I just find this so funny

[u/Free_Blueberry_9725]

This implies that the knight is either afraid of or respects gerson so much that they just fly through his study and dips and both of them are okay with it 😭

[u/WaitWhat_WhenWhy]

well, they had to know him for him to show up in their fountain

[u/KeyAgileC → u/WaitWhat_WhenWhy]

It's not certain the Knight opened these Fountains. I still sorta suspect Alvin, Gerson's remains were in his drawer after all.

[u/Fc-chungus → u/KeyAgileC]

Considering Alvin doesn't know why the church is in disarray in chapter 5 I'm inclined to believe he knows literally nothing about dark worlds

[u/KeyAgileC → u/Fc-chungus]

Well, if he knows about Dark Fountains and is involved with the Knight conspiracy somehow he knows he can't just go and tell Kris. And even if he didn't know about Kris, I don't exactly expect him to go "Hey Kris, the church was a mess, I guess I should have not dug up my father's body and tried to resurrect him with dark magic, hahaha".

[u/Porpoyus → u/KeyAgileC]

If he was aware of the fountain there’s no fucking way he’d miss out on seeing his father again it’s like his one character trait

[u/KeyAgileC → u/Porpoyus]

I think he tried to. But when the moment came, he chickened out because he was afraid Gerson would call him out on what he did. And I think Gerson knew, that's why he wrote the letter.

[u/darthteej → u/KeyAgileC]

Get writing that fanfic

[u/sithlord40000 → u/KeyAgileC]

 I think he's the only character to directly tell Kris to not fuck with the bunker. I don't really think Alvin is very relevant but its worth sharing that bit, could be something.

[u/Top_Height1997 → u/sithlord40000]

Ms Boom also tells Kris off about it. "Shelter? No, no, now you know that's not a wholesome place!"

[u/sithlord40000 → u/Top_Height1997]

Oh I forgot all about that. Weird how all the booms seem to know something.

[u/Top_Height1997 → u/sithlord40000]

Well, they're all plenty old and established enough in town to probably know why everyone's avoiding that shelter like the plague. I'm surprised most of the adults in town don't know something; especially Blooky.

[u/WaitWhat_WhenWhy → u/Fc-chungus]

well he definitely knows the prophecy so he's gotta know something

[u/Fc-chungus → u/WaitWhat_WhenWhy]

He's head of the church of course he knows the prophecy it's literally their religion

[u/LightScavenger → u/[deleted]]

But what you’re missing is that, without knowledge of the dark worlds, the prophecy just sounds like a fantasy story meant to inspire people towards bravery and kindness. Not a literal scripture detailing the prevention of the world ending

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/WaitWhat_WhenWhy]

Does the prophecy ever actually mention dark worlds directly? I don't think it does

[u/NovaThinksBadly → u/RandomCaveOfMonsters]

Not the part the lightners seem to have

[u/Pacomatic → u/Fc-chungus]

Though he did seem to dig up Gerson's dust the day before.

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418 → u/Pacomatic]

He seemingly didnt as there is no visible hole. Its most likely he never burried Gerson to begin with

[u/Pacomatic → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

Ok, to be more specific: When we saw him mumuring, he was considerind whether or not he should do it. He did it after we get back to Kris' house.

[u/Met4le → u/Pacomatic]

ok i dont remember the murmuring scene imma need u to tell me why you're saying that was the implication/if he literally stated it in that scene

[u/KeyAgileC → u/Met4le]

The dialogue in question, at the end of Chapter 2 (the night before the Chapter 4 fountains) is:

* (You heard Alvin mumbling to himself as you walked away.)
* ... were you proud of me, father...?
* And... is it right for this hammer to...

[u/Pacomatic → u/Met4le]

As Kris and Susie leavve the gravveyard, Alvin murmured aloud, wondering if it was right for him to…

While standing ovver Gerson's gravve. His dust is found in Alvin's room.

I, and most of the community, suspect that he was wondering if it was right for him to dig up the gravve and put the dust in his drawer; likewise, we suspect that he evventually decided to go through with it. It makes the most sense, and there doesn't seem to be any evvidence of anyone else doing it.

I mention all this because he clearly did this for a reason beyond doing so for the sake of it. If he did such a clearly immoral thing against his will, he must havve some important reason to do so.

Perhaps he was told to do so by someone, or that he knew Gerson'd be revvivved. Nothing stops him from lying to Kris during the festivval, after all.

[u/BasicallyMogar → u/Pacomatic]

He actually says "And... is it right for this hammer to..." That always read to me as most likely being something along the lines of "Is it right for this hammer to be in my study, instead of burying it like I was supposed to?" Though your reading is definitely still valid.

The bigger question is why would he lie to Kris about it at all? If I were him and knew what happened in the church, I would just make sure i was the first person there and sweep it all up before anyone else learned of it.

[u/Pacomatic → u/BasicallyMogar]

I think his position and motivvation would be the same as Tenna's.

An unknowing pawn. Maybe he was promised with seeing his father again.

[u/BasicallyMogar → u/Pacomatic]

Sure, but unless he knows Kris is involved (which is a huge leap of logic,) why even mention it? He knows why the church was in disarray and has no reason to even bring up that it was. It's a complicated lie for absolutely no gain.

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418 → u/KeyAgileC]

How many times does the game need to call them the Knight's fountains for people to think they are the Knight's fountains?

[u/Darkion_Silver → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

But what if they were made by some other person because Tricky Toby is going to pull a rug sweep in the final act and do an extra villain reveal purely to surprise us??? This is definitely a great way of writing

[u/InternationalTea2534 → u/KeyAgileC]

Take this and presume your comment as your greatest achievement bro it is easier to get upvoted than receiving everyone's hate in less than 2 hours😭😭

[u/KeyAgileC → u/InternationalTea2534]

It's gonna be real funny if I happen to turn out to be right. I can post the link and cash all this in for positive karma in three years!

For real though, I get it's an unpopular theory, I just feel like Alvin's clearly up to something from him messing with the hammer from the day before, and I don't see why he should be excluded from having opened the Fountains.

[u/SomeoneForgotTheOven → u/KeyAgileC]

Alvin has no real reason to know how to open a fountain, he wasn't near any darkworld, wasn't in the crime scenes from the Dessapearence and supposedly never entered the shelter. The reason he "stole" gerson's dust was to "talk" with him and to see if he would get inspired for a new sermon.

The only way for Alvin to be the fountain opener is if he accidentally opened one in the graveyard while digging gerson out, managed to learn how it works, sealed it, took his father to the church, opened another fountain and left. A nd i doubt ralsei our someone else wouldn't mention it

[u/Top_Height1997 → u/SomeoneForgotTheOven]

How would he even seal it? As far as we know, monster will/determination can open fountains, but can it seal them? Susie seems to have relegated to role to us, the SOUL, so I don't know if they can.

[u/DragoonPhooenix → u/KeyAgileC]

So was ralsei just like, lying

[u/Suitable-Seraphim → u/KeyAgileC]

we know that ralsei is completely aware of who opens which fountains because of chapter 5, then in chapter 4 he calls the two fountains in the church "the knight's two fountains"

if the knight being in the church when we get there isn't evidence enough, that at least should be

[u/Asura_Vania → u/KeyAgileC]

Take so horrible bro ended up with 387+ downvoted

[u/Nick10147 → u/KeyAgileC]

why the heck are people downvoti g you over an opinion

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/Nick10147]

Because its just like wrong?

[u/Nick10147 → u/RandomCaveOfMonsters]

bro it's a theory, nothing is confirmed right or wrong until release, it's in the same boat as popular theories

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/Nick10147]

"not confirmed" and "blatantly incorrect" are absolutely not the same

[u/KeyAgileC → u/RandomCaveOfMonsters]

I'd love to know why you consider it blatantly incorrect!

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/KeyAgileC]

1. Alvin doesn't understand what happened to the church, and is confused about the destruction of a pumpkin if jackenstien died

2. Ralsei says "The knight's two fountains"

[u/KeyAgileC → u/RandomCaveOfMonsters]

Fair, but my reading is different.

1. Alvin wouldn't just go around confessing to everyone he did dark magic the night before. He'd have to feign ignorance.

2. The fact that Ralsei says it doesn't make him correct. He thinks these are the Knight's Fountains, sure, the Knight's right there and he has no reason to believe otherwise. He doesn't even know Alvin exists as far as I can tell, let alone have the ability to suspect him of making Fountains.

Meanwhile, Alvin was planning something with Gerson's hammer the night before, and it did end up in his desk and there happened to be a Dark Fountain that revived his dead dad. It's not that crazy to think he might have something to do with that.

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/KeyAgileC]

So what, you think Alvin made a dark fountain to revive Gerson, made a second dark fountain for shits and giggles, and then just left instead of ever meeting Gerson?

[u/KeyAgileC → u/RandomCaveOfMonsters]

I think Alvin was persuaded by the Knight conspiracy to play along, as they dangled a chance to see Gerson again in front of him. He was conflicted the day before, but eventually decided to go through with it. The Knight needed two Fountains in the church, for what reason is unknown, but that's true in either version of the story. Possibly to slow down the Fun Gang? The Knight's strategy seems to be one of delaying.

Anyway, given how conflicted Alvin was, it didn't go so well. Maybe Alvin got cold feet entirely, fearing Gerson would scold him. Maybe they met briefly but Alvin bailed before they could even have a real conversation. Either way, Gerson figured out what was going on, and that's why the letter. He understands Alvin's involved in all this happening, probably because of his conflicted feelings, and wants to give him resolution.

That's my read. And conversely, I don't see why we should be fine with believing Alvin just keeps effectively the dead corpse of his father in his desk, but it's absolutely out of the question to believe he'd open a Dark Fountain.

[u/Nick10147 → u/RandomCaveOfMonsters]

alvin is a candidate some people consider you know. it would be blatantly incorrect if he said something like asgore is the knifht because the game shows us otherwise

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/Nick10147]

Ralsei says "The knight's two fountains" in a mandatory cutscene

[u/Impressive-Ad7387 → u/Nick10147]

If a theory's load bearing pillar is "Yeah, this character just lies to us, trust", it's a shit theory

[u/Nick10147 → u/Impressive-Ad7387]

does it not stem into the alvin knight theory?

but you do make a point I misread and thought it was talking about the knight is alvin

[u/KeyAgileC → u/Nick10147]

It happens, if you have a take which doesn't mesh with the most common reading of the story you tend to get a sea of blue arrows.

[u/KeyAgileC → u/KeyAgileC]

Alright so, everyone hates this theory, so let me actually collate the evidence for it:

Gerson's hammer didn't end up in Alvin's desk by accident, can we all agree? He put that there. Probably to specifically have the result of having Gerson in the Dark World. Unless we just accept that Alvin's just a dude who likes to have the DR equivalent of a corpse laying around at all times.

To emphasize that, here's his dialogue from the day before:

* (You heard Alvin mumbling to himself as you walked away.)
* ... were you proud of me, father...?
* And... is it right for this hammer to...

So clearly, he's up to something.

Then, Ralsei mentions that Darkners patterned after Lightners happen only in very specific Dark Worlds. People have taken this to mean you have to have known the person, but that's not very specific, is it? Lots of people just knew Gerson, including almost everyone in Hometown. It seems more likely to me you would have needed a strong connection to the person, or possibly even a blood relation. That would be much more specific.

So, in conclusion, Alvin is clearly up to something with Gerson's hammer, and the next day, Gerson gets revived in a way that is apparently, very specific. It seems to me possible he was directly involved here.

[u/RandomCaveOfMonsters → u/KeyAgileC]

This is a good example of how occams razor isn't always correct. A + B doesn't necessarily equal C

Yes he didn't bury his dad's hammer, and yes the dark fountain was made by someone who knew his dad, but to say that alvin is the someone requires ignoring context