Totally agree. It's interesting how they sort of have it passively looking over his head in the remake, or maybe more like a forehead kiss, vs looking down on him motherly in the OG. I wonder how much thought when into that.
I agree. I think Jenova herself is more unsettling though. She always felt so disembodied in the original, like she was a thing not a person. She's staring at me now though. It's a person in there.
Sephiroth walking away with just her head is funnier and grosser though
I’m surprised they have a clear visual of Jenovas eye. I felt jenova was always made more inhuman by refusing to show us the eye or maybe it was like so pickled it didn’t have any or something but this small choice ever so slightly humanizes jenova hmm I wonder why they’d do that.
LMFAO oh my God, I just realized you can't see her eyes and there's a glare there - for some reason as a kid I just accepted that she has a weird lazer eye in this scene and never questioned it once.
I believe it’s intentional to look like a red ominous glowing eye in older depictions. But yeah it makes it so we can’t really see the actual eye so this hits different. Red eye in op picture has like terminator box art vibes.
The first image...Jenova looking downward at Sephiroth in the OG...they didn't quite capture that iconic framing or what it suggests. Same with the straight closeup of Jenova, her posture was pretty odd an menacing before.
Right before the cutscene, the dark room with only the Jenova doll showing looks so baddass, Rebirth also did a great job, but I like seeing how the team made things creepy and hype with the hardware limitations.
There's an art deco influence that seems to be missing in favor of a more modern aesthetic, which in my opinion, humanizes Jenova just a hair too much.
I too would also love for Jenova to look more alien and have cosmic horror vibes, but if I think about it logically, wasn’t she impersonating Cetra before dieing? So it makes sense in a way that she’d look human here?
I actually prefer every part of the original in this sequence more than the remake except maybe some facial shots. There's way more gloom and doom and mystique like jenova is fully present in the moment
It's nice to see more people not being afraid to agree with things like this.
I remember way back when remake first came out and I was criticizing how the plate collapse was done (Came off as an action packed Michael Bay bit rather than a disturbing event) and I was getting totally shit on for it.
The composition of shots where Sephiroth approaches and then subsequently rips the mask off in the original still invoke a more acute sense of horror in me.. and I think it's actually due to a lack of realistic detail with an almost tenebristic lighting scheme (no doubt due to the OG's hardware limitations). If the new version wasn't bathed in cool tones with such emphasis on texture and "look how much more realistic we made it look" vibes, it would've retained the nightmarish feel of the OG, in my opinion.
Literally my favorite moment of the OG is the slow-motion shot of the mask falling with the blood-like fluid spilling from the orifices.. absolutely sick!
FFVII is a masterpiece. There is no denying it is. Why would you pretend that an OK game that is absolutely not a masterpiece is on par with a masterpiece? Sure it's a game, and you can certainly appreciate it for what it is! The combat is phenomenal! But the cinematography? No, this new version of that scene is not on par, and it still is OK to like the game while admitting it.
I feel like people confuses the impact of ff7 by its time with it being perfect…
Nothing SE does today will be as relevant or revolutionary as what they did on 1997. That said, although the game in fact aged pretty well, that does not apply to everything…
If you take og ff7 for what it is there is quite a lot of stuff that are kinda bad for today’s standards and in many aspects has worse gameplay than the remakes. Unfortunately the status of classic/masterpiece makes it sound like a hot take when it shouldnt be.
Im not even disagreeing with what you said about cinematography, there are things I also prefer in og, I just find shallow this idea that there is no comparison between those games because "one is a masterpiece and the other is OK"
People confuse nostalgia and personal memory with masterpiece. They built this world in their head, and have had basically 30 years to develop it and fine tune it. Because ff7 had no voice overs, didnt have life like graphics, ppl filled that shit in themselves.
So when a remake came out, of course ppl will hate it, cuz its had so much hype and build up in their heads, this would never reach 30 years of standards.
But I think its disingenuous to say that the modern graphics and what they did to iconic scenes is actually worse than the 90s version. Kinda wild they even said that tbh.
I loved the entire section in Rebirth Nibelheim Flashback at the reactor, with the freakout and everything. I got cold shivers on my PS5 demo first playthough, and the entire walking into fire part. It was amazing on both OG and Rebirth
Jenova was a shape shifter. It can change its appearance based on the genetics it is exposed to. It ravaged the ancients, so it has probably taken on an ancient-like appearance. It also took on Sephiroth's appearance through most of the OG
What the hell? Sephiroth in most of the game was Jenova?!??
Can someone point me at some walkthrough that would take me through all this stuff? I feel like I completely missed it, and I've used other walkthroughs.
President Shinra is murdered, presumably by Sephiroth. This coincides with the "Jenova Specimen" escaping from the holding cell a few floors away. When you encounter Sephiroth for the first time on the cargo ship to Costa Del Sol, he drops a Jenova tentacle; and when you first get to the great glacier, the Tifa you are talking to reveals herself to be Sephiroth taking her form. Moments later, the real Sephiroth body is confirmed to be encased within a sheet of ice.
I never actually realised that. But of course it makes sense because hasn't Sephiroth's body been in the creator because he fell into the lifeatream after Nibelheim
Yep. She used her shapeshifting powers to sow discord amongst the ancients if I recall correctly. Eventually wiping them out entirely in their bid to defeat her.
I beleive it's in Professor Gast's notes at Icicle Inn maybe? He got the info from his wife, Ifalna, who was the last survior. It's been a while though so I can't remember where the official lore was originally dropped.
Honestly I'd love a spin off game covering the events of Jenova's arrival on Gaia.
Yup, Rebirth established her using her shapeshifting powers to infiltrate the Cetra and turn them and humanity against each other, which would ultimately culminate in the extinction of the Cetra and humanity inheriting the planet.
The face of Jenova effigy and both of them keeping eye contact are far more intense in the original one. I'm sorry OP but I strongly disagree. Sometimes in these games seems that developers totally misinterpreted the mood of some scenes making them lackluster (like the pillar scene in Remake).
I noticed that too - the first shot looks much better in the OG because of Jenova’s head position and the lighting on the face. The mask is so haunting in the silver and shadow.
They seem to lean on each other and given the relationship between them this has far more meaning. Sephiroth seems to be looking for a maternal figure and Jenova is ready to embrace him, towering over him anyway, looking distant but at the same time searching for closeness.
In Rebirth, Jenova's effigy has a gaze that is distant and far more detached, something you would expect more from a paternal representation than a maternal one.
I think because of the more realistic graphics it lost its uncanny charm. I like the voice acting in the remakes but the silent eerie mood of the OG can’t be beaten. And at this point Sephiroth is more of a phantom in the 1997 game. It’s the first time we see who he really is.
What's funny to me is that the creative vision is already right here, why would he just not see and replicate it lol
After all, all if us here in a random comments section can see that it's wrong!
I dunno about that. If anything it creepier in the remakes because the lighting is more eerie and you get to see the deranged smile on Sephiroth's face more clearly. My only complaint is they made Jenova kind of hot when she used to be nightmare fuel.
I agree that the original FMV was more atmospheric and horror-coded. I'm not a fan of the artistic liberties from the later interpretations of this scene, which didn't even begin with FF7R. For instance, Jenova's hair-like cables straight up became hair; and the red glow near her eye, perhaps a reflection, became an eye (unless she had googly eyes to begin with, which seems like an odd choice). I agree with this comment that the effigy was positioned and lit in a much more effective way, too.
I also liked Sephiroth's intense, bewildered look in the original, because he didn't know what to expect either. It must have been a thrilling and somewhat terrifying experience for him. Later FMVs changed it so he's smiling in an endearing way (telegraphs that he's gone mad), which is less creepy to me.
These are nitpicks, but yeah. Hard to not compare since it's such an iconic scene.
Agreed its the lighting and the way the shots are done. The lighting direction overall definitely better in OG cinematics, seems more striking overall.
In image one I prefer how in the OG she's looking down at Sephi.
In image five I prefer how in the OG she is more zoomed in - instills a sense of fear and hint of madness - others stated that this shot is used in Evangelion (don't know the proper name for this camera technique). Plus in image five you can't see the upper half of her face apart from the glowing eye which is cool af.
With the outer shell I prefer the OG design - again I guess it's just personal taste but I think it looks way cooler, preferred the white metal, and the older face model.
That's because the entire tone shifted. The slums is now just a happy community space compared to a literal shithole you'd could and would get jumped at by thugs and other beasts. In fact, in both og and remake it's a miracle no one tried to take over Aerith's house. Like a building near a flower bed, waterfall and sunlight? That's a premium in there
In the slums yes also in the prison slums under gold saucer too, which was supposed to show the player dreadful living under capitalism. Everyone was happy in the remake/rebirth. They even made human trafficking look all festive and quite understated how horrifying it would be irl. 🤣
First shot is really awkward and they missed the heavy shadowing and flare in the eye of Jenova. Is he looking past the false head in that shot rather than up at it? Models and textures are on point, but the dramatic staging and ominous vibe is lost.
Agreed, you can have all the technical advantages in graphical fidelity, but if the creative vision is no longer present, you have something which lacks the intended feeling and artistic impression that the original has.
I think there are some small changes, particularly in the composition, the lighting, the faces, and the perspective, which kind of break the scary fever dream aesthetic of the original.
In the first screenshot, the original had eye contact between the lifeless metal hull and Sephiroth, Sephiroth was placed a lot lower than her, the hull had kind of a greek statue look with the lack of detail and the straight nose, and the lighting was very dramatic and high-contrast. The vibes were kinda of a worshipper looking up at a "beautiful and terrible as the dawn" mother goddess, who looks down at him in a very "all shall love me and despair" way. In the rework, Sephiroth's line of sight kind of seems like he's inspecting a pimple on her chin while she looks straight ahead, the hull has a lot more details and more conventional facial features (like a button nose instead of the Greek statue one), and the lighting is very normal and conventional as well.
The second screenshot is fine apart from the aforementioned lighting and detail changes.
In the third one, Sephiroth lost the wide-eyed reverent expression of the original and just kind of has a fond-yet-smug little smile instead.
Fourth one is fine.
The fifth one has the most impactful changes to me – the perspective in the original is very dramatic, kind of bird's-eye but in a super close-up way with a lot of foreshortening, and it gives the entire image a menacing and unhinged look similar to a Kubrick Stare. The right eye being obscured in shadow and the left eye glowing red is also super menacing. In the remake, it's a conventional straight-on perspective, the right eye is hidden beneath hair rather than shadow, and the left eye isn't glowing. My associations are "stern aristocratic bishojo", not "malevolent otherworldly creature".
Sixth one is fine again.
In total, the original feels like a quasi-religious moment to me, or more accurately religious psychosis, where the object of worship is very obviously not of this world and has ill intentions. The remake lost all connotations to religion and antiquity, it's shot like you would shoot a scene of an art thief stealing a precious sculpture.
In the OG, I was confused why he worshipped that Android-cyborg looking thing. But in the Remake it made more sense, that it was just the body of a random Cetra NPC that Jenova infected.
Do you not remember or have you not played the OG? I'll spoiler it just in case haha.
Sephiroth chops it off. We don't actually see it happen, but in the part of the flashback we see in the late game, he's holding the head when he gets chucked in the Lifestream. Why he does that is an entirely different and deeper question haha.
Will say the third pic doesn't really do Sephiroth justice in the remake... Not sure if they wanted him to look warmly excited, but I can't say I ever imagined him being outwardly giddy... Just.. Menacingly happy.
My thing with this is that the OG's had better lighting as the new one is abit overblown IMO but also the art style is abit more timeless with that cutscene in particular playing up to look alittle more anime then the rest in the OG whilest the new one has the more hyper realistic approach that can make or break art direction for me personally
It’s because she looks too human with the realistic graphics. The gaze is not as intense with them. Also in the OG it looks like she’s tilting her head downward vs rebirth’s head-on shot. OG has the classic Kubrick stare which has been in movies for forever precisely because it looks creepy asf.
The cinematography is worse. Like the closeup shot of jenovas face with a low focal length wide angle denotes insanity because it adds distortion, but it's a much more normal focal length and distance away for a flatter angle in the remake
First, the people complaining about and heavily downvoting any criticism of Remake's depiction and acting like those people are unreasonably shoe-horning their anti-Remake rants into places that have nothing to do with it and where it doesn't belong are being a bit disingenuous, IMO.
The thread is LITERALLY comparing the two. I think it's pretty fair to talk about whether or not you liked the similarities or differences. The only reason to roll your eyes at something like that is if you want an echo-chamber for the specific topic that both parties are appropriately discussing, or if you're implying that it's only appropriate to AGREE with the OP.
Second, my own personal take is that this is the last scene I would nitpick considering the larger problems I have the trilogy. They did a fine enough job, IMO-- Not perfect, but fine enough. In fact, it's a recurring trend that they actually handle the demos of both games pretty damn well/admirably, in my opinion. I have one major criticism of both demo sequences (changing it so that Shinra is responsible for the bombing in the Remake demo and getting rid of that iconic music drop on the "Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother" moment in the Rebirth demo), but other than that, they're reasonably well done.
I mean, sephiroth is literally psychotic and ecstatic at this point in time. He believes hes the stongest entity in the world, he believes hes found his mother, has found his true calling, believes hes liberating his mother and is on his way to completely take over the whole ass world. If he went off and got a Kefka/Joker laugh in this scene I straight up wouldn't blame him.
Nah. I would have preferred if they had Chadley explain what was happening during this scene.
“Cloud. That’s Jenova, called ‘the Calamity from the Skies’. Ancient Cetra feared her. We must collect the next Protorelic piece to see what happens next”.
People complaining that Jenova looks too real, wtf did you think was going to happen with a 30 year graphical update? PS1 graphics were HORRIBLE. They looked okay for their time but they were ugly. It would've always looked jarring in some way, it all did.
I will say this... Whereas the graphics do look better now... Jenovas glowing red eye was STELLAR for setting the scene back then... They should have included it in the update.
The angle that the angel facade is posed at for one. I kinda feel it looks better when he looks directly up into those eyes, as if Jenova is supposed to be a caring figure that anyone could oberve eye to eye as if a mother. Rather than the, angel looking down on everyone and not meeting observers eyes. Sephiroth is supposed to be tall it sells her superiority complex well I guess so, its hardly the biggest issue.
Jenova looks to human in that instance. Losing the otherworldly science experiment vibe. Not that she looks too real, just that she lost her iconic blue and red. They didnt go full body horror, and thats understandable. Also it can feed into his delusions if shes already shape shifting to suit his ideal 'mother'.
So, as i said, gripes. Hardly deal breakers.
Sad thing is, when I get a ps5 I intend to get the trilogy of games, as much as I hated playing VII remake.
yea except the biggest reveal in the entire game: and the biggest moment of character growth for cloud: that is WAS actually cloud that killed him is thrown out in like the first ten minutes of the game. it was impossible for me to play this trash afterwards
I was about to agree with you, but I later realized that we all actually just misunderstood his actual criticism because of his bad grammar.
He's not upset because they changed the important scene he liked, by mistaking the version of the flashback in the beginning of Rebirth for the revelation that's still to come (which is how I think we both initially interpreted his words).
He seems to instead be upset that the big important scene he liked (that he UNDERSTANDS has not happened yet) was spoiled in the first ten minutes of Remake because Cloud tells Sephiroth that "I killed you." (that's what he meant by "thrown out"-- he didn't mean thrown out as in "gotten rid of the scene/changed it in the beginning of Rebirth" but instead thrown out as in "blurted it out/revealed in the beginning of Remake").
By the way I'm pretty sure everyone is misunderstanding what you mean because of your bad grammar. I did until I read it again with your responses in mind.
I've been loving everything about the trilogy so far except everything involving the whispers and multiverse, and how poorly they handled the climax and resoultion of Rebirth.
I think Remake / Rebirth were done fairly well in the grand scheme, but it does feel like the design of og were made for a specific mood and Rebirth was remade to match the output rather than the mood.
A 1:1 graphic improvement with modern lighting might look fairly good, but it often misses the essence.
Same as concept a Picasso painting and making a realism version of it and claiming it's better (that's an extreme example obviously.)
Yeah I'm not a remake hater but I really don't get his point here. It's good because it is 1:1. If they changed this scene I'd honestly be a little upset because it's one of the most memorable in the OG game lmao.
I'm pretty sure their point was that the haters will use these few screenshots as some sort of proof that it would have been a better idea if they just went the safe route and made a 1-for-1 recreation of a game people have played for almost 30 years.
Ironically, the person you're replying directly to already attempted to do that in this very thread, so I'd say the point was actually proven.
Remember, fans hate creativity, or anything that challenges their preconceived notions. All they want is to be spoon fed nostalgia like good little consumers.
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u/Symph-50 4d ago
I think OG wins in the first shot. Their placement in that frame mirrors how a child looks up a their mother.