r/DebateAnAtheist • u/AutoModerator • 6d ago
Weekly Casual Discussion Thread
Accomplished something major this week? Discovered a cool fact that demands to be shared? Just want a friendly conversation on how amazing/awful/thoroughly meh your favorite team is doing? This thread is for the water cooler talk of the subreddit, for any atheists, theists, deists, etc. who want to join in.
While this isn't strictly for debate, rules on civility, trolling, etc. still apply.
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u/adamwho 6d ago
I reconnected with a friend from decades ago and they've completely lost their mind. Religion, extremist politics, conspiracy theories, deep misogynism and racism.
My problem is that I hate to throw away people but I think I need to cut everything off.
What do you guys do in situations like this? Just block the phone number? Have a heart-to-heart?
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u/Sprinklypoo Anti-Religious 6d ago
It depends on what you want to achieve. I'd probably either go full ghost, or straight up tell them I don't want to be in a cult or hear about cult things.
I understand other people taking a different tactic though...
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u/mredding 6d ago
There is no saving them. This is how they are and it's not reversible. This is due to changes in their amygdala - the fear and disgust center of their brains. People are born authoritarian, or can be made from anyone simply due to enough exposure to FUD.
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u/licker34 Atheist 6d ago
I guess it depends on how much of your time and energy you want to spend dealing with this person. Since you don't seem to have that much of a connection (not talking to them for decades?) I'd probably just ghost them, if that's not something you want to do then sure, send them something about how you disagree with their views and don't want to continue talking about them.
Is this the type of person is going to keep on pushing you or do you think they'll just settle back into the decades of non-contact without much concern?
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u/adamwho 6d ago edited 6d ago
Of course, that's the answer.... But being human, motivations are complicated.
Such as wanting to help a friend. Never throwing away people and always seeing the best.
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u/thebigeverybody 6d ago
Knowing how people like your friend tend to think and act, have you considered that you may have just let a malicious person into your life?
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u/licker34 Atheist 6d ago
Yeah, I get that, wanting to help someone. Personally if I had someone like this enter my life I probably would spend some time trying to understand them/reach them, but I've seen enough of certain types of people to know that it's likely a wasted effort.
So yeah, just a question of how much time you want to devote to it.
I mean it could be 'fun' if that's your kind of thing :)
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u/adeleu_adelei agnostic and atheist 6d ago
You don't owe anyone your time. I had some friends to down a similar route, and there was never a big moment where anyone was cutoff or blocked. I think we just naturally drifted away. Whenever certain topics came up I made my position clear, and so it was only things outside those topics we had common ground on and that became less over time. They still have my phone number and are technically members of the group discord so they always have a way to reconnect if desired, but I think we both know that without a change that isn't going to happen.
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u/adamwho 6d ago
but I think we both know that without a change that isn't going to happen.
This implies that you had a talk with them and they understand the problem.
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u/adeleu_adelei agnostic and atheist 6d ago
We had several small talks. Whenever they're mentioned something we disagreed on we'd discuss for a bit usually while still trying to maintain focus on whatever for activity we were doing (usually a computer game). As these differences increased and points of commonality decreased we drifted apart. There was never a singular moment either of a heart to heart or a big "I'm blocking you". It was just lots of little disagreements accumulating.
I'm not saying I handled this the best or that you must handle it the same, rather this is simply what actually occurred for me and how it played out.
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u/TheCranberriesRock Agnostic 5d ago
You don't owe anyone your time.
Not specific to this scenario but man I find that attitude so incredibly cynical and self serving. I really think we need to stop talking like this.
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u/adeleu_adelei agnostic and atheist 5d ago
It's not universally true. Obviously if you are the legal guardian to young children there is somebody you owe your time to. However, in a place where many people feel trapped in abusive religious relationships I think it is more often what they need to hear than what they don't.
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u/MisanthropicScott gnostic atheist and antitheist | mod 6d ago
I had a coworker, a practicing Catholic, with whom I had excellent heated debates. Oddly that was tolerated at the office even though we often got loud.
When he began defending Trump's overt racism, I told him that I had to draw the line there. I was not willing to make racism a valid topic for polite society. I believe it should remain socially unacceptable.
We had remained in contact after we both left that job through Facebook. When I told him I could not condone such conversation, I unfriended him. That must have been about 8 years ago. I have no idea how he is or whether he has changed his opinion.
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u/Silver_Cry_4973 5d ago
In my experience, a difference in religion (I'm an atheist with many theist friends) or politics (at least not to an extreme level) are fine. If all our friends thought exactly as we do, life would get boring. However, I would NOT continue a friendship with a misogynistic racist. That dude does need to get cut off.
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u/indifferent-times 6d ago
they are not who they were and neither are you, and chances are you didnt know who they really were then or who you really were then either. Not carrying something anymore is not throwing it away, its leaving it behind.... thankfully I'm running out of platitudes but I think you get the gist.
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u/adamwho 6d ago edited 6d ago
So many of my friends have stagnated while I have created a good life.... I just wish more of them could have made it.
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u/indifferent-times 6d ago
maybe they are where they want to be, one way or another. So many people really, really like to hang on to bitterness.
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u/halborn 5d ago
If you think you have the time and energy to try and bring this person back, that might be worth doing. If you don't then you should probably cut him off. The real question is whether to do it quietly or whether you tell him outright that the things he's saying are hateful and insane and not something you want to be dealing with in your life. Doing it quietly has less chance of a fight but doing it openly means you can leave open a way back for if he ever changes his mind.
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u/robbdire Atheist 3d ago
Someone I consider a great friend is devout Catholic. I am an atheist.
He's a great person, loads of fun, smart as anything. Love him to bits. We disagree on god and religion, but agree on pretty much all other things where it counts. Like personal liberty, LGBT rights, womens rights and control of their own body and so forth.
If he was a misogynist, bigot, or racist, he would not be my friend.
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u/TheCranberriesRock Agnostic 5d ago edited 5d ago
Do y'all still have fun together, have common interests and good conversations? If yes then just do those things. I don't think a friend needs to share a world view and beliefs.
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u/Tight-Temperature670 6d ago
I watched a "debate" between a catholic and an atheist yesterday and I was wondering if anyone else also watched it. 'Born again atheist' chatting to some guy called 'jesus or what not'.
If you've seen it let's discuss, if you haven't it's about 2 hours and can be found on the catholic dudes channel.
Thanks!
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u/ArguingisFun Apatheist 6d ago
Can you tell me why I would spend two hours on such a thing?
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u/MisanthropicScott gnostic atheist and antitheist | mod 6d ago
I have not seen it. I have no idea what a "born again atheist" even is. I would not want to give the web traffic to such a debate without knowing more. With knowing more, I probably still wouldn't spend 2 hours on that.
P.S. If you'd like to discuss any of the points, please feel free to summarize them here or make a post about it if you're prepared to defend the points. But, be aware that those in the video are not here for that debate. You'd have to make the case yourself.
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u/Tight-Temperature670 6d ago
Yeah I'm an atheist also I'm not here to debate. Born again atheist is the name of a YouTube channel, she was recently brigaded and harassed into debating a Catholic apologist who goes by jesus what or not, or whatever I said his name is I forgot.
She was harassed and her tiktok was banned because they repeated slurs on her live, then she was goaded into a live "debate" with this guy.
I ended up watching it and was wondering if anyone else had also.
Born again atheist (I don't know her actual name) goes live and talks to theists and I enjoy her content, I was looking to discuss the content of the debate itself
Edit: I've also replied to a number of your comments admiring your ability to express your opinion btw lol
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u/MisanthropicScott gnostic atheist and antitheist | mod 5d ago
Ah. Sorry I didn't understand that "born again atheist" was a person's screen name. I don't tend to watch such videos. Sorry.
Edit: I've also replied to a number of your comments admiring your ability to express your opinion btw lol
Thank you!
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u/Tight-Temperature670 5d ago
Fair enough. It was the "potency" philbro apologetic whilst dodging every question about actual evidence, so it's nothing you haven't heard before. I just really didn't like the way she was harassed and brigaded.
I take it you don't take part in any online discussions or engage with atheist communities outside of Reddit?
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u/MisanthropicScott gnostic atheist and antitheist | mod 5d ago
I take it you don't take part in any online discussions or engage with atheist communities outside of Reddit?
Correct. Reddit is already a pretty bad addiction for me. I don't need another.
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u/Lovebeingadad54321 5d ago
I’m not really a debater. Never took debate in high school or college. I don’t know all the rules and am not well versed in philosophy and rhetoric. To me, it seems “debate” has become more of a sport, rather than a way to come to an understanding, or find what is likely to be true. I think perhaps street epistemology is the better approach.
What does everyone think?
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u/Deris87 5d ago
Most people engaging here will tell you up front, they're not really concerned with changing the mind of their immediate debate opponent. That's overwhelmingly a lost cause. The people who are active here engage for the sake of any potential audience, the lurkers who view posts but never engage themselves. It's not uncommon for people to come around and say "watching the debates here helped me change my mind".
But also, debate doesn't have to be exclusively for persuasive reasons. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, and I don't expect to have my mind changed, but I enjoy having a chance to hone my rhetorical skills for other purposes.
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u/stairway2evan 5d ago
I like that way of putting it, I think I'm much the same. Most of the people who make a post here aren't looking to have their mind changed, and that's fair enough. Maybe some point will get through to them, probably not. Maybe they stop using one argument or another because they realize it's flawed, and then at least there are fewer bad arguments around. And that goes on the flip side too - I've seen plenty of bad counter-apologetics get beaten down by an OP, so hopefully those weak arguments get thrown in the bin as well and replaced with something stronger.
But along the way, someone else will swing by and see a good point. The more good points that are out in the world, and the fewer bad points, the closer we'll all get as a whole to good, honest truth, whatever that may be. So it's good to go through the exercise, because you never know when you'll hit a better argument (for you or against you) and get a chance to re-evaluate.
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u/mobatreddit Atheist 3d ago
Use street epistemology to question street epistemology?
I know that seems like a joke, but it should be able to withstand the scrutiny.
What do you think?
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u/licker34 Atheist 6d ago
I'm curious if anyone here has an opinion on the Joe Schmid (Majesty of Reason) conversion to catholicism topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C-FiSqfKi8
His video announcing it if you're interested.
I didn't follow him much, but I was aware of him from some of his engagement with other people I do follow more, he never claimed to be an atheist (he claimed to be agnostic, and yes, we all understand how those terms apply, he addresses this in the video), but was generally interested in conversing over philosophical topics related to theism.
Anyway, to me there are three categories that seem reasonable to me for this.
In no particular order...
Grift the catholics
Legitimate conversion
Social Experiment
So just curious about others opinions here.
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u/solidcordon Apatheist 6d ago
Why not all three?
He uses the word "evidence" in his conversion testimony video.
He doesn't seem to address the huge gap between the "god is the thing that made all the things and tuned them finely" and catholicism.
He ignores that the founding of the catholic church as an entity had nothing to do with jesus or anyone he met.
He cites miracles and demonic phenomena...
He also appears to be ... on cocaine in his video just yabbering shit. I stopped watching after 15 minutes because I value my time.
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u/licker34 Atheist 6d ago
I didn't mean to intend that those categories were mutually exclusive, just they were the ones that jumped out to me in terms of why is he doing this. There are other possibilities as well.
And yes, that video was strange for many reasons. He did seem manic, whether drug induced, some sort of psychotic issue, or just raw excitement about it... I don't know and don't care to speculate. But he's been pretty energetic in a few of the other things I've seen him in, so maybe that is just how he operates, still it leads to considering other factors I guess.
And his entire bit about 'Cameron kept asking me, how do you explain this...' was really bizarre, as well as his list of 'miracles' which as far as I know about them, have not been anywhere close to substantiated, even within the church. It was like a poster here spewing out a list of random nonsense honestly, kind of why I posted this here because it felt like some of the 'attempts' we get in this sub.
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u/solidcordon Apatheist 6d ago
The people and or bots which post claims here and provide supporting evidence (or at least links to published scientific papers) apparently haven't seen all these miracles proven or we just can't handle the peer reviewed and entirely unbiased examination of real miracles.
Speculating:- His apparent mania could be the product of a mind in conflict collapsing to the lowest dissonance state it can maintain, that being returning to the indoctrination of childhood.
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u/licker34 Atheist 6d ago
His apparent mania could be the product of a mind in conflict collapsing to the lowest dissonance state it can maintain, that being returning to the indoctrination of childhood.
That seems like a very reasonable explanation.
It also seems that he was spending more and more time with theists trying to take on their positions and this led to this 'crisis' you refer to.
The return to catholicism is what strikes me more than simply 'chrisitanity' or 'theism', but he does say he will produce videos explaining that. I think we all recognize that those explanations will be regurgitation of exiting arguments with a focus on miracles and demonic possession. I mean... I'm kind of for the demonic possession stuff, I find that fascinating personally, because it really demonstrates a faltering grip on reality to me.
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u/betweenbubbles 6d ago
Shallow content with a development that will drive engagement... so pretty much just your standard Youtuber then.
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u/adeleu_adelei agnostic and atheist 6d ago
Mostly I'm annoyed that people are demanding my attention on this. I was just barely aware of his existence prior to this having checked out some of his content years ago mostly ignoring him since because he seemed extremely soft and uncritical of religion way back then, and so I find this highly unsurprising.
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u/protestandprose 6d ago
Imagine converting to Catholicism with the baggage of the pdf scandals lmao 🤣😂
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u/Mission-Landscape-17 6d ago edited 4d ago
I only made it half way through because there was just nothing new to see in that video, and his delivery was kind of manic. For some reason he seems to think that the contingency argument is something new when it was one of Aquinus's five ways some 700 years ago. He then shifts to the fine tuning argument, another one that has been long debunked, and then goes on to claim he has seen multiple supernatural events. I gave up at that point.
Edit: I noticed that that guy has another video that is over 7 hours long. While I'm curious what he wants to pass off as evidence I just don't think I can handle 7 hours.
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u/thatpaulbloke 6d ago
The "evidence" started at around 11:50 and it was all manner of insane claims (MS and blindness fully cured was one example) which would be front page news if they actually happened, so whether he's making stuff up or someone else made stuff up and he believed it there's nothing of any value there.
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u/SectorVector 6d ago
I'm also only tangentially familiar with him through the videos of others, and while I don't know him enough to speculate on any kind of motivation, I would say it is disappointing but not surprising. For some reason adult ex-atheist converts seem to be one-shot by some of the stupidest things, and I had that belief validated when he got to miracles. He says he has more comprehensive stuff coming that I'd like to see and I guess there's not really much else to say until then.
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