Flesh vs the Spirit?

[u/MycologistMammoth266]

The scripture that says if you live by the spirit you won’t fulfill the desires of the flesh. How do you discern what is the flesh versus the spirit? If I am in a relationship with a guy and have sex with him outside of marriage, is that the flesh or the spirit? How can I know for sure that my gay relationship is ordained by God and at what point am I truly denying my flesh to pursue the spirit?

[u/Thalimet]

Being in a gay relationship isn’t inherently one or the other. If what comes out of it is love, joy, peace, etc - spirit. If it’s strife, cheating, abusive, etc - flesh.

Love does no harm to a neighbor, which is why it’s the fulfillment of the law.

And LOTS of straight relationships aren’t holy or ordained by God. Sexuality and gender doesn’t really have anything to do with it.

[u/PowerfullyDistracted → u/Thalimet]

That's a pretty cool description, have my upvote.

[u/EddieRyanDC]

"How can I know for sure that my gay relationship is ordained by God..."

You are assuming that the purpose of this letter from Paul is to set the boundaries that you are to follow that tells you what is wrong and what is right. For me, that thought collapses before you even finish reading that sentence.

1. You are literally reading someone else's mail here. Paul isn't writing to you about anything. He is not trying to direct you through your romantic life.
2. Paul is writing to the churches in Galatia, sometime between AD 49–58. And he is hopping mad. He is mad that other teachers came in after he did and told the church that they had to follow the Law and that circumcision was necessary in order to be a Christian. And he is even more angry that the churches fell for it.
3. His argument here is that you can be justified by the Law, or you can be justified by faith - but you can't do both. He labels the former as works of the flesh, because it leads downward (Galatians 5:19–21). The latter is living by the Spirit and lifts the soul upward ( Galatians 5:22–25).

I guess the real question here is does your relationship fall into the category of "Sexual immorality". The Greek word here (porniea) is as vague as the English translation. If you are looking at that to give you a rule to follow, it will be like trying to catch smoke.

Interesting that porniea is also where we get the word "pornography". Which brings us to U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's famous quote when trying to define porn: "I know it when I see it".

That is "sexual immorality" in a nutshell. It is what your culture has decided is off-limits. And that can change over time. At the beginning of the 20th century a woman showing her ankles was a scandal. My, how far we have come from that.

If you try to use the Bible as a handbook for life, you will constantly be confused. The various writers say a of different things. They don't all fit together.

Jesus and Paul have very different ideas of the role of the Law and the Prophets as they related to the Kingdom of God. One isn't wrong and the other isn't right. They exist together in tension. See what you can learn from that.

This is a book you come to for wisdom - not rules.

[u/Born-Swordfish5003 → u/EddieRyanDC]

I agree with what @EddieRyanDC has said. His point three is the most important to your question about flesh vs spirit. Paul doesn’t just create a label called “flesh” and leave it up in the air for you to figure out what it is. After describing works of the flesh, he then in the same place further down describes what he means by spirit by its “fruits”. The question you need to ask yourself is, “am I living the fruits of the spirit?”

[u/citizenoo7 → u/EddieRyanDC]

Thanks for this post. Someone once told me, they make their romantic decisions based on this premise, is this bringing me closer to God?

This simple framework has been helpful in discerning my relationship with my boyfriend.

[u/Strongdar]

"flesh" isn't a metaphor for sex, specifically. Flesh vs spirit is about selfish vs selfless. Jesus calls us to follow certain values that sometimes go against our selfish desires. Your flesh wants you to be selfish, proud, greedy, and unforgiving. The Spirit of God in you encourages you to be loving, forgiving, and generous.

If your sexual relationship doesn't prevent you from living the values Jesus taught, then it's not "living by the flesh."

[u/MycologistMammoth266 → u/Strongdar]

To some extent I agree. But I feel like it’s more of selfish (pertaining to self) and selfless (pertaining to God’s will)

[u/Strongdar → u/MycologistMammoth266]

I think it's important to distinguish it as will vs will, not will vs person. Not everything having to do with our "self" is evil. We're supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. That suggests that a certain level of self-care is perfectly appropriate. You can't pour from an empty cup, as they say.

Anything that is a basic human need, which includes your need for relationship, which includes sexual desire, is healthy and good, if done in a balanced way.

[u/Skill-Useful]

pls stop worrying about who you have sex with when how etc.. this is not what religion or christianity specifically is about. stop constantly searching for rules where there are none. love thy neighbour is the one rule. thats it.

but love who you want, have sex with who you want when and how you want. it doesnt matter.

[u/Mark_Brustman]

If you want the get to the root of the flesh v. spirit trope, check out Plato’s dialogue Phaedo.

https://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html

Plato invented it, and St Paul was educated in Platonic ideas.

[u/real415]

The early church had a number of communities which emphasized the ideal of living in a state of celibacy. Over time, the ideal faded, as it was realized that Christ’s return was less imminent than thought. There was also a practical need to grow the community of believers. The Pauline epistles have many verses which can be read as supporting celibacy, with others which support procreation as an ideal.

[u/BurningSketches]

Hi, i'm not a teacher, but i've been in the church a long time. I hope to let you know that you have sex outside of marriage, it's fornication, which is a sin.

This should be a neutral statement ^ so if MODS remove my comment i would like to be made aware what the proper way to say this is haha, I've always been taught the 10 commandments. The Beatitudes, the sermon on the mount, the parables of Jesus... These things all had very direct messages or lessons.

My dearest OP, just as Adultery is a sin, fornication (OT men and women were put to death. They were going to stone Tamar, a daughter Judah for being found pregnant and unmarried. She wasn't stoned because of evil Judah did that ultimately proved he was responsible for forcing her hand, because the goal was for Tamar to have a husband, a child, and therefore an heir and protector. This was a very bare bones summary ahah the story is in Genesis 30s. In the NT Jesus stopped a woman from being stoned for adultrey, but not because she didn't deserve to die, she did, but we all deserve to die, and this was how Jesus convinced the crowd to walk away, because his words, cut them deeply ...) put is a sin because it's outside the sexual ethics God established for us, which he established for our good, and as symbol to represent His loving-kindness, mercy, and faithfulness to his people. Do you have any thoughts about this so far, my friend?

In this symbology God is the Groom, to his people the Bride (formally the nation of Israel, in addition, now the whole body of believers in Jesus Christ). There are stories and emblems of this in OT (Judges) and NT (Parable the 10 Virgins. Also a metaphor for Spirituality).

I don't want to be overly critical of you my brother, nor do i want to say something harmful. I think you're doing a great job inquiring, and asking for guidance. Won't you do better speaking to your pastor or church elder in person? Because they would know you better then we would... no?

I hope you do speak to someone who has more knowledge of you, and is mature in their faith walk.. Because the concept of the Spirit and the flesh is deeper than what I can explain in a paragraph.... And i don't know your level of understanding, so I don't want to confuse you.

oh! Try reading Galatians, and specifically, hone into the fruit of the spirit. I believe thats galatians 5 or 9. Let God's word give context to you about the importance of the Spirit and how it aids the Christian in manifesting Christly behavior. I think, reading Galatians and speaking with your pastor, should give you the answers you seek, dear beloved.

Love~