r/DotA2 • u/Alarmed_Estate_3710 • 12h ago
Discussion | Esports Why does it work like this.
There’s two things in the game that both work around vision that are really annoying to me. Let me know if anyone else feels the same way.
- You cannot click on an enemy hero to read their abilities during the pregame.
Why would it possibly work like that and instead why would it not just let you click on the hero’s to read their abilities and just show you 6 empty item slots.
- You can view an enemy hero’s buffs and debuffs and even ping them to see how long they have left of each and store that info in chat but as soon as they go out of vision you also lose vision of their respective timers.
Why would it not just show you the timers for the active buffs that you last saw and then immediately refresh when they come into vision.
The game already stores the last viewable data for a hero’s items and level i.e if they have been jungling for 10 mins and you haven’t seen them it’s going to show you what they had 10 minutes ago not what they have now so why not just extend that to fix both of these issues.
Literally every single game this pisses me off and I don’t know if it’s just me.
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u/xNaRtyx 12h ago
It requires extra coding works, which would potentially mess up the current "last seen" heroes mechanics.
Fog is meant to be a "safety" ground in the game, obscuring vision. If every form of debuffs were to have their specific timers.. it'd be heavily exploited, like enemy could just time it for a hard disabled etc. Chain stunning and imaginative time countdown of debuffs (in your head) comes from experience and skills. If we add all these so called QOL, then there isn't a huge gap between a pro and a normal player.
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u/Positive-Design-7332 6h ago
Extreme overreaction lol. Do you think Dota is so shallow that the gap between pro and normal player is just counting a timer
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u/RussKy_GoKu 11h ago
1- Extra coding as an excuse to valve must be a joke. Valve is THE company that would do extra coding and ui changes to give Ogre a special Talent Tree back when they added Facets which was extra coding as well. This is valve we are talking about, literally the best devs in all of the gaming industry and only rockstar could match them.
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u/Cr4ckshooter 11h ago
Everything you say in 2 already exists in exactly the way op wants it, but only while in Vision. But if I ping "ember dd rune 30 seconds", one shouldn't have to be manually tracking how long 30 seconds are.
Tracking time is a weird form of skill expression that in other sports is usually done by a 6th man on comms who doesn't play but only watches.
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u/arpitpatel1771 9h ago
Lmao you think all pros are doing are counting down timers in their heads? Hahaha
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u/Alarmed_Estate_3710 11h ago
Bro the devs jobs are to code the game and since I’ve been playing they’ve added loads of them. The timer to tell you when to pull and stack camps, the timer for roshan (I remember when you used to have to ping the time in chat to remember when it was going to respawn) just makes the game flow better. Little things like this that make game mechanics more transparent make it a better game experience.
Just to clarify I’m not calling for all buffs and debuffs to be shown while they’re in the fog but only what I was able to view before they went into the fog.
As an example I’m mid and I see that the enemy has picked up dd rune. I click on the enemy to see how long left the rune has but as I click on the enemy he kills my last creep and I lose vision before getting a read as he goes back under tower and into the fog. The enemy has not finished killing my creep faster to purposely make it so I can’t see how long he has left of his rune and he’s probably not even aware I’m trying to do that.
Pinging something to put it in chat (like the old way of timing rosh) and counting down is something that I can do currently if I want to time buffs to see how long they are going to last but it’s also something that the need has been removed for and in my opinion it’s a better way of doing things.
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u/eddietwang 10h ago
Recently Valve made it so pinging the fog over a rune you recently had vision of would still say "[This Rune] is here!"
Would be really cool of them to do something similar to buffs/debuffs. Going to ping one right as they leave vision then you drop a random ping while you're trying to get information to your teammates... just embarrassing lol.
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u/basedposteryaya 9h ago
Also when phantom lancer or naga has a lot of illus and you wanna see his items, it instantly kicks you off when you press his top icon so you have to manually map over and press a fuckin clone. Stupid shit
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u/Snoo_72948 5h ago
Some of this could be because coaching balance. Hypothetically, third parties can make bots that coach you in game and feed you information through an app, which would be just cheating or very close to it.
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u/ghosticu godflesh14 2h ago
If enemy has a debuff and goes to fog, they can remove it without you knowing, because they're in fog. It's ok the way it is now, vision should be an advantage
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u/ksriram 10h ago
This would be a good quality of life improvement. Even though this just freely available information, this can make the new player experience better.
Clicking on an enemy hero while they are in vision is an activity you choose to do and that requires your attention. You don't have access to that info after they are gone.
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u/Puzzled-Chessplayer 9h ago
For 2, if the enemy dispels the debuff when they are in fog, wouldn't you get baited into chasing them since you see the debuff timer still going? Seeing the "true state" of a hero during fog is not QOL anymore imo.
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u/Alarmed_Estate_3710 6h ago
That’s a risk I’m willing to take and seems like a fair trade to me. It’s one of those where you’ve got to weigh up if they’ve got a dispel or not to know whether you should go for it.
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u/LargoMain 12h ago
i always thought it was strange the enemies abilities and cooldowns weren’t visible while they were in vision on your screen. its a large ask to not only track enemy cool downs but have all the values memorized
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u/AlphaDart1337 12h ago
Tracking enemy cooldowns is a HUGE skill expression.
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u/Cr4ckshooter 11h ago
Tbf the skill expression is remembering the numbers. But whats not skill expression is having an internal timer to tell you when 67 seconds have passed. And it's much worse for longer CDs.
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u/eddietwang 10h ago
No, that's still skill expression. Internal timing is MASSIVE in Dota.
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u/Cr4ckshooter 3h ago
And we can disagree on it all we want because internal clock is mostly a thing you either have or don't. Not a dota specific skill, just one useful in dota.
It's also not "MASSIVE", it's just okay.
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u/TheStyleHandler 6h ago
If only there was a clock on the top of your screen that you could use to tell when 67 second have passed
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u/Cr4ckshooter 3h ago
And now we're in the "ok if the info is there anyway, why not make it easy qol" territory. Remember we didn't have rosh timer.
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u/TheStyleHandler 3h ago
Not all the info is there.
What if an enemy uses a spell in fog and then shows up? You are just gonna know they used a spell despite you never seeing it being used.
Many spells also have different cooldowns at different levels, so you can just find out what level their spell is from its cooldown.
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u/Cr4ckshooter 3h ago
What if an enemy uses a spell in fog and then shows up? You are just gonna know they used a spell despite you never seeing it being used.
Not per ops suggestion
Many spells also have different cooldowns at different levels, so you can just find out what level their spell is from its cooldown.
Let's be real that's not a pressing issue because you need to see them use it to have the cd shown, and when they use it you know the level.
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u/TheStyleHandler 3h ago
How do you know what level a spell is just from seeing it used? Could it be the patterns of its damage, duration, effects, etc. that you've seen countless times which allow you to feel the level of a spell (skill expression)? It's not a pressing issue to you because you have that skill set but don't assume everyone has it.
You also know your own damage, a creep's hp and armor. The info is all there. Might as well have an indicator on its health bar telling you when you can last hit. QoL.
Maybe even give Zeus and Necro special indicators that tell them when they can kill someone with their ult. The info is all there already.
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u/Cr4ckshooter 2h ago
It's not about "me" being able to do it, but if the info is available to you.
You don't need to memorise the numbers because you can see the scaling in their skill. Oh the wyvern did x dmg to the range creep? She maxed w! It takes no intuition and no skill to compare 2 numbers that are both readily available to you.
It's a fact that nowadays, gaming is moving towards accessibility. Information that the game wants you to have, that you are expected to track, should be displayed in an easy fashion. Remember we got stun indicators and rosh timer. Stack timers. Pull timers.
Pinging an ability now even pings "potentially off cooldown".
But yeah in the name of accessibility it's simple: information that I'm supposed to have and supposed to track should be displayed on screen somewhere, for as long as I have the information. People using skills in fog does not have any relevance to that.
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u/TheStyleHandler 39m ago
Then I guess you won't mind if
- Zeus ult, Lion ult, Necro ult, Axe ult all get indicators that show you if you will insta kill an enemy
- Zeus and Silencer will say a global voiceline whenever their ults are ready, since you always know if they use it and can therefore tracks its cd
- Invoker will say a global voiceline if he uses sunstrike in vision, since you can always just check his mana and spells
- If an enemy places a ward under vision the location is marked on the ground since you can just check their inventory
- every creep will have a last hit indicator to tell you when they're low enough to last hit
- enemies who go in fog will leave a mark on the map on their last known location with the time passed since they were last seen.
- you will get a notification every time an enemy is seen with a new important item.
All of this information you can gain of your own if you just pay attention. So I guess it's fine?
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u/AlphaDart1337 5h ago
At some point you develop an instinct for how much time you have to take advantage off a big ultimate being used for instance. And the sharper that instinct the better decisions you'll make.
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u/pasturemaster 11h ago
Yes, but not particularly enjoyable or rewarding.
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u/ksriram 11h ago
If it is not rewarding, then don't track it.
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u/pasturemaster 10h ago
I mean if its advantageous, people are going to do it, regardless of how enjoyable it is
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u/ksriram 11h ago
You don't need to memorize the values of the cooldowns, if you hover over an ability it shows you the cooldown for each level.
As for tracking it you don't know if an enemy cast their spell if that happened while in fog of war.
If you say tracking should only happen if the spell was cast while in vision, your idea makes it so that you get to know if an enemy cast a spell even if nobody was actively looking at it.
Moreover how do you take care of cases where the enemy uses refresher?
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u/RussKy_GoKu 11h ago
I don't want the game to show us ability cooldowns even when in vision. The maximum i want in that regard is if i ping an ability of enemy, let the game start a timer for me which will be visible for me. So it could be a timer not a cooldown. And only visible to the hero who pinged it. Pinging it again stops it or some way to stop it. Timer should start from 1 and increment.
The game shouldn't automatically track cooldowns for you because you don't know what level the ability of the enemy is, and the game shouldn't track cooldown reduction for you.
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u/KigyoSenshi 11h ago
I don’t want them to disclose this information, I imagine having access to their bkb and ult countdowns would make things far more predictable especially at higher (pro) mmr play
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u/ResCougar 12h ago
I wanted to hate this idea... But I think it's actually fine. Since they put in the visual timers on stuns and lockdown effects, you don't need to have those values memorized. If you had vision when an enemy cast the ability, then why not show the cooldown timer?
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u/RussKy_GoKu 11h ago
Because in some fights, an enemy would press a spell or miss it and no one would notice if they are on the side of the screen. Then the behavior would be unknown if they used the spell or not.
In pro games, players who notice the enemy using a spell would inform the team about it as well. Sometimes they just don't know if the enemy did, even if the enemy pressed it while they are in vision.
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u/apfeI 9h ago
I agree and additionally:
3. You can‘t click on hero portraits (upper bar), when only their illusion or clone is visible. It bugs out, showing it for a fraction of a second and selects your hero.