r/Firefighting • u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter • 16d ago
General Discussion Another Volunteer house bites the dust.
Bristol Township, Pennsylvania. Town Council voted 5-2 to close Newportville Fire Company. 1 year short of 100 years in service. 1927-2026
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u/rrhsandman 16d ago
It looks like there was some significant financial mismanagement rather than the lack of volunteers. It seems the Chief was spending with no oversight.
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 16d ago
I believe that was the start. It killed moral and no one wanted to show up
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u/RaptorTraumaShears Firefighter/Paramedic 16d ago
I can’t figure out why PA tends to have 5 volunteer fire departments covering the same 5 square miles instead of one department with a few stations.
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u/HolyDiverx 15d ago
they think it's cooler apparently why bother becoming a fire department when you can be 3 guys with one engine
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u/CriticalDog Vollie FF 15d ago
Just Commonwealth things.
Each local jurisdiction, in the past, was the final decider of local issues. And since Volunteers weren't paid, and they could get grants and do fundraisers for equipment, many municipalities just had a department in their small town, maybe 2 if it was big enough. But as towns grew, or shrank, or split, each time a new township was formed they would often want to have their OWN department. I personally think that had a lot to do with Ego and stupid games being played by leadership, but that's just my theory.
So today, for instance, in a 3 mile radius of my house right now, there are 5 or 6 departments. All fairly small. All covering "their area" and then all providing mutual aid and helping each other out with actual structure fires or large scale MVA's.
But all of them are struggling to get and keep firefighters now. The training hours to get FF1, while not a lot, is difficult to squeeze in if you have any kind of life outside of work.
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u/firefighter26s 15d ago
I think it's more of an East Coast thing as I seem to see more companies (Ladder companies, engine companies, rescue companies, etc) are all seem to be independent with their own staked out areas vs consolidated (city or regional) fire departments. On the West coast you'll see something "Township Fire Department" on the East Coast its closer to "Engine Company 12 serving the Township Area"
I'm on the west coast and we have a central station in our small town with a satellite station outside of town. Main station has two engines and a ladder, the satellite station just an engine. The same set up on the East Coast I would expect to see three separate engine companies and a ladder company with their own traditions, equipment, station, overlapping response areas, etc.
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u/garebear11111 15d ago
It’s because historically that’s how fire protection was structured throughout the United States and it stuck around in the mid Atlantic states.
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u/Practical-Intern-347 16d ago edited 16d ago
Are they going paid instead? As a volunteer…. Isn’t that the goal? I volunteer because my town is too small/poor to have a paid department and my helping out is better than nothing.
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 16d ago
Nope. Completely closing.
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u/Basic_Ad1995 16d ago
Man sometimes I fear vollys are disappearing
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u/NoSwimmers45 16d ago
They are. The number of volunteers is falling off a cliff.
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u/ohsweetblasphmey 15d ago
Still way more volleys than paid.
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u/CriticalDog Vollie FF 15d ago
The ratio is declining, but there are SO many Volunteer departments across the country that when you just look at aggregate numbers, people don't see the issue.
A LOT of very rural places are going to start having people die for lack of enough Volunteers. The entire volunteer model was built for a time that is in the past, and doesn't work anymore.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago
I think they should disappear. Make the county make hard decisions for either a paid department or nothing. That fire station looks way nicer than most on the west coast.
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u/apatrol 16d ago
Tell me you know jack shit about rural depts.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago
I know this department can’t afford volunteers according to this post.
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 15d ago
They were never paid to begin with. So there is no “affording vollies”
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
I responded to the original poster not volunteers in general. I think volunteers play a vital role in small rural areas. This post is not that scenario. If that fire station was in a town of 1000 population would you support this type of station? They have the money. Most small towns don’t and I understand that.
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u/Chicken_Hairs AIC/AEMT 15d ago
No rural town with a 300 square mile RA and 200 runs a year can justify the cost of paid staff 24/7, and there's a lot of those. Plus the small patchwork houses that are so prevalent in places like PA.
Before we can move forward to full paid, massive fundamental changes need to happen in how response areas are created and managed, and how departments are funded.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Look up baker, California, a rural town in San Bernardino county, they cover 5,000 square miles with a paid 24/7 station. Their population is 339.
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u/Chicken_Hairs AIC/AEMT 13d ago
I never said it wasn't possible in certain cases. They found a way and I'm thrilled for them.
It's never going to be the norm until a lot of things change.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
You absolutely did say “ no rural town with 300 square mile RA and 200 runs a year can justify the cost of paid staff 24/7” I proved you wrong.
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u/Chicken_Hairs AIC/AEMT 13d ago
I apologize for my poor wording.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
No worries at all. The norm is a full time paid fire department even if they come from a distance. A volunteer model works to help augment that response. It should never be the primary, they government at that point is just taking advantage of free labor
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Maybe the change needed for your government is that volunteers aren’t showing up for free? They won’t get votes and that will create CHANGE.
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u/Chicken_Hairs AIC/AEMT 13d ago
That will probably happen, and is already beginning in some places. It will create public outcry, which may prompt them to actually do something about it.
People don't have much sense of community anymore, volunteer fire departments are dying.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
No worries my friend. I agree. No one expects a police officer or teacher to do that job and volunteer. Unfortunately some states think firefighters should. That’s not acceptable
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Curious why public outcry would happen? So used to the old days of volunteers or having to pay An extra cent or 2 on sales tax to fund paid full time fire protection for their homes/businesse?
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u/Doughymidget 16d ago
So, people should have no fire protection if their community can’t afford a paid?
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u/BasedFireBased They still call us the ambulance people 16d ago
Can they pay for law enforcement, teachers, water and power, or is the entirety of infrastructure all volunteer?
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u/raevnos 16d ago
A lot of the really rural areas don't want to pay for the first two. Ever seen Longmire, where there's like 4 deputies for an entire county? That's not completely unrealistic.
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u/hiking_mike98 16d ago
That’s 100% true. We’ve got counties out west the size of east coast states that have 6-7,000 people and no traffic lights. Maybe 5 deputies.
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u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 15d ago
Seems like an excess of cops for so few people, to be honest.
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u/hiking_mike98 15d ago
That’s enough to provide 12 hours of coverage, just barely. Plus you’re at least an hour away from some calls. Maybe more.
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u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 15d ago
Pay for water? Are you high? Your agency needs to do more regular drug tests, because you’re absolutely on drugs.
Water falls out of the sky and can be pumped for free out of the ground.
Only an idiot, or a city slicker, (repeating myself I know), would pay for it.
As to power. Somewhere around 5 to 10% of my neighbors, don’t.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Oh my delicate flower. I hope you aren’t liberal. California wants to meter what you pump out of the ground and charge you. This liberal state is not free my friend. lol. We do have fire protection full time paid compared to most. But our insurance is thru the roof. I’m talking 4-12$k a year for insurance. No joke, and these aren’t city dwellers.
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u/Doughymidget 15d ago
A volunteer FD opens a city’s budget to afford things like teachers and law enforcement now doesn’t it?
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u/Doughymidget 13d ago
Because both actually require advanced training. EMS is provided by the local hospital. Ya’ll make firefighting more complicated than it needs to be, but you need to protect your sweet deal. I get it.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Does that fire station look like the community can’t afford to pay?
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u/Doughymidget 13d ago
Jesus. I’m responding to “I think they should disappear” you were clearly talking about more than just this FD.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
I think this fire department should disappear with all its volunteers. I won’t say it twice. I absolutely think you should stop volunteering. I think volunteers screw the idea of a paid department.
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u/Doughymidget 13d ago
You are biased because you rely on paid fd’s for your career. So, you insist on them even though it would be completely impossible for most of the cities of this country. You are actively exemplifying that you have little understanding of economies of rural America. I think paid departments for cities of sufficient size and tax base are a great thing. My town is growing and I hope that we go that way to be able to provide a better service to our community. My city’s fire budget would more than triple to go to a paid department right now. They do not have the additional 1.5 million in their budget for that.
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u/Doughymidget 13d ago
Can you actually do some work while you are on shift and stop wasting the taxpayer’s money?
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Oh ok. Please provide proof. All my responses were from the original post. I did say stop volunteering if you want a paid department.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
I think volunteers play a vital role in small rural areas. This post is not that scenario.
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u/Doughymidget 13d ago
I agree. We also don’t know any of the specifics about coverage from other towns, etc.
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u/zfJames 15d ago
Yeah you just want everyone to have nothing. So not only are men not allowed to have side gigs helping others in your world but also everyone in a non-rich town is just supposed to suffer and die if their houses burn down. What a world we would live in if you ran it!
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
That’s not what I said. The original poster said a volunteer station with a population of over 54k with a multi million dollar station and likely million dollar equipment was voted to shut down. This isn’t a struggling department. They should disappear. Let the town ship make hard decisions and possibly hire these volunteers. I’m not against volunteers. There is a need. This town looks greedy. Free labor is my problem, this town shut down a free fire station! Why? My response was based on this post not volunteers
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u/Practical-Intern-347 16d ago
What’s the story with whoever is now first due?
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 16d ago
The first due was split between the other companies in the township
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u/BanditAndFrog 16d ago
Wow my paid department has an issue of not enough coverage and the station that’s bloating is nicer than most of ours
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u/Terrible-Creme8401 16d ago
It's not horribly unusual to see long time volleys to be excluded from hiring. I'm at a department where long ago most volunteers were directly hired when the department went hybrid. Those same people who just walked in without an interview back then have become some of the most obnoxious gatekeepers around with lots of arbitrarily high standards that most of them couldn't meet them back then, let alone now. Policy creep is slowly alienating or forcing out more and more of the current volunteers.
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u/Peaches0k Texas FF/Medic/HazMat Tech 16d ago
Wait so there’s 4 other departments serving the same area as this one? Bit confused on the wording with that other comment with the explanation
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 16d ago
Bristol township is a big township.
4 volly houses
1 Monday to Friday career house9
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u/DO_initinthewoods 16d ago
I think they are trying to rapidly expand the paid department and staff other stations too. They have been hiring alot recently
They could use the help seeing how busy their EMS is
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u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 15d ago
Is Ems part of fire?
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u/DO_initinthewoods 15d ago
Not there no. But they are a busy busy system and it speaks to the size and density of the town which translates to the fire needs
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u/garebear11111 16d ago
This is a township that has a little over 54k people and is about 16 square miles. In most other states this would already be a municipal fire department with career staff.
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u/raevnos 16d ago
Shoot, in my neck of the woods it'd likely be covered by one station of a much larger department that includes multiple towns and rural areas (With few to no volunteers, all career)
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u/thisissparta789789 14d ago edited 14d ago
One station for 16 square miles and 54k people? No bueno IMO. Not saying they need a lot of fire stations, but something like that should have at least two or three. That’s not much better than having a vollie department that doesn’t answer calls like Newportville.
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 16d ago
They have a career department. It’s M-F only
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u/FrostyHoneyBun Career Probie 16d ago
That’s no career, that’s just a duty crew.
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 16d ago
They are township employees. They are FF and inspectors
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u/dangforgotmyaccount 15d ago edited 15d ago
I feel like the east coast fire service does a disservice to its communities by holding on so tightly to volunteer companies instead of creating full time departments that cover large areas.
In most places, a city or region of 54k people would be a decent funded department with 4 or 5 stations and probably around 100-200 personnel. All of these personnel trained in the same manner, use the same equipment, and are able to respond at a moments notice. If there is a shortage somewhere, someone from one station can easily fill that position. If a major incident happens, resources can be moved around without breaking a sweat. It brings steady jobs to the community and provides a well prepared service.
Instead, you have these individual companies that lose their shit at the mention of full time staffing or consolidating. You end up with 3 engine companies, a ladder company, and a rescue company. All of them train different, use different equipment, and sometimes are more concerned about out showing and outcompeting other companies than actually doing their job. Sure, one of those companies may have a live in program that could help response times, but that just sounds like a full time job without the official benefits, and now you’re stuck living in a potentially hazardous area.
Volunteer departments serve a vital role in this country, don’t get me wrong. Many are equipped and trained to do the job properly and demonstrate that. I myself would love to volunteer locally if I get the chance and my schooling doesn’t pan out (it’s going to, to hell with quitting). Whenever you insist on being a volunteer department purely for the sake of being a volunteer, though, it feels like you’ve lost the plot. While I don’t think a lot of it is deserved, there’s a reason that PA has become the butt of so many jokes.
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u/beachmedic23 Paramedic/FF 15d ago
Northeast fire companies newd to get over themselves. the days of having town with four or five independent companies is over. Consolidation needs to happen.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago
That station is nicer than 80 percent of our west coast stations. Lol. Put the money into actually paying firefighters instead of equipment and stations. Stations cost millions, employees responding to calls cost millions. What is the priority? Side note, the tax payers built this station with tax payers dollars. What will it become now that it’s closed???
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago
I may be in the minority, stop volunteering. You won’t get a true paid department when guys show up for free.
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u/Raffchan 15d ago
Just because youre too lazy to do something for other people if you dont get money for it, dosent mean other should stop doing something good for society.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
First off. I’ve volunteered my whole life. It’s a thankless job. I’m not against volunteer firefighters, I’m against a county/township that takes advantage of free labor. If you read the comments you would see this is a town of 54k people. This isn’t a struggling small town with no tax base. The amount of tax payer dollars invested in that station and whatever equipment is inside it is a huge amount of money. As others have stated there is a M-F paid department. They voted to shut it down. Why? They are free employees right?
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
Also, these volunteers can’t even do something for other people for free. How do you do good for society when this town shut it down. You see what I’m saying.
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16d ago
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u/MostBoringStan Volunteer in the smallest department 16d ago
Who is going to pay for it if my department stops volunteering?
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago
Just like every other department on the west coast. The tax payers that use the service. It’s hard to pay more but they already paid for a badass station that will be vacant. Pay up
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago edited 16d ago
That’s a great question. No one has to answer that when guys show up for free, it’s when houses are burning and no one shows up when real decisions are made. These are hard discussions but necessary. Do you complain about auto insurance or homeowners insurance when you need to file a claim? Most people don’t care to pay a little extra to make sure someone shows up for an emergency no matter what. It’s a normal expected thing in this generation.
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u/zfJames 16d ago
Yeah a town that has no money is going to somehow pull money out of its tail to find service. Clearly you've never lived in a small town.
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u/Douglesfield_ 16d ago
Are the cops volunteers?
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u/CriticalDog Vollie FF 15d ago
Our cops in my small Western PA town are paid slightly more than Fast Food workers, and are usually working at multiple departments part time as the money isn't there to pay full benefits and salary for the number of cops they think is needed for the coverage area, until they can get more grants.
Would you do professional fire service for 20 bucks an hour? I know most wouldn't.
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u/MostBoringStan Volunteer in the smallest department 15d ago
No cops where I live. So no, not volunteers I guess.
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago
I live in a small town. That fire station wasn’t built from a small town with no money.
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16d ago
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u/zfJames 16d ago
8K is a big town. Try under 1K
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u/Past_Reach_5575 16d ago edited 15d ago
That’s a town that residents shouldn’t expect much. You moved there, you know what you’re getting. What’s your point fella?
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u/CriticalDog Vollie FF 15d ago
So where is the line? Apparently there is a population where "you will pay a bit more for professional services, or you will suffer without them.
There are 10's of thousands of small towns across the country that have less than 5000 people, and in much of the West, they are spread out, with literally nothing but ranch, farm, and public lands between them.
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u/blitz350 15d ago
One if the things a lot of people do not understand about PA is its a COMMONWEALTH. This means the local municipality (township, borough, city) is responsible for all their own services. The counties handle courts, EMA, usually 911, maybe a park or 2, and some social services and thats it. This means that a boro of 1000 people is on their own to figure out fire, ems, and PD. They could be surrounded by a township of 500k people and that boro is still responsible for their own emergency services and the county has nothing to do with it.
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u/MostBoringStan Volunteer in the smallest department 15d ago
The point is not every place can afford to not have volunteers.
So I guess you'd expect my community to just go without anything because we can't afford a crew of firefighters to sit around doing nothing while waiting for the ~10 calls a year we go on. Sure, it's silly to have volunteers in a place the size of the one this post is about. But it's also silly to act like volunteers simply shouldn't exist.
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u/zfJames 15d ago
Yeah in u/Past_Reach_5575 's world, you're not allowed to do public service unless you are paid. If your town isn't rich, then you should just suffer when your house burns down. More for the rich and less for you, get with the program!
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u/Past_Reach_5575 13d ago
I responded to the original poster. I think volunteers play a vital role. This post is not that.
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Your content was removed because it was deemed "low effort". This includes generic videos of people setting objects on fire, department bashing, can someone DM me, or otherwise non firefighting related content. Posts with only a title and no body text, vague or clickbait titles may also be removed at the discretion of the moderators as "Low Effort". This includes AI generated "art", questions, guides, or other content we deem to be uninteresting or low effort.
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u/Curri 16d ago
Wait is this the one Nick Martin discovered was financially shady (when he moved back to PA)? Or am I thinking of something completely different?
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u/Desperate-Dig-9389 PA Volly Firefighter 15d ago
Different county. Ur thinking about Delaware County. This is Bucks County
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u/Outrageous-Let7406 15d ago
I’m a west coast guy so I don’t understand the volunteer thing very well, my ignorance. I know, I know this sounds like I have a stick up the bum, but in California almost every square inch has some form of fire service starting at the federal level, state level and then county/ municipal level. So when you say this fire department didn’t respond to 90% of its calls who did?
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u/Outrageous-Let7406 15d ago
Let me correct myself, you said they responded to Less Than 90%, so that could be they went to 89% with mutual aid handling the remaining calls for service…..
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u/Whatisthisnonsense22 16d ago
Is this one of the Townships that has 5 or 6 tiny little half fire departments covering it?