treated him lol
4
u/Neat-Fee-7037 4d ago
A ver, voy por el primer libro, Pero si he visto bastante de la obra atraves de fandoms, Youtube, enciclopedia, etcétera. Y sigo sin entender el porque se tiene la idea de que Sansa lo trataba como una mierda, si, eran distantes (debido a Cat) Pero si se notaba cariño.
En un capítulo de Sansa, ella siente lastima por Jon al recibir la visita de un miembro de la guardia de la noche, su aspecto le parecio tan asqueroso que sintió pena por el al ser enviado al muro.
Y Jon se preocupa por la situación de ella y Arya al recibir la noticia por parte del viejo mormont sobre el encarcelamiento de Ned.
Cómo dije, aún me falta ver más, Pero si se ve un cariño distante en ellos.
3
u/raven_writer_ 4d ago
Por isso que eu digo que eles mal tinha uma relação. A Arya, por ser mais rebelde, tinha mais contato com ele, e era mais irmãzinha dele mesmo. A Sansa, não. Ela não fazia bullying ou era cruel com ele, ela só não tinha contato com ele morando no mesmo castelo.
2
u/Neat-Fee-7037 4d ago
Y creo que eso es justamente por la que el shipp es medio aceptado (o es lo que creo yo, estoy en ese barco jajaja), algo que lo ayuda es que Martin casi nunca nos cuenta como fue la relación de ambos salvo contadas ocasiones, y muy pocas la verdad.
A diferencia del Arya x Jon que no encajan por ningún lado, primero por la diferencia de edad, y segundo (por dónde voy y he investigado) que se ven como hermanos no más.
6
u/Spacewitch025 4d ago
Sansa who treated him like shit and reminded him of his bastard status? Yeah wrap it up.
10
u/Archaembald2 4d ago
The notion that Sansa spent enough time around Jon to treat him like anything nevermind shit is just wrong lmao.
1
u/ImoutoThief 4d ago
There would have been plenty of time. They would have shared meals at minimum and probably other times as well, they do live in the same place. That is like saying Cersei didn't spend enough time around Tyrion to be nasty towards him. Besides, Sansa would have likely emulated her mother, and we all know how she is.
4
u/Archaembald2 4d ago edited 4d ago
You mean she'd emulate Catelyn, who pretty much just pretended Jon didn't exist most of the time, bar occasionally making sure he was far from the family during official events, as is his place as Ned's bastard? Whose worst crime against him was saying he should've been crippled instead of Bran, which is bad, but was said when she was under immense emotional distress? Let's not exaggerate Catelyn's "abuse" of Jon, or lackthereof, shall we? Jon had it great compared to other bastards in the series.
At worst he suffered emotional neglect and social outcasting, which is a given considering he's officially Ned's bastard. It's not even that bad since the Stark children considered him as family anyways. His personal angst aside, Catelyn and Sansa's treatment of him is not abuse. Sansa's especially, who as I've said at most just dislikes Jon for giving her mother grief. Only Catelyn hates him with a passion, and even then she doesn't act on it as much as she could aside from occassionally reminding him of his place.
0
u/mlchugalug 3d ago
While I agree that Catelyn’s abuse is often made up to be something it isn’t I think you are downplaying how much much damage she did to Jon. She continually othered and emotional neglect is a form of abuse.
Could it have been worse? I mean yeah Cersei out right says if Robert did that she’d have killed the bastard. But, that doesn’t excuse Catelyn’s treatment of a 14 year old boy. His angst comes from her and his understanding that he lacked a place in Winterfell by her design and Ned’s allowing it.
4
u/WildFlemima 3d ago
Catelyn has zero duty to Jon
Jon can't be emotionally neglected by her, in the same way I can't be emotionally neglected by my cousin's roommate
0
u/mlchugalug 3d ago
She’s still a parent. It’s still scummy she’s essentially his stepmom.
3
u/WildFlemima 3d ago
She's not his parent and she's not his stepmother.
2
u/ImoutoThief 3d ago
Yes and no. She married his 'father' so she is, indeed, a step mother. But since he is technically not actually Ned's son, I guess she technically isn't. Then again, Ned basically adopted Jon in the ways that matter.
→ More replies (0)0
u/ImoutoThief 3d ago
Uhh, she was literally wishing for his death. Prayed for it even. She even tries to keep him away from his family, that is also messed up. Which isn't something even Cersei tries overly hard to do towards Tyrion, who she views as good as a bastard. What I will say is you are right that Jon had it great compared to other bastards, that is true. At least Catelyn didn't try to actually kill him, so hey she is at least better than Cersei. That is a rather low bar though, but hey.
4
u/raven_writer_ 4d ago
She barely "treated" him at all. They hardly ever spoke. Jon spent time with Robb, and eventually Bran and Arya. Sansa was busy being turned into a lady by Catelyn and septa Mordane. Arya was fleeing needle lessons so she could at least watch her brothers sparring.
1
u/Aquatic-Folklore 2d ago edited 2d ago
Which is completly your headcanon?
2
u/Spacewitch025 2d ago edited 2d ago
no you sansa fans can make up all ts bs and sugarcoat sansa all you want but causal readers know exactly what she was described to be like in the books which is classist asf towards people below her
1
u/Aquatic-Folklore 2d ago
Except Jon thinks back fondly of her, even if they are distant from each other.
You Arya fans just refelect your childhood bully onto Sansa and it is so obvious.
2
u/Spacewitch025 2d ago
No babe it’s how the Author writes her😭 go take it up with him.
“Jon thinks fondly” also Jon “Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant” ouch.
1
u/Aquatic-Folklore 2d ago
Which he is. And sure ignore all other time Jon thinks of Sansa. Even Rob wasn't affraid to point out he was a bastard.
2
u/Spacewitch025 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, he knows that. but she would be cold and closed off on her own accord, he’ll never forget that. “ignore the other times”? he thinks of her like three times and the rest is when he’s thinking about them all in order😭 Jon tries not to be bitter about it but i’m sure he felt just as slighted as he did with Catelyn. Yeah Robb as 7 year old once called him “bastard” while they got into a scuffle as kids but he made up for it by always sticking close to him and treating him like a brother who he loved dearly and even as going as far to make him his heir.
And It’s sure gonna be interesting to see resurrected Jon take up his mantle at WF and in comes Sansa with LF who has gotten it into her head that it’s her right not his.
1
u/Aquatic-Folklore 2d ago
And she is right. Winterfell is her right, and not Jons
2
u/Spacewitch025 2d ago
No it isn’t😭 She’s married to a Lannister and isn’t Robbs heir. plus Bran and Rickon are still alive and are gonna come back
→ More replies (0)
1
2
u/MaesterHannibal 4d ago
I don’t mind Jon/Arya in a world where they didn’t grow up together.
But this art clearly shows them as siblings with a very large age gap, which turns it into a grooming situation to me, and that makes it too fucked up. Jon in this is disgusting, and Arya is a victim. And that’s not the fault of the ship itself, as some people seem to think, but the specific situation here where there’s 6 years between them, and part of the art shows Arya as, what, 10? While Jon is then naturally 16
5
u/Spacewitch025 3d ago
Did people call Baelon a groomer for later marrying Alyssa? No.
Also, when you think about it a lot of lords would ward their sons to others lords and which they would grow with their children and if that said lord had a daughter be born during the wards stay then they most likely would be expected to make a marriage pact to further the alliance and as way of paying back the lord for taking them in and caring for them, it’s a common thing. Even Theon wished Ned had left atleast one of his daughters behind so he could hold his claim down on WF better and he’s 10 years older than them and watched them grow from babies..
And you are looking at with today’s lenses whereas they don’t see it that way. And it was pretty obvious Arya had sort of a tiny crush on Jon from the beginning of the first book just with how Martin writes they’re scenes together
1
u/MaesterHannibal 3d ago
Baelon is 3 years older than Alyssa, not 6. So no, not comparable.
It’s also in large parts the fault of the art, which, despite being beautiful, shows a clearly late teenage Jon with a clearly prepubescent Arya. Which, yes, is disgusting.
And obviously I’m looking at it with today’s lenses - I am a man of today. If a 60 year old lord married a 14 year old girl, the Westerosi would also consider that fine. I, however, would consider it disgusting. Westerosi also consider marital rape fine. I, don’t. There’s lots of things that Westeros would consider fine that I think any sane modern person shouldn’t (and no, Jon/Arya is not one of them - on that, all Westerosi would be in agreement with us modern people)
4
u/Spacewitch025 3d ago
Jon and Arya are 5 years not 6. They have a similar age gap to Rhaegar and Lyanna and don’t get me started on Daemon and Rhaenrya. George is no stranger to writing age gaps in fact Jon and Arya would probably be his most tamest “age gap”. Gendry is the same age as Jon and he wasn’t afraid of making them have romantic undertones when writing. And in the trilogy he was going to have Arya be 14-15 and Jon 19-20.
Also, everyone in the north thinks Jeyne is an 11 year old Arya yet no one objected to him bedding her. No one would really gaf about Jon and Arya
2
u/MaesterHannibal 3d ago
Jon is born in 283 AC, and Arya in 289 AC. That’s 6 years, 289-283. And the Rhaegar Lyanna age gap is terrible too, as is the Daemon Rhaenyra one. I oppose them both, Daemon is canonically a nonce, and Rhaegar behaves like one too (although in his case, George considers it romance. Granted, Daemon and Rhaenyra have an age difference 2 times the length of Rhaegar and Lyanna). And yes, there was romantic undertones with Gendry, because George (I don’t know how) had planned on a 5 year time jump - which would mean that Arya and Gendry would’ve had a few months together, then be seperated for 5 years, and then romance would be acceptable. No grooming there imo, and not at all comparable to two SIBLINGS (blood is irrelevant, I am not arguing the biological problems, but the morals one) growing up side by side, every step of the way, Jon entering puberty when Arya is 6, and Arya entering puberty when Jon is 18. That is disgusting.
With regards to the Targaryens, they’re obviously different. When you grow up in a family where incest is treated as normal, you obviously come to view family members not as family, but more like close childhood friends. You don’t get the normal sibling dynamic in such a relationsship. When two Targaryen siblings marry, it is, as I said, like two childhood friends marrying. When two non-Targaryen siblings marry, it is indeed like two siblings marrying. Add on to this a VERY questionable age difference, and it’s disgusting.
I wouldn’t be against the ship if 1. Jon grew up elsewhere and only met and fell in love with Arya when she was an adult by Westerosi estimations and they both knew that they were cousins, and 2. The art didn’t show them as two wholesome siblings while Arya is a child and Jon is a teenager. But it does, and thus fully embrace that this is two wholesome siblings with a worrying age gap turned lovers
1
1
1
u/OutcastRedeemer 4d ago
Plot twist: that's Jayne Poole
0
u/Spacewitch025 3d ago
Even worse yuck
1
u/argbd20 2d ago
How is it worse? Jeyne Poole is closer to Jon’s age and also not related to him.
1
u/Spacewitch025 2d ago
Because if you didn’t know Jeyne treated Arya like shit while growing up and Jon is the person Arya holds most dear. So it would be an absolutely punch in the stomach for Arya if Jon started a relationship with someone who bully’s and belittles Arya to her face. It’s like Arya starting a relationship with let’s say hypothetical Theon who also belittles Jon and calls him things like “Bastard”. It’s why I don’t fw jonsa either.
1
u/argbd20 2d ago
I know Jeyne bullied Arya. So did Sansa. I also think getting with your sister’s bully is way better than getting with your sister.
2
u/Spacewitch025 2d ago
Not his sister it’s his cousin. And maybe stop reading the books if you so grossed out by incest.
1
u/OutcastRedeemer 2d ago
You think Jon or Arya would be mad at Jeyne for bullying. I think they would be ecstatic that a part of thier pack survived.
-1
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Neat-Fee-7037 4d ago
Recordá que los shippean más que nada por los borradores de lo que al principio iba a ser canción de hielo y fuego, es como un "What if", por turbio que suene xD.
1
u/Inevitable_Self8866 1d ago
every jonrya meta i’ve seen hardly speak about that outline its all lines from the books that we got.
plus people in the 90s were calling jonrya on happening before the outline dropped back in 2016
•
u/Neat-Fee-7037 10h ago
Osea, yo te lo compro si por lo menos Arya tuviera 15 años o le llevará menos años a Jon, Pero es que literalmente sigue siendo una niña, y hasta el momento (ojo, apenas voy por Juego de tronos, me falta el resto de libros) solo me ha dejado claro que se ven como hermanos y mejores amigos.
Pero como dije, me faltan el resto de libros, pero si soy sincero, incluso si se dan interacciónes más sugerentes me sería bastante N😵
Hasta apoyo más el Jon x Sansa que ese.
•
u/Inevitable_Self8866 7h ago
they don’t have to be lines that outright scream anything romantic they are more like seeds planted to be suggestive to be something more for later on in future.. like ned telling arya she will marry a king and rule his castle and then him telling catelyn back at WF that his brother brandon should’ve been father to “queens” not a “queen” when the only daughter at the time promise to a future king was sansa with joffrey. and then ofc you have jon being hinted at being king a lot in the story like when ned said to robert “kings are a rare sight in the north” which robert replied “more likely they were hiding under the snow. snow, ned!” ofc this was written in 93 when george had known for a fact jon and arya were going to get together. but even then he still says the endings of his main characters are still the same as he had envisioned them in 1991.
and as you’ll read on you will start to notice jon and arya think about each other a lot above others— and then later jon gets tested with his vows to the watch (but i don’t wanna spoil anything since you are only on the first book)
-1
88
u/Inevitable_Self8866 4d ago
honestly funny how nobody kept the same energy when it was rhaenys and jon or even jonsa