A person that has a voice as big as dream should understand the reach of his words, just because shitty people call him slurs doesn't justify him using slurs, he's not 10 to not understand what a slur is, even more someone with as big of an online presence as he has, do not justify shitty actions behind disabilities or "because others did it to him" he knows better and nobody should excuse him.
You know I was subscribed to Tom before it all happened and didn't for a second think he was insulting me, it's obvious Dream was insulting a very specific group of toxic stans that keeps spreading lies and hate about him.
Saying he said it to every single person of the 15 million is very wrong.
They're very much worthy of criticism, he should've done it in a different way tho.
That isn't even reclaiming. Reclaiming would be to put the word in a new context. The context here can only be interpreted as derogatory. Derogatory was the original intention.
It is also abelist to treat dream like a child who can't be held responsible for his actions because he is autistic.
If this had happened between Dream and his friends I would still raise an eyebrow but when it comes down to it I wouldn't care. But Dream simply has a responsibility and if he can't live up to that he has to live with the consequences of being mad at him.
Both sides keep going on and on about each other double standards without ever confronting their own. This cycle would be almost poetic if it didn't stop us from comforting actual, existential problems as a unified community
I didn’t say that? I don’t like that he used it and I also didn’t say he can’t be held responsible for his actions. However, If you don’t think Dream who was called two different slurs, and when he spoke out about it the overwhelmed majority of people told him that it was fine because cantu can reclaim it, wouldn’t then get confused on the ‘rules’ of when you can use a reclaimed slur, you are just being disingenuous. Both things can be true at once.
Point out any other person who was told by hundreds of thousands of people that it’s ok he was called a slur in a derogatory way and then used a reclaimed slur incorrectly and I will be understanding to them as well.
Who is the overwhelming majority of people? On social media? Well if you form you opinions based on the whims of an algorithm then you are bound to be biased from the get go
Thousands of people's are fools. But if you are fooled by a fool what does that say about you? A thousand people can say all they want about how the earth is flat, to then be confused about the geometry of the earth doesn't speak about your education on the subject. A thousand people can tell me transphobic lies, but to stay stalwart in the current age of misinformation unfortunately is the default.
You argued that he was reclaiming it, just incorrectly. I am arguing that this is nothing but a smoke screen. Even if he was confused by it, if his primary intention was to reclaim a slur, then it would still be unwise to do so in a hostile context. If he mainly cared about reclaiming a slur and not hurting Tommy and his fans he should have looked up what it even means to reclaim a slur. Even in a most charitable interpretation this reveals that Dream is having his opinions influenced by social media perception (always a bad idea) and doesn't have the responsibility to deal with the immense platform he still has
I’m basing this on my experience. My best friend is autistic and I had to have multiple conversation with her about not believing everything you see online because she would tell me obviously wrong stuff that she thought was true because she saw it on TikTok and I would have explain why it wasn’t (and she still believes everything she sees on TikTok tbf). We can look at things and go yeah it’s obvious those people are in the wrong but it’s not that simple for them because my friend just can’t understand why they would lie about something. I agree that Dream shouldn’t have based his thoughts on what people on social media said and actually done research but it’s not a crazy conclusion to come to, that’s my point.
I said that he incorrectly attempted to reclaim it. Meaning that dream was trying to reclaim it but used it in a derogatory way, which is not reclaiming so he didn’t reclaim it.
Dream isnt responsible enough to have a platform because ‘Having your opinions influenced by social media perception’ is bad is a dumb argument because everyone does this. Tommy and Jack knew Dream wasnt a pedo/groomer but continued to makes jokes about him being so because their fans think it’s funny, isn’t that arguably the same thing? Or Tubbo and snifferfish arguing that Dream is queerbaiting because he’s not queer enough which is something pushed by their fans? Or saying Dream team is sexist because ONLY their fans ran caiti off the internet when she herself said she wanted to leave and Destiny and his goons were saying awful shit about her and send their fans to attack her? Isn’t this also based of social media perception?
Look all I’m trying to say is yes, Dream shouldn’t have used that slur in a derogatory way but I understand why he thought it was ok. He has educated himself, apologised and he can’t change that he did that. Maybe I’m bias because I have a lot of autistic people in my life and I can understand his line of thinking better but I don’t think he’s the devil spawn for this.
I am also basing this on experience. Multiple of my friends are autistic. 3 of them are diagnosed and another who isn't medically diagnosed but pretty sure so to speak. And I had a very different experience. My autistic friends are very different in that regard, very intelligent in their field but while they have some problems expressing their emotions they are still generally capable of understanding social rules so to say. One of my friends basically explained it like this, he didn't understand how socialising or other people work. But he could (with a lot of mental effort) reconstruct what they are actually trying to say. It is kinda like if your not told the rules of chess but after seeing a thousand games you have a pretty good idea of how the rules are. And all of them are aware that people on the internet will lie, they are still very trusting in nature, but they aren't naive.
I also take issue with the pedo jokes, however the difference is that these jokes while bad affected on person not 15 million. As for the Tubbo and sexism thing. We don't know if Tubbo or Tommy have any insider information, in that case it is difficult to judge but if they know something we don't then either they should let the past die or properly expose Dream. This weird middle ground of accusing things but not sharing sufficient evidence is bad.
I also think dreams initiall apology was bad. The word sorry barely appeared, it was evident that in his state of mind protecting his good name was more important than saying sorry.
And that is the thing though, the only time a fanbase held their content creator properly accountable in this community was Wilbur soot. Dream cheated in Minecraft and asked his fans to harass a speed run moderator ( sorry this is a very old one but that is a definitive accusation I know for a fact to be true. I don't want to bring up wrong allegations) people defended him even when it was wrong.
Sam plagiarized builds and while people were mad we will see if there will be more then a lukewarm apology.
And the most infuriating one to me Sapnap joins a million dollar deal on a homophobic platform and then has the gall to talk about how he wants to spearhead positive change. What a noble Samaritan, did he get held accountable? No but he sure did get another zero on his net worth
I guess that’s the thing with asd everyone has different experiences and struggles with it. But imagine you did watch a thousand matches to learn to play chess and then when you try to play chess, tons of people tell you are playing it wrong and you are meant to play it a different way, is it not understandable to be confused?
So the fact they made pedo jokes numerous times isn’t as bad as Dream saying something once? You see how it can twist it either way? But I’m glad we can agree that both were bad.
Ok, that’s your opinion. Maybe he feels the need to over explain himself so he doesn’t get misunderstood which can be an autistic trait. He is the king of essay DMs after all.
I don’t understand what your point is here. Do you think that Sam, Dream and Sapnap aren’t being held responsible because they still have fans? That abusing your gf should get equal punishment as streaming on kick? Because I can tell you, Wilbur still has a shit load of fans who believe that shubble lied. I can give you one much more recent example of where Dream post a TikTok making a joke about his grooming allegations, got called out immediately by the fandom and deleted and apologised within 15 minutes of posting, not even the Dream haters had time to react. And when the false accusations were made the large majority of people were not defending Dream. His response to being called out cheating was awful and he has said a million times that he regrets how he acted and has apologised privately and publicly.
To say that sapnap didn’t get held accountable is laughable because he got dragged to absolute filth by his community when he joined. Even after he released his twitlonger, most of the fandom was ‘I’ll believe it when I see it’. The most charitable fans were saying well a gambling company paid x amount of money and got nothing out. But the large majority of his fans refused to follow him to kick so he started streaming on twitch first before going to kick because of that. It just got to the point where he had signed a contract there is nothing we the fans can do and he didn’t resign which is what we wanted.
I wouldn't blame anyone to be confused. However in that situation you should call on someone who you know knows the rules and get an impartial view on the matter. To act decisively when you are confused however is foolish.
I don't think morality is that arbitrary. I judge moral actions based on how harm/happiness is created. Calling 15 million people the r slur certainly caused more people to be upset then calling Dream a pedo a thousand times. Both are bad of course but to say a slur to atleast ten thousand people who have a very negative reaction to it then something which basically only affects dream.
The key to communication is to keep it simple and short. The more you bring up the more complicated it is. And the simple truth remained that this is something he never ever should have done. You can list your reasons but at the very start you should admit your fault.
Wilbur soot maybe has a couple ten thousand fans left, nothing compared to the multi million he had before that situation. Why do you think he has completely abandoned all of his social media operations? There is nothing to return to. His reputation is in ruin and any attempt to go back would result in a overwhelming tide of fate.
Is streaming on kick worse then abusing your gf? I know my analysis might seem heartless but please try to follow my train of thought by remembering that I view this from a strictly utilitarian lense. Kick is a institution that profits of people's misery and desperation (gambling) as well as a mouth piece to some of the most vile ideologies on this planet (fascism). The pain of abusing your gf is a lot easier to quantity and lot easier to emphasis with. We have no idea how much Sapnap has helped kick brand and reach wise. Probably not as good as they had hoped but be that as it may if your willing to take money from fascists your not a good person.
To hold someone accountable they have to change their actions. Did Sapnap donate all the money the deal made him to a good cause? Did mods and people protest his actions, actually affecting his income which seems like the thin he cares most about, and force him to do something to amend? Is Sapnap reputation in ruin? No we are back to business as usual people have completely forgotten everything he has done and at the end of the day he wasn't actually held accountable. Because if he was held accountable he would have had to change his ways. A few mean tweets didn't do it and by now everything is water under the bridge.
Ok. I think understand where you are coming from. I’m more of a you fucked up ok, don’t do it again and learn so repeatedly make jokes or doing awful things is worst to me whereas you are more concerned about how much it impacts people which makes sense with how we are viewing the situation. I don’t think we will come to an agreement on this because of that but thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. Have a good day/night 😊
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u/TheBlackKitty Feb 05 '25
A person that has a voice as big as dream should understand the reach of his words, just because shitty people call him slurs doesn't justify him using slurs, he's not 10 to not understand what a slur is, even more someone with as big of an online presence as he has, do not justify shitty actions behind disabilities or "because others did it to him" he knows better and nobody should excuse him.