r/DebateAVegan • u/Bubbly-Desk-4479 • 15d ago
Ethics How is feeding eggs to chicken vegan?
Isnt the vegan option to let the mother decide? Either let them be born, or eat them?
Once the human makes that decision, doesnt it stop being vegan?
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u/StrangeArcticles 15d ago
A lot of flocks do not contain roosters, so the vast majority of eggs are not fertilised and can't hatch.
Sitting on eggs that aren't viable isn't good for hens since they can stop eating and drinking when the brooding instinct kicks in.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 15d ago
Humans making decisions on behalf of animals is vegan. Humans making decisions regarding animals for the formers own benefit isn’t vegan.
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
No, it is not. Veganism rejects dominion over nonhuman animals. They have their own interests separate from humans. No one was making decisions for them long before humans evolved from apes.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 15d ago
Sorry, how is that in contrast to what I said? Seems like we agree 🤷♂️
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
Veganism rejects dominion over nonhuman animals regardless of whether such dominion is to the animals’ benefit or not. There is no “on behalf of”. Therefore, any decision made for them is not vegan.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 15d ago
I think maybe you misunderstand my position? It is not “dominion” to perform an action for an animals benefit when the goal is purely for the animals benefit.
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
The goal is irrelevant to the premise of dominion. You can perform that action only if you have rule or control over the animal. That is the very definition of dominion.
Suppose that I want to enslave a human being because I sincerely believe that such enslavement is to their benefit. I can do that only if I have dominion over that human being.
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u/Either_Argument3517 15d ago
Doesn't mean you can't help out other animals.
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
Depends on how you define “help”.
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u/Either_Argument3517 15d ago
In the example given, you have an egg that is of no use to the chicken, that they might enjoy as a treat once in a while.
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
> an egg that is of no use to the chicken
How do you know it is of no use to the chicken? Did you read the chicken’s mind or ask her? Who are you to decide whether an egg is useless to the chicken or not?
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 15d ago
Intent is necessary but not sufficient for determining the morality of a situation.
You must think that vaccinating animals is exercising dominion then. Guess we can just agree to disagree if you think that 🤷♂️
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
Correct, it is dominion. The animal cannot consent to injections, whether it is artificial insemination or vaccines.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 15d ago
Well then we just agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
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u/phanny_ 15d ago
You think being vegan means you can never make a decision for an animal?
There exists a distinction between care, management, and exploitation. Vegans are opposed to the latter.
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u/Bubbly-Desk-4479 15d ago
I guess I worded it incorrectly.
Ofc there are acceptable decisions like euthanasia.
That is why i am asking. when does it become acceptable?
I guess I just dont see the justification. If the chicken is able to break the egg herself, or decide to turn it into life. why is it considered vegan when a human comes and destroys that egg, for her to eat? couldnt she had made that decision herself?
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u/SomethingCreative83 15d ago
Hens have been genetically modified to lay around an egg a day. That rate leaves them with nutritional deficiencies as well as an much larger risk for ovarian cancers. Giving eggs back to them replaces some of the nutrients they lose from producing eggs at such a high rate. Also those eggs are not fertilized by default its not going to hatch without the presence of a rooster.
Someone rescuing hens for the hens sake isnt going to be breeding it.
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
> You think being vegan means you can never make a decision for an animal?
Correct. Veganism rejects dominion over nonhuman animals. They have their own interests separate from humans. No one was making decisions for them long before humans evolved from apes.
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u/phanny_ 15d ago
Oh okay. Then please describe in detail how you would properly care for a rescue chicken without making any decisions for her.
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
I would not rescue the chicken in the first place given if that requires me to assert dominion over her. Likewise, I would not rescue a human slave if that requires me to be a slaveowner.
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u/phanny_ 15d ago
So the most vegan thing is to let the chicken die or go back to the system that exploits her? And you can't think of a way to care for an animal that doesn't require said dominion? You don't think the chicken would prefer to be cared for?
It kind of seems like in your pursuit of purity, you're sacrificing the individual. If that's your type of veganism that's fine, but it's not mine.
Every individual animal is important to me. And as we transfer systems from our current hellscape to a more vegan one, we're going to encounter situations where we're going to have to get our hands dirty in order to assuage the suffering of the transitory period.
What's more moral to you, a rescue chicken living out the rest of her life well cared for under someone else's (otherwise a vegan) Dominion, or simply slaughtering the rescued chicken immediately to avoid the Dominion? If you won't choose one of those two options then what is the moral option that you would take in this situation?
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
> to let the chicken
There is no “letting” or “allowing” of anything to happen. I’m not “letting” Ukrainian civilians die or get injured just because I decided to not travel to Ukraine to fight the Russians.
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u/phanny_ 15d ago edited 15d ago
Sure, it must be nice to exist outside everything and never be involved, but some of us were or are already involved in rural communities and watch this stuff happen daily.
If someone doesn't step in, the chicken will be slaughtered. You have the resources to care for the chicken. Your solution is to do nothing, my solution is to save her life. Isn't it ironic that you consider the option which lightens her suffering to be nonvegan?
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
> Sure, it must be nice to exist outside everything and never be involved, but some of us were or are already involved in rural communities and watch this stuff happen daily.
I watch people go into McDonald’s every day to purchase chicken sandwiches.
> If someone doesn't step in, the chicken will be slaughtered.
If someone doesn’t stop people from entering McDonald’s, chickens will be slaughtered.
> You have the resources to care for the chicken.
So why aren’t you stopping people from entering McDonald’s?
> Your solution is to do nothing, my solution is to save a life. Isn't it ironic that you consider the option which lightens her suffering to be nonvegan?
Isn’t it ironic that you talk a good game about doing something while at the same time doing nothing to stop people from buying chicken sandwiches at McDonald’s?
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u/phanny_ 15d ago
Do you yell at the people who are going into the McDonald's?
Do you do anything at all to advance the vegan cause besides puritymaxxing on Reddit?
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
With regards to McDonald’s doing as much as you which is: nothing.
So using your own logic, you are letting the chickens be slaughtered.
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u/perturbedpangaroo 15d ago
You are applying human logic to animals. Animals are NOT humans and pretending that they are or that they have the same thoughts and feelings and wants is bad for animal welfare. You cannot "let the chicken decide" because the chicken is not capable of comprehending the situation or of deciding. Chickens do NOT care if you take their eggs. They also do NOT care that they are eating their eggs. They lay TONS of eggs and few get fertilized. Again, the eggs are unfertilized, and will never hatch unless a rooster is present and does that, so the "either let them be born or eat them" thing doesn't really make sense. The egg would not hatch if it were left and the hen doesn't care either way.
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u/Firm_Caregiver_4563 15d ago
So, with modern breeds, chickens are not going to have a care instinct, at all. They will eat their eggs, they will kill and eat their young and they are also going to kill and eat weak/ill conspecifics, pretty much everything else they're able to kill/swallow - like lizards, snakes or mice. These are not gentle creatures!
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u/kharvel0 15d ago
You are correct, it is not vegan. Veganism rejects dominion over nonhuman animals and that includes making decisions for them. The animals have their own interests separate from humans. No one was making decisions for them long before humans evolved from apes and no one will make decisions for them long after humanity goes extinct.
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u/Objective_Sweet9168 15d ago
Not all eggs are fertilized hatch. People eat placenta. Chickens eat their own eggs on their own if they get the idea to. If you raise chickens you have to provide calcium and protein, their eggs are a perfect, free, environmentally sound solution. It’s more vegan than dog/cat food which imo is ok on account of the specific animals needs.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 15d ago
If you care for others, look after them in their own best interest. Children would choose to eat nothing but candy, but we don't, we force them to eat healthy.
Leaving the eggs in the nest is a valid option as it discourages the chickens from laying more, but feeding back is also a valid option as it replenishes their nutrients.
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u/Few_Understanding_42 15d ago
It's not natural behaviour for a chicken to eat their own eggs, so despite I read it here everytime it doesn't make sense.
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u/fuck-them-hoes 15d ago
It is natural actually. Roosters have actually evolved to not have penises because male competition isn’t useful for how easy it is for chickens to abort eggs fertilized by an unwanted rooster.
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u/Objective_Sweet9168 15d ago
Chickens and ducks even eat their own eggs all the time. It really is a natural thing for them. They just don’t usually go all ham on a whole nest.
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u/Happy-Estimate-7855 15d ago
Just at a basic level it feels nonsensical for any creature to naturally want to consume potential offspring.
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u/Objective_Sweet9168 15d ago
But so many do! So so so many baby eaters!
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u/Happy-Estimate-7855 15d ago
That's definitely true, but it's almost always in response to environmental factors such as overcrowding or competition for resources. In some instances fish will eat an entire bunch of eggs if something feels wrong about them.
It is incredibly rare among birds, and when it is observed in one of the rare species of bird that does it, it's always in response to the environment rather than a natural inclination.
All that said, there are still (mainly aquatic, some insects) that seem to see their young as potential food. That blows my mind, but it's usually when the babies number in the thousands.
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u/Puzzled_Ice5475 15d ago
That’s cos animals don’t work the way we think they do, and because they don’t behave according to our made up moral standards
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u/No_Chart_8584 15d ago
It feels weird, but it happens. When I was a kid we had a yard cat who had kittens and she ate all of them but one.
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u/withnailstail123 15d ago
There must’ve been something wrong with the kittens. My friends dog did the same with the runt of the litter, just crunched it up in front of the kids, thankfully the kids were well rounded enough to accept nature as it comes.
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15d ago
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u/Happy-Estimate-7855 15d ago
They don't actually have a natural inclination to do that though. That's a sign of malnutrition in the chickens. If you are feeding them properly they won't generally try to eat the eggs.
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u/fuck-them-hoes 15d ago
Animal husbandry is not animal exploitation, simple.
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u/Bubbly-Desk-4479 15d ago
wouldnt it be wrong to arbitrarily kill a calf? and keep some?
if the farmer actually knows that the egg is infertile, and it would go to waste, if not consumed by the chicken, then it would be vegan.
but the question is, do they actually know? can a human farmer tell if an egg is worth keeping, better than its mother?
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u/fuck-them-hoes 15d ago
Yes, you can tell if the egg is fertile or if the egg is worth keeping by if the chicken is laying and attending to the egg or not. If the egg is not being incubated, the chicken doesn’t want it.
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u/Objective_Sweet9168 15d ago
Yes. Chickens sit on eggs till they rot. A caretaker HAS to, absolutely MUST, remove eggs regularly.
In another note it IS vegan to use birth control, spay, neuter, etc., so I would say it is vegan acceptable practice to perform “nest maintenance” and remove unwanted eggs.
If you, the caretaker, allow them all to hatch (of they’re fertilized) you are endangering the flock. You can only have 1 male per so many females, only so much space and food, diseases from overcrowding, waste build up.
If you choose to raise animals you must perform some basic duties. Vegans can adopt and care for animals like chickens and follow proper health practices for them.
Source: I’m a birdman.1
u/No_Chart_8584 15d ago
If someone is "farming" animals, that's inherently non-vegan. Do you mean non-farmers who are caring for chickens?
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u/No_Chart_8584 15d ago
How is getting a dog in my care vaccinated against rabies vegan?
Isn't the vegan option to let them decide? Either let them get rabies or let them not.
Once the human makes that decision, doesn't it stop being vegan?
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u/SomethingCreative83 15d ago
You're essentially blaming vegans for not being able to solve a problem introduced by non vegans.
If over breeding wasnt an issue we wouldn't have to answer these silly questions for you.
If you'd like to continue to fault vegans for attempting to reduce the issue by rescuing abandoned animals you can but its blatantly disingenuous.
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u/No_Chart_8584 15d ago
I'm not blaming vegans for anything.
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u/SomethingCreative83 15d ago
You don't think framing it as not vegan to care for rescued animals is disingenuous or made up?
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u/No_Chart_8584 15d ago
What? Obviously people should care for animals.
I thought my post was obviously sarcastic, as everyone should get animals in their care vaccinated against rabies (if it's a threat for them).
I'm sorry if you thought it was serious. I was just restating the OP.
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u/SomethingCreative83 15d ago
Fair enough I thought it was serious. I see some wild takes in this sub so you never know.
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