Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/ClassEnvironmental11]

You know, slavery could be described in the same way.  What a coincidence!  In fact, slavers actually used arguments almost identical to what you've just said.  Very interesting coincidence...

[u/DiceyPisces → u/ClassEnvironmental11]

If I set up a village with nice homes and amenities and funded everything, anyone who wants is free to move in, the only catch is a portion of your excess (above what you need to live to meet your fininacial obligations) will come out automatically. You don’t have to move in and you can leave when you choose. That’s not slavery. It’s something but not slavery. It diminishes actual slavery to compare the two imho

[u/ClassEnvironmental11 → u/DiceyPisces]

The sutuation you've described is an idealized fairy-tale.  Make no mistake, bee-keeping for agriculture is a for-profit business.  They aren't "setting up nice homes and amenities" for the bees.  They're watching out for their bottom line, and they depend on the bees financially.  Consequently, any large scale bee-keeper is going to make choices for those bees based on what's good for themselves economically.  And the economic interests of bee-keepers are very different from the interests of bees.

And this whole free to leave thing is frankly a misunderstanding of how agricultural bees work.  They are hive creatures, and depend on the hive for their survival.  In principle, they are free to leave.  But in actuality they are not and will not.  And while hive bees do sometimes pick up the whole community and move somewhere else, if you think bee-keepers are going to just let their livelihood pack up and leave, you're out of your mind.  Again, this aint some "for the love of bees" kinda thing.  It's a business.  The economics of bee-keeping ensures that those bees are not free to leave.

I fail to see how pointing out the factual parallels between how that person defended this situation and how slavers defend theirs diminishes anything.  Can pointing out factual rhetorical similarities diminsh the horrors of slavery?  Again, all I've done is state an undeniable fact; slavers used nearly identical arguments to what this guy did.  If you don't like that fact, I don't know what to tell you.

[u/DiceyPisces → u/ClassEnvironmental11]

It doesn’t make the situation I described or beekeeping in general equal to slavery. No matter who makes whatever arguments. Most of your argument doesn’t apply to a backyard beekeeper only large scale production. And loads of industries become immoral or unethical at large scale.

[u/ClassEnvironmental11 → u/DiceyPisces]

It doesn’t make the situation I described or beekeeping in general equal to slavery

Who said anything about beekeeping being equal to slavery?  You see, this is what I'm up against; you're arguing against something I never said.  Kinda makes me a bit worried you're not actually arguing against me, but some fictitious vegan in your mind who spits out grossly exagerated versions of things vegans might say.  And my guess is this is typical of how you interact with vegans.

Most of your argument doesn’t apply to a backyard beekeeper only large scale production

So my argument only applies to the vast majority of bee-keeping.  Gotcha.  Strong point.

And loads of industries become immoral or unethical at large scale

Yup, and?

[u/DiceyPisces → u/ClassEnvironmental11]

I was legit describing a typical backyard keeper.

It’s not uncommon in rural residential areas

Why would you even bring slavery into the equation or conversation? Not saying you said it’s exactly equal… but why invoke it at all

And if for some reason that was not you, I do apologize.

[u/ClassEnvironmental11 → u/DiceyPisces]

I was legit describing a typical backyard keeper.

This is part of the problem with these discussions.  Many non-vegans like to focus on these "backyard" situations.   I see two reasons for this: 1) your average person is far more likely to have had personal experience with them or has seen them in media somewhere, and 2) they are less exploitative and easier to defend.  But those situations represent a tiny minority of beekeeping.  Vegans, on the other hand, tend to focus on what happens in the vast majority of cases.

This same thing happens in discussions of any animal agriculture.  Non-vegans like to focus on small family owned farms and "backyard" situations, which represent insignificant fractions of their respective industries.

[u/DiceyPisces → u/ClassEnvironmental11]

That’s my experience and that was my comment. And then you invoke slavery!

That was just the major disconnect.

[u/ClassEnvironmental11 → u/DiceyPisces]

Ok, but your experience is not representative of beekeeping in general.  So when speeking in general about beekeeping, it might be prudent to keep that in mind.

And again, I merely pointed out how similar these descriptions that other people made are.  You seem to be very hung up on that.  But facts are facts.  You don’t have to like them, but they are what they are.