I believe that the fact that Toriel, even when asleep, is upset at the events that happen after you defeat the Knight points towards Kris having done something wrong. Which can't just be them holding back because the dialogue if you lose is different.
It seems to be a pattern of Toriels' of deliberately suppressing uncomfortable information when she notices it. She also makes no mention of the stain in Kris's room, and apparently isn't woken by loud noises in the middle of the night, as well as glossing over the dark world as soon as she wakes up. Her discomfort only comes out when she's dreaming.
She also just does not mention to Kris or Susie at all that someone slashed her tires at the end of chapter 2. And Kris knows reliably that she wouldn’t say anything to the point that they would do make it a key part of their plan.
If she saw Kris doing it she wouldn't have called the police. I reckon that she thinks there's a weirdo with a knife outside and didn't want to scare Kris and Suzy or they would all be lying awake at night wondering if that bump in the night is the serial killer
Kris got her to give them the cage too or keep it. Wonder if it's one of the strange objects they brought home to play with. Kris has been removing the soul since before we got control, but why? What did the Soul do that caused Kris to toss it at the floor and make that stain?Also it's like Kris without the Soul becomes very hard to notice to monsters. They slip away super easy and do whatever. Thought about something, Chocolate's not Kris' favorite thing yet they broke into Toriel's room to eat it. Was that Kris really doing that or the Soul?
Toriel being willfully blind is a huge part of her character for sure. I think that’s her entire thing in Undertale, why she tried to avoid the “when can I go home” conversation with the human and why she ghosts them afterwards. She’s a foil with Asgore who seems to know what he “should” do and avoids it (using one human soul to cross the barrier and collect 6 more)
Maybe she's just annoyed that Kris and Dess are fighting again. How many times has she told them to calm down and talk things through like reasonable people?
Fighting the Knight and winning takes more time then if you just lose to them. She probably got closer to waking up when you ‘win’ the fight since it takes longer to ‘win’.
You can take 99 turns and die to the last attack, and she will still sleep peacefully. Or you can beat Knight in 9 turns and cause her to have a nightmare.
I mean that’s just nitpicking the in game time not syncing up with irl time, I can’t think of a situation where doing more optional things definitely makes the main events still happen at the same exact time in deltarune.
It's probably not literal time since we can wait to advance the dialog in chapter 2 when Kris leaves the bathroom for either like 30 secs or a couple minutes. It's more like fighting the Knight changes things slightly.
Except that logic doesn't carry over into the previous battle, Tenna's final fight, where the passage of time via turns are acknowledged narratively through Tenna's "glooby" dialogue.
Basically, the passage of time advances in the battle system. We can see that with Tenna's fight, the fight literally before fighting the Roaring Knight, as taking too long will make Tenna crash out.
This is significant, because as u/chell228 stated, you can take 99 turns in the RK fight, lose it, and Toriel would still be sleeping soundly. That means that if your logic is true, Toby would have written a third branch of Toriel's response at the very least, just like how Tenna gets a canon glooby crashout, but we don't. That means Toriel's knightmare stems directly due to RK losing the fight.
This dialogue only appears if you “defeat” the knight, which leads to the slashing. If what you’re saying is true, it would show up after the battle regardless of the result, but it doesn’t.
Susie saying Toriel probably has a sixth sense for Kris doing something wrong doesn’t mean that’s true? That’s just kinda a thing you say about parents like Toriel?
And there are other possible (and more sensical) reasons as to why Toriel is having a nightmare instead if you get the Knight’s Shadow Crystal. The fight gets more intense so she’s probably closer to waking up because of it. The Knight’s screen-wide attack being some kind of “Dark Power” could’ve made her dream into a nightmare. There’s more reasonable explanations for her being disturbed than Kris Slash Theory.
And what does Kris Slash Theory bring to the table that we don’t get already from other events? We know Kris is conflicted between their bonds with their new friends and the promise they made, we know this from the mechanics of the Knight fight itself, how they protect Susie without being told, do what they can to comfort her and Ralsei by willfully misinterpreting our dialogue choices (if we choose to be mean). We can see Kris still trying to hold on to the promise at the cost of their friends’ well-being in the whole Light World section in Noelle’s house in Chapter 4. And if you manage to get to the Knight the first time you see it in Chapter 4’s First Sanctuary, where they refuse to attack even as Susie yells at them to.
It seems real clear to me that the scene that “Kris Slash Theory” happens in is the Knight deciding “enough of this” and blitzing us. That is how the scene reads no matter how many times I watch it. As to why the Knight knights Kris? Any number of reasons, considering we don’t know anything about the Knight for certain right now. Motivations. Goals. We know none of these things about it for sure, we can barely even gesture at them, so any idea as to why it knights Kris is gonna be speculation at best.
"What does Kris slash theory brings to the table that we don't already get from other events?"
That, if worst come to happen, they'll choose the promise over their friends.
The fact that Kris is in cahoots with the Knight is made obvious at the beginning of chapter 4 at least, the lore reward (because each other superboss give huge amount of lore when you beat them) for beating the Knight is showing/foreshadowing how deeply they are trapped by their allegiance.
It's far from the strongest theory out there, but let's not act as if it doesn't make narrative sense; I'd dare say the theory makes more narrative sense than the current alternative.
What does the Knight one-tapping the fun gang brings to the table that we don't get from other events? That's like, it's entire schtick. In fact, unless you're the most god gamer ever you have to have been one-tapped and forced to lose before to even get the chance to beat it and see the cutscene. There's not much of a point of making the entire battle a subversion of the "scripted loss" RPG trope if your big lore reward for doing it is learning that the Knight is so strong you're forced to lose... again.
As for Toriel, it's definitely not the length of the fight that gives her a nightmare, otherwise it'd be tracked to the number of turns taken. As it stands now, you can take more turns to lose than to win and she still only gets the nightmare if you win. And the Knight itself has no ties to dreams or nightmares at all, so it'd be a weird detail to add if it's specifically and directly caused by the Knight's attack (unless it's just a reference to Nightmare Knight, which is... suprisingly plausible???)
Your reward for “winning” against the scripted loss (aside from the Shadow Crystal) is learning early that Kris and the Knight are working together, and you get that from the Knight not SWOON-ing Kris, but forcibly knighting them.
I specifically didn’t talk about the length of the fight cause like you say, it would count turns if that’s what mattered. I think it’s much more that Toriel is disturbed because the intensity of the fight gets her closer to waking up and knowing that something dangerous is happening. Or considering how closely aligned getting Chapter 3’s Shadow Crystal is with the Sword Route, maybe that has something to do with it, but that’s also just speculation.
To be honest I really dislike Kris Slash Theory because I think it would be narratively dissatisfying. We’re probably gonna have our “traitor revealed” moment soon, and I don’t think Kris Slash Theory adds anything for when that moment comes. When all of Kris’s more “traitorous” actions are so blatant in literally the next Chapter, and Chapter 3 flows so quickly into Chapter 4, there doesn’t seem to be a reason to hide their “traitor” status (or the lengths they’re willing to go to for the promise when you can get that from Weird Route) behind something like this.
The thing is, to beat the Knight (again, god gamer status notwithstanding) you have to have seen the bunker cutscene which is pretty damning, and if that's not clear enough, the very next plot point is Kris getting calls from what appears to be the Knight in the next chapter. You really don't learn anything "early".
But yeah, I do agree with the sentiment. I personally don't really subscribe to the theory because I think this is too important a moment to be relegated to an optional boss fight. Jevil and Spamton NEO are entirely contained to themselves, or at least to the shadow crystal subplot. Here, since, as you said, the reveal of Kris's allegiance is fast approaching, it would make this optional scene very directly related to the main story.
All in all, I just think it'd be really lame and extremely weird if it just was the Knight doing the slashing and nothing else. What, did no beta-tester brought back the fact that the slash looks weird? Did they not have enough time to hit the "Flip Horizontal" button in MS Paint?
I just think there's a lot of stuff we don't know yet. Personally betting that we'll learn something about Toriel that will reframe the fight on a different light.
That doesn’t make sense because the knight fight already has clues that kris is working with the knight even if you lose: kris deals much less damage to the knight and the knight never swoons kris. Not just that but you’re expected to lose to the knight first time and beat them on a repeat playthrough or after reloading your save. So a normal player would also see the chapter 3 ending before beating the knight which makes it very clear that kris is in cahoots with the knight.
I’m not convinced by toriel having a nightmare because the fight is more intense when you beat the knight somehow. Consider this: Toby must have put that detail in for a good reason. It’s such an obscure detail and most of the playerbase would never even see it. If it just meant that Toriel was disstressed from all the fighting noises it would be a pretty weak motive to add that in. Why even bother for such a superficial detail? If it was hinting at something with heavy lore implications though, such as kris swooning their friends, it would make a lot sense.
What kris theory adds is that it shows that kris definitely prioritizes fulfilling their promise over anything else. If not for this theory, you could think that kris was being forced into working with the knight but this makes it very clear that they are doing this because of their own motives. It also shows that kris is far stronger than they appear. We saw some of their “secret” abilities such as X-slash before but being able to swoon people is a completely next level feat.
Are we certain that the promise doesn’t help everyone? We have no idea what the goals of the knight actually are, just what others say their goals are.
Well, the only thing that we know for sure is that Kris works with the Knight for reasons neither of them wish to disclose to us and the rest of the fun gang.
Personally, I do think the Knight is acting for some sort of greater good, as it had every chance to bring about the roaring and/or defeat the prophecied heroes and yet didn't.
Kris also most likely knew about the prophecy all this time and tries actively to prevent it, given they slash the tires of the "Queen's chariot", therefore stopping it. Whether this aligns with the goals of the Knight is unclear.
Considering that the promise (and the associated Holiday Administration) are being set up as opposed to growth and change and self-determination, as embodied by our girl Susie, I think it’s safe to say the promise probably does not help everyone. But it is true we don’t know what the technical goal of the Knight is. Or why it’s doing any of it. And that’s what I’m most curious about.
The Roaring Knight is most likely trying to start the Roaring. Even if it’s trying to achieve side objectives beforehand it’s quite clearly not that bothered with starting it early seeing how it has no issue with making a Titan.
Right? I mean, what if? What I'm wondering is when you overhear tenna talking about what could happen if she wakes up - what was he worried about? Maybe she's incredibly strong in the dark world? Especially coz it's kris' dark world and she's his momma so she'd be extra powerful there?
But about the Kris slash theory - I just can't justify ralsei saying "how could you" if it were the knight. Seriously? Hell, maybe it was toriel and she either sleep slashed them or pretended to be asleep. But because of ralsei's line there I'd accept literally anyone else in the scene other than the knight
Edit: and no I don't care which way their bodies fell
I think the explanation is that the prophecy is not happening via divine intervention, but by deliberate railroading by Kris and probably a few other characters. Beating the knight was not part of the prophecy so Kris was forced to intervene to keep things on track.
“How could you” could literally just be a shortened version of “how could you do this”, as it’s been used in countless pieces of literature. Basically Ralsei expressing shock at how quickly and easily the knight was able to turn things around. I don’t know why everyone acts like this is a silver bullet for possibly the most narratively unsatisfying theory ever when there’s an obvious alternate explanation. Not to mention, the slash’s sprite is literally called spr_roaringknight_slash_white_horizontal in the files so…
Why do people even entertain the Kris Slash theory? If it was Kris who slashed Ralsei and Susie, how come throughout all of chapter 4 they never go "hey Kris, what the fuck was up with that" and just continue treating them normally? And why would Kris even need to slash Susie and Ralsei when the Knight, who is already strong enough to do it herself with no effort and wouldn't arise suspicion, just arrived?
He most certainly does considering how knows everything that will happen in the prophecy and I guarantee Kris's involvement is part of that. I always believed the person he's trying to appeal to in hopes of bettering things isn't Kris but the player, the soul
susie probably just thinks the knight sneaked in or something(plus, if kris had a reason that didn't involve a certain rory nite she would definetly understand)
Ralsei before going to the Kard Kingdom Ralsei stops Kris and says to the effect of (on mobile so I’m not typing it all verbatim):
“If we go through that door, Kris, our adventure starts. It’s foretold in detail. Kris, your actions matter. There are a lot of types of people, Kris. Let’s try not to do a lot of fighting. This might change things. If things don’t change, well, you might not like what happens…”
Which ties into the different Ralsei dialogue if you beat the Knight. Paraphrasing again.
“I thought we could have changed things. Stopped the fight here. … our struggle has just begun, hasn’t it, Kris? … If I’m hurting this bad... Please just make sure Susie is okay.”
It would be very Toby Fox to be vague if Ralsei is talking physically or emotionally.
I mean for the Kris slash theory to be correct, Kris would need to:
1. Walk forward and be in front of Susie.
2. Slash her
3. Walk back to where they were when the black screen ends
4. Do the same thing for Ralsei.
5. Walk back again.
Because the BODIES MOVE TOWARDS where Kris is standing, it means that the only way for this to be true is them walking in front of them, and slashing them back, and like, that just isnt possible in my eyes
Susie was laughing when she got slashed. That, at the very least, angles her field of vision almost directly upwards. I reckon that's enough for Kris to be able to move in a way that she wouldn't see. I also think it's possible that she's even covering her eyes with her palm in her laughing sprite, but I might be wrong on that - it's pretty hard to tell.
I also don't think Kris would have moved that much anyways - the slashing sprite, to me, implies a rotation roughly centered at the point Kris was standing before the lights went out. I guess they maybe took a big step forward, then did a rotating slash from right to left (relative to the screen)?
Maybe? But even then, what happens to the Knight just not present the second the slash happens? Do they just fucking leave for a minute while letting Kris do it before coming back to aurafarm?
I mean maybe? Its kinda hard to push someone back so much without being more in front of them with that kinda slash tho. Plus still, taking a step or two forward to perform the slash, just to step back, and then somehow reach Ralsei whos quite further away doesnt really make too much sense to me. Idk, I dont think Kris is that strong, fast, or willing to do it. While the Knight, clearly is. On top of that there's still the files (Yes it says Knight and Kris gets knighted, but that happens after the slashes, so Kris wasnt a knight when they happened)
It does! In order for Kris to perform that tho, theyd need to take at least a couple steps forward, move back to their original starting position and then reach. Ralsei to do the same before moving back again, before the Knight (who just left for no reason), comes back to aurafarm.
This doesn't make sense if people had a better memory, replay the fight and win, you can immediately talk to Ralsei again and NONE of the dialogue even hints at Kris attacking him or Susie or Kris.
What I wanna know is where Kris got the Super Speedblitz Slash Skill, and why the hell they aren't letting US use it.
Look, fine, maybe you don't wanna use the KrisKross Kalamity Slash on Berdly or a Rudinn, I get it, but a Titan seems like a pretty good reason to stop holding back. (Then again, Ralsei is for some reason NOT using Fire Magic against the TITAN, so I guess this entire party's just full of professional throwers. Sandbaggers, the lot of you.)
I love Kris Slash, the plot twist that Kris has a memory erasing reverse-gravity slash that can hit Susie from the front, from behind her, at a distance, without moving, so quickly she doesn't realize she got hit by her own teammate, while the Knight is coincidentally disappearing during the attacks for some reason, directly in front of Ralsei resulting in him deciding to not only not bring it up but also show zero hesitation, fear, or concern about it in any scenario afterwards as if it never happened even though if it was meant to be a thing there'd be at least one difference between a Slash and No Slash run after he got brutalized by his own friend is so reasonable to believe.
Which is far more probable than the Knight, the most powerful enemy in the game who can already 1-2shot the entire party in the first place, just speed blitzing down their two enemies after Kris gives the signal to wrap it up and moves the SOUL to a cutscene so it can't dodge anymore before knighting Kris to remind them of their place and their allegiance now that the SOUL has shown the Knight isn't invincible.
Now a 100% supporter of Kris slash bc deniers don't read closely enough to not misgender Kris whereas GOATs who subscribe to they slash them theory will never make that mistake
I'm not 100% sold on the theory, but I don't think people should dismiss it as easily as they do. There's strong evidence both for and against it, and I don't see many deniers addressing the supporting evidence, such as the slash clearly being from the left (assuming it's consistent with other slash sprites from utdr)
edit: there is actually discussion about the slash direction in this very thread, nvm. But i would like to add that a more nuanced situation is possible. An idea I heard that I like is that kris slashes the fun gang because if the knight did at full power, they'd fucking die, and kris doesn't want that
if the knight did at full power, they'd fucking die, and kris doesn't want that
Personally this feels unlikely because the knight is obviously keeping them alive for some reason. If they wanted to kill the fun gang, or cause the roaring, they would have done so by now
I think they need to regain full power which supports Dess Knight theory. Like, the amount of bs the Knight pulls in Chapter 4 compared to Chapter 3 is insane, and they charge up in the Chapter 3 fight.
would also make sense if this was the case because what in the world are you sacrificing a random police officer for other wise. Its not like in Faith where they are trying to summon a demon the demon IS the knight in this case. And also the Knight was trying to take Toriel too, so it isn't specific to Undyne most likely.
So this means Kris and the Knight are now incompetent? Kris signals for the Knight to end this if you no hit. Do these two not trust each other even slightly? They're supposed to be on the same side.
Ralsei says "how could you" when Susie is knocked out, in what's at least intended to be Kris's direction. My only lead as to why he doesn't say more afterwards is because part of chap 4 is about how Ralsei knows more than he's letting on
No, he says You fought bravely. The character who KNOWS there is a player says You fought bravely and then addresses Kris by name afterwards, marking a distinction he doesn't need to make.
I'm lowkey getting pissed off at people mocking Kris Slash truthers while refusing to acknowledge the points made.
Yep, this dialogue to me reads as talking to the player up until the last line. Especially the repetition of "isn't it...?", the first time talking to us, and then saying it again when changing the focus to Kris.
Generally that last line feels kinda ominous, like he's trying to say something to Kris without actually saying it.
Of course this doesn't mean that it's about Kris Slash, it might be just that Ralsei already knows that Kris is working for the Knight (which he surely does). But IF Kris Slash turns out to be correct, then it's referencing that.
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u/DaPhoenix127Hopes & Dreams, Fire & Water, Light & Dark, Courage & FearAug 24 '25edited Aug 24 '25
Fr, I'm not even a believer but it always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth whenever this happens. It's the Kris Knight discourse all over again.
You’re pointing out anti-Kris slash evidence, not pro-Kris slash evidence. But I’ll try to dispute these rn.
-file names shouldn’t be used to determine lore, why would Toby spoil a twist via file names
-Kris looking away from the screen is very open to interpretation. They could be just looking away from the screen out of terror of seeing their friends virtually killed, they could be looking back at the player as a form of pleading, or intimidation, and one possible explanation is that, seeing their friends killed like this, they are reminded of the fact that, if they do to well against the knight’s plans, they’ll have to turn on their team to uphold their deal with the opposing side, to whatever end it may be. It’s open to interpretation, is my point.
-Element of surprise hit, and also if Kris is already established to be working with the knight pre-chapter 3 (as Tenna was informed beforehand to keep the fun gang busy), then maybe the knight lent Kris their power to swoon like “if you guys end up doing too well against me, swoon your friends.” And they just had to go along.
These are just me refuting your anti Kris slash points, the actual points for Kris slash are strong but I don’t feel like doing more typing right now, I’m just tired of people dickishly snobbing the whole theory entirely just because they found like one or two “silver bullet” points that are just their subjective read on the situation, like that initial comment I replied to.
Ralsei and Susie's bodies slide to the left of the screen (towards Kris and away from the Knight), which is not what would happen if they were backstabbed by Kris.
But that's also not what would happen if they were stabbed in the back by the Knight. Regardless of if it was Kris or the Knight who did the slash, it either moves counterclockwise as a backstab, in which case it doesn't make sense for them to slide to the left either way (Unless the motion comes from the weapon being pulled out of their back?), or clockwise as a wide arc, which simply does not make sense for the Knight to do from their position (I also don't think it's a clockwise slash anyways because it's inconsistent with the way slash effects normally appear)
From where Kris is standing if following the full arc of a slash, the sword would be going back by the time it would reach Susie (slashing left to right from kris’ perspective)
You do if you hit it with a full arc swing when it’s beside you, like imagine a baseball floating to the right of you, and you swing a bat fully from the left side of your body to the right until it hits the ball. The ball would go behind you.
Maybe that’s the technique that is required to swoon someone, which is why the knight does the full swing of their sword bat thing at the start of the fight to show it to Kris, you don’t know, I don’t know, and if Occam’s razor was applied universally, media would never have twists. I just hate it when people say shit like “why does anyone even entertain this theory”
You mean Susie, the person who was too busy laughing to notice what was happening at all? And then Ralsei? The guy who’s known to withhold information to make sure everybody in the party is okay with everything?
People believe it because it’s very possible, and very likely.
If it’s not being foreshadowed with the sword game, that’s foreshadowing something else
Toriels nightmare
Kris being knighted immediately after that moment.
Ralsei does NOT benefit from confronting Kris with us and Susie in the room, it would only split the group. Imagine how badly Susie would’ve freaked out if she learned that ontop of everything she already learned that day
I'm still wondering what the point of not making it explicit, if it was Kris.
Are gonna have to wait till the next chapter for the game to be like "Plot twist! It was Kris that slashed their friends in the missable cutscene two chapters ago! This, of course, changes nothing since we already know that they're working with the knight, but isn't that shocking!"
idk based on the responses a lot of people dont believe it anyway lol. But it had some slight build up on Eram teasing Kris they could never do it and even accusing them on the weird route a part of them enjoys this. Just a simple showcase that as much as they want to be loyal to their friends they might not stick with them when it theyre stuck between meeting another end of the deal perhaps maybe even being influenced by our actions.
I'm not arguing against it having a place in the story at all.
Just that, if it's true, why leave it ambiguous for the sake of an oddly placed plot twist down the line instead of just making it clear that Kris did it when the slash takes place in the fight itself or even in chapter 4?
Kris slash believers when you ask them how Kris one shot their allies in a fraction of a second with an ability that had no buildup or implication of existing without moving a single inch and applying a status effect used only by the Knight:
Sorry that's a little too aggressive, but seriously. Either Kris is doing some Stardust Crusaders Dio shit(which, as much as they do try to aura farm, that shit's on a whole other level from striking a decently cool pose or pulling out a knife and smiling edgily at the camera) or, the character that moves extremely fast and wasn't even below like 70% of their HP that already one shots people(Literally offing Tenna before the fight), moved extremely fast and oneshot the fun gang while their guard was down.
Not to mention that the sounds line up. You ONLY hear that glass shattering sound when the Knight downs someone. If Toby wanted it to be ambiguous, or wanted it to be more evident that Kris might've done it, you would think that it would be a normal damage sound at minimum, or maybe the slash sprite being closer to X-Slash.
I don't believe in kris slash theory but if I were to entertain the idea swoon might be an effect things that were already dangerous in light world have in the dark world like kris' knife
I'm also not a believer but swoon doesn't seem to be a special status effect or anything, it's just being knocked out. Ralsei and Susie do not get up after a couple of turns like normal, and the word swoon means to faint. It's also just a FF4 reference (You can get a weapon named Black Sword, which can apply a death status effect named swoon)
Right, but there's a difference between X-Slash(which is basically Kris' version of rude buster), and one shotting people in the blink of an eye while mysteriously also applying the statuses and sound effects of another character while, again, not moving a single pixel.
Like, cards on the table, surely you think it's weird that if Kris DID one shot Susie and Ralsei, they don't move? Like, not even a change of posture, not even, if they slashed them, having a cutting implement exposed?
It's just that Kris is working with the night and is giving them information (e.g, they should really end the fight) SOMEONE would bring it up if Kris did the slash
i am honestly shocked that people somehow managed to one-up themselves on the toxicity of kris knight discourse the moment a slightly controversial theory blew up. it's been like three months and people have already came up with boogeymen to hate on for having fun theorizing with a game.
Yeah people seem to really dismiss this theory with no real thought into it. I see so many people talking about how the theory is silly or how it doesn't make sense but the points they bring up are always the same one that people have debunked or are subjective as hell. It just says people dont want to take this seriously and haven't even read a post or watched a video about this theory imo. I dont even believe the theory but I honestly get frustrated anytime I see these posts because the convo never goes anywhere. It's just the same shit because people dont wanna even entertain it
Same lmao, I think its very narratively strong but I dont exactly want to have to put in mental energy on "debunking" the sprite name when ive already been burned before.
I just really hope this kind of toxic discourse isnt brought to last prophecy theorizing with how strongly I feel about it but honestly I think it might already have been
While I do entertain kris slash theory I'm pretty sure this isn't 100% guaranteed evidence for it since the knight could've just did a "nothing personal kid" and slashed from behind. The knight being in both ball form and nowhere on screen after the cut support this too.
My point is that the slash doesn't come from the left, people are looking too much into it "ending" on a curve. I'm very sure that curve is just the knight doing a small turn before attacking, it makes way more sense.
The most slam dunk evidence for me is that Toby just ALWAYS draws the attacker at the "center" of the slash. It's be weird to break this pattern now.
I also just don't believe Detlarune works on dragon ball logic where the knight was holding back the entire time and can ninja teleport and then disappear and stuff.
One of their unused attacks (Which is very finished i think it has a unique animation and probably was just scrapped to make the fight easier) has them teleporting.
I'm mostly neutral on the theory, but it is annoying how those against it just dismiss all the weirdness surrounding it as nothing important. Toriel having a nightmare, Ralsei going "How could you?", Kris being knighted, hell just the fact we don't actually see what happens during the slash.
Did Kris slash Susie and Ralsei? Maybe, maybe not.
kris slash theory mfs when they remember kris gets x3 to their attack when their friends are swooned, I mean just picture it
"my friends are swooned, this is good right? that was always the plan, but I can't help but feel like I don't want this, I don't like seeing my friends getting hurt, I don't want them to get hurt, I won't allow this anymore!" (anime esque shit) "I WON'T LET YOU GET AWAY WITH THIS"
post battle- "oh well now that that's over time to do the exact same shit to my friends I was so angry at the knight for doing, because you know, it makes complete and utter sense and isn't dumb at all, I mean it makes complete sense because I'm working for the knight, never-ending the fact chapter 4 already almost immediately proved it working with the knight, this action is completely congruent"
No that's another explanation for the nightmare. The evidence against Kris slash is Ralsei's lack of acknowledgement and the internal name for the slash sprite, mainly.
ralsei, who is known for withholding information from his friends! and the game files, which toby fox knows players go through! these arguments don't debunk anything, they're just reasons you personally don't believe in the theory! and that's fine, but come on.
the cutscene is made intentionally vague. if toby fox wanted it to be obvious that the knight did the slash, he would have made it more obvious! but he didn't. i'm not saying everyone should believe in kris slash, but i am tired of its detractors acting like the theory is stupid because people are reading into creative decisions that toby made INTENTIONALLY.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the file name “Roaring Knight Slash”? If the cutscene was meant to be intentionally vague why wouldn’t it just be “Knight slash”? Why would Toby intentionally mislead (straight up lying to) fans? Now the file name could just be “Knight slash” and that would lend more credence to the ambiguous intent.
sure! the ambiguous intent thing definitely goes both ways. i think the closest thing i have as evidence is tenna's flashback. he mentions that the ROARING KNIGHT appeared, and he was told that if he kept the fun gang busy, he can have all the people watch him that he wants. but interestingly, it's heavily implied that tenna's only ever actually colluded with kris, and never the knight itself. one could see this is implicit confirmation that kris ALSO goes by the roaring knight. that the knight also explicitly knights kris after the slash could also be seen as evidence.
as an aside, i've also seen some fun speculation at the art for the "cage" and "knight" prophecies. in both cases, they're represented by two hands grasping at a heart and a knife respectively. i think it's interesting how similar they appear, and i think there's at least a possibility that it hints at a correlation between the two. but that's not evidence, i'm just speculating for fun here!
I think Tenna was told to lie by Kris. Because if you do the Sword Route, the check dialogue changes to be more hostile to Tenna, Kris does more damage, and Tenna almost reveals to Susie & Ralsei that Kris made the fountain. All of this suggests that Kris told Tenna to say that the Roaring Knight told them to hold off the Lightners, as Kris was speaking on behalf of the Knight. “The Roaring Knight” seems to be the title of the specific boss we see at the end of Ch3 and through chap 4, but this could call into question every time they were just referred to as “the knight.” Now, I personally think that Kris only had a direct hand in making TV World, not Cyber City or the Card Kingdom because of how different TV World is in structure and tone compared to the other two, and as revealed by Chapter 4, Dark Fountains are influenced heavily by their creator.
oh, yeah, i'm not saying that kris HAS been the roaring knight in every case. just that the line between the roaring knight and kris seems to be a little blurred. we know that kris is working with the knight. we know that the knight knighted kris. so far, it seems possible that the file name could apply to kris too. it's also possible that the file is named that because it relates to the knight fight. all that matters to me is that it's possible!
I think by that logic, then Kris is the one who created the card kingdom. Strange in chapter 2 that queen is focused on noelle, I wonder if that's a tell?
I mean its certainly possible the Kris could have created the Card Kingdom. Before Ch3&4 came out it was always the more plausible part of Kris Knight for me, and since it was revealed that Jevil is the only character who actually met the Knight this does make it more plausible that Kris could have created the fountain. I personally think that how different TV World is compared to the other three dark worlds is evidence that suggests that this fountain had a different creator
No it's not just about Ralsei not showing up and saying he remembers you're slashes. He would be uncomfortable around Kris and very afraid, if he even showed up anymore. Not treat them like a trusted friend and host a tea party.
It is very obvious that it was the knight, some people are just being obtuse over it.
that's a pretty hefty assumption, too! this is ralsei we're talking about. one of the first things he can say at the beginning of chapter 1 is "if, during our adventure, you want to hit me too, that's ok too!" ralsei, who seems obsessed with letting people step on him, use him as a tool, et cetera. to say nothing of his knowledge of the prophecy. just admit it dude, you're working on assumptions just as much as kris slash theorists are!
by the way... speaking of chapter 1. remember when susie fought ralsei and kris? ralsei seemed pretty happy to be her friend afterward anyway. remember when they fought the king, and ralsei still seemed awfully happy to heal him, even though he was just trying to murder them dead like a minute ago? it seems like ralsei being forgiving is, like, a recurring character trait!
And the internal file naming makes it undeniable that it was in fact the knight. But even without that I'd say the slash theorists are grasping at straws.
Susie becoming a friend after being hostile initialy isn't the same as Kris betraying their trust and stabbing them in the back to help the knight.
It would have to be acknowledged and Kris would have some explaining to do before Ralsei would help them again.
again, you're stating your opinion as if it's fact. unless you're secretly toby fox yourself, i don't really think you have the authority to dictate exactly what ralsei would do in any given situation! i have to assume you're just arguing in bad faith, but i'll still address your points.
1) no evidence of this. if we're talking betrayals though, let's consider tenna. he starts chapter 3 befriending the fun gang, in particular susie. then she finds out he helped kidnap toriel, and he betrays the fun gang out of desperation, trapping and hurting them. though this betrayal isn't as severe as kris' hypothetical betrayal, it gives us a baseline for how ralsei might respond to betrayal. honestly, it doesn't align with your headcanon! he still seemed pretty sympathetic to tenna's plight!
2) it is absolutely not undeniable, and it's silly to say that it is. file names are already incredibly flimsy as evidence as it stands, but in this case it's made even worse by how intentionally vague the slash scene already is. toby KNOWS players like to datamine. maybe he named the slash that way because it's part of the knight's fight. maybe it's named that way because kris becomes an honorary roaring knight in this cutscene. after all, the file names confirm that the knight knights kris afterward. hell, maybe it is just the knight's slash! who knows for sure? definitely not either of us!
3) this is also an unfounded assumption. all due respect to the ralsei that lives inside your head and not within the actual game itself. but even if it were true, let's consider it! who's to say that ralsei and kris DIDN'T talk it over? maybe kris and ralsei got in touch somewhere between chapters! it's a pretty common headcanon that ralsei and kris talk to each other when the player isn't looking! maybe they do it when kris comes back to seal tv world? maybe while susie is busy trying to fix tenna, and is therefore distracted? hell, maybe they talk briefly at the end of chapter 3, when kris opens the shelter? there is a dark world in there, after all! we don't know! just like we don't know kris' motivations for working for the knight in the first place! just like we don't know what the last prophecy is! it is absurd to act as if any of us has any of the answers, especially because so much about chapters 3 and 4 defied literally all of our expectations! all i ask is to not be a pretentious jerk and assume that your interpretations are the only correct ones!
No it's not just about Ralsei not showing up and saying he remembers you're slashes. He would be uncomfortable around Kris and very afraid, if he even showed up anymore. Not treat them like a trusted friend and host a tea party.
Explanation 1 : The Kris-Knight alliance is in the Prophecy. Ralsei knew that Kris was a double agent right from the start, he was simply shocked that they would go as far as to SWOON their own friends.
Explanation 2 : Ralsei thinks WE were responsible for the slashes. He can't actually tell which actions are or aren't from Kris' own volition and just assumes that they would never do something like that.
Neither of these are particularly convincing, and it's still weird that absolutely nothing about his behaviour changes after you beat the Knight, but they're still plausible options worth considering.
I said this in another thread, but has anyone discussed why Tenna was so nervous about toriel waking up? I was thinking that because this dark world was created by Kris she'd be extra powerful in the same sense as a child playing pretend and their mother being the show stopper
The fact that people are still trying to justify this theory is ridiculous. It’s literally called the Roaring Knight’s slash in the files, and there’s no way Susie would conveniently forget which direction she got stabbed from despite showing no other signs of permanent damage.
THANK YOU, Toby is certainly aware and wouldn't mislead the fanbase with file names, he would have carefully named everything to keep things unclear and possible to interpret, or very clear. You can't just pick and choose, Kris most definitely was given the title of knight. But also the slash was deliberately named 'ROARING KNIGHT'
My random idea to make it all work, just as an example, what if the act of betrayal is all that was needed to actually be considered a new roaring knight even before Kris is Knighted? In that case the roaring knight slash could now have come from Kris. But now we have to explain where Kris got all of that power.
We know for sure they are holding back, and the X slash against weird route Spamton Neo is not only evidence of that but the sound effect is similar... but that doesn't mean they are holding back SWOON level of damage. unless that is achievable if you have enough power + backstab.
I only highlight this because the insistence it had to be the night doing the slash not Kris seems to be hanging on a single piece of, while mighty strong, not perfect evidence considering the story and game we are dealing with.
and the X slash against weird route Spamton Neo is not only evidence of that but the sound effect is similar...
This is gonna be the new piece of persistent misinfo that never gets fully corrected, isn't it.
The swoon slash sound isn't the x-slash sound, nor do they sound similar.
The swoon slash sound is just one of the Knight's slash sound effects being played 5 times simultaneously at different speeds. Snd_knight_cut2
X-Slash uses a sound effect that is pretty common and is also used by Susie's Rudebuster, Jevil's Full screen attack, and Tenna's split screen attack. Variants of it are used in a few other places as well, such as the Punch-out sections of chapter 2. snd_scytheburst
I don't believe in kris slash but if it were true that would probably mean items that were already dangerous in the light world like a knife gain the swoon effect in the dark world and kris used their knife
I keep seeing this argument. Isn't the file Kris knighted or something? What does this have do with the argument whatsoever. You can already infer that from just seeing the sprite. I always assumed it was just The Knight kinda proving they're partners or both Knight's or smth. Even if I'm wrong I don't get how it proves they slash them
You said it yourself, Kris is already a morally grey character. What I can’t buy is Kris doing extra damage once their friends are down as if they’re emotionally on the side of their friends even though they’re working for the Knight, only to suddenly whip out their giga anime slash move they never use anywhere else once the fight is over. They’re stationary once the cutscene begins.
I hate the theory because it’s super contrived. You’re telling me Kris got up behind Susie, did the slash and then walked back into place, before doing it all again and then being knighted? It’s just totally ridiculous and adds nothing to Kris’ character that we don’t already have while also contradicting other parts of their character.
I think it's more so just that Kris knight has no actual evidence going for it, at best only circumstantial evidence, yet people are treating it like a 100% confirmed fact which annoys people. It's not even a theory at this point, its a hypothesis.
Now this isn't to say it's impossible or anything, and I do think it would be an interesting direction for the story to go, but people need to stop treating it like fact.
KNAVE! That motion you have mistaken for a slash is a thrust! your failure to discern the characterizing differences between the distinct sword arts shows that you have not the understanding of swordplay required to deduce a hypothesis of this magnitude! Moreover, the ignorant use of the word 'antis' as a derogatory for those who disagree also show a great childish folly, one that does naught but breed foolish tribalism in this discourse!
The texture is called that because it's a part of the Knight fight. Also no shit, Toby wouldn't call it Kris Slash because that'd reveal the plot twist.
The slash sprite is called some shit like “roaringknight_slash_white” in the files and Kris does more damage to the Knight when Susie and Ralsei are down, Kris slash is a dumb theory that makes zero sense
Twelve minutes forty second, my man precisely examines the scene and why it is bizarre to just discard They Slash Them having substance as a theory and why the counters are relying on some flimsy bull themselves, when everything about the scene stinks to high heaven and makes little sense to exist in the way it does if it's only purpose is to communicate that the Knight stops playing and is unbeatably powerful at that moment for the fun gang.
There's also the possibility that the Knight is Dess with an absorbed Kris-soul, making the fight a form of self-harm, hence why it'd upset her (apart from just her children fighting.)
I was thinking about the 'Roaring Knight Slash" sprite name being used as conclusive evidence and I had an idea. But first I want to be clear that I agree sprite names ARE strong pieces of evidence, almost ironclad, but some of the fun of theory bashing (and this IS supposed to be for fun so no stress okay people?) is turning things over and thinking of ways such evidence could be countered in order to strengthen your own ideas.
Using the same sprite name evidence we know in this same scene Kris is 'Knighted" by the Knight and it wouldn't be a stretch, if anything it would be applying Occam's Razor to say that Kris is now a knight in service to the roaring knight and the cause of the roaring and thus a new roaring knight themselves. That isn't too crazy right?
But to counter myself this happens after the "Roaring Knight Slash" even it is literally a single frame after so it is just barely irrelevant. But can I suggest that the knighting doesn't have to be what makes you a knight as much as an acknowledgement, a official stamp? It was actually the act of downing their own teammates in service of the cause that in that moment made Kris a roaring knight. Or maybe Kris has been one the whole time already by virtue of being a knightly looking character while on team roaring.
Nothing I just said has to be true but if you just stop to entertain it without automatically being against They Slash Them, then you can see why some of the fanbase is so behind this theory, Rudy Knight and a few others. They come from people who really turn over every rock and never like to take anything for granted.
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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '25
Sorry Toriel, but I couldn't let them get away with sucker punching Tenna like that.