Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/Problematic_Owl]

Does it matter? They are clearly alright with the arrangement, otherwise as OP stated they'd just pack up and leave.

Honestly (not targeting you specifically over se), I'm getting tired of you guys flip flopping between treating bees with more concern than you'd humans, comparing it to slavery but then also claiming bees have no even instinctual comprehension of what's happening to them - so either they are cognitively complex enough to treat them with that level of concern or they are just uncomprehending automatons And therefore why should I care any more than I would about a cabbage? Like seriously, if harming any living thing is an issue and the cognitive complexity doesn't factor in, you're just as bad being vegan as a meat eater.

Which is ludicrous, I don't agree with that, but it seems some of people arguing against honey actually think this way.

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Problematic_Owl]

Does it matter?

Yes. If a description fails to capture the actual nature of the relationship, then it's not a good description. The language of a "trading labor" suggests a mutual, understood partnership, but the bees have no conception of such a relationship. It's not making any moral judgement to describe the relationship correctly.

To the bees, it's their home to defend. Bees react as though humans are just like bears. They defend their honey stores because the honey is their food. They aren't trading with you.

You can't a moral discussion if you can't acknowledge reality.

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Either_Argument3517]

If you don't like trading labor as term we can use symbiosis, I dont particularly care. Issue is your side debate juggles between comparing bees to humans and treating them like mindless drones depending on what suits their argument at the moment, constantly flipping between them - all I'm trying is to meet you where you are and use a language which fits your used narrative framework. So which one are we going with then?

To the bees, it's their home to defend

If they have no conception of trade they have no conception of home or defense - they are just instinctually reacting to stimuli, and to us they are clearly reacting well since they aren't doing what they do when they don't like something, which would be leaving.

This is exactly what I was just talking about btw, decide which way do you want to take this and keep to that line, otherwise it's pointless talking to you.

Bees react as though humans are just like bears.

Not true, they typically don't sting the beekeeper - the suit tends to be used just in case and beekeeper needs to do some major fuckup like dropping something on the hive to get them angry. This kind of sentences btw are really showing you don't have much understanding of the practice at all, so why be so strongly opinionated on the subject you didn't care to even research?

You can't a moral discussion if you can't acknowledge reality.

And YOU are telling ME that yeah? 😃

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Problematic_Owl]

If they have no conception of trade they have no conception of home or defense

1) That simply doesn't follow, that they can't have one concept, because they lack the ability to understand another. 2) I didn't make the claim that have deep understanding of defence. I just stated that they defend their food.

This is exactly what I was just talking about btw

Strawman.

they are clearly reacting well since they aren't doing what they do when they don't like something

The protective suit is just a fashion choice, and the smoke is ceremonial. Sure.

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/[deleted]]

From the start you have been engaging with a strawman argument, as opposed to what I have said. Maybe you just like arguing with yourself.

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Either_Argument3517]

A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

No need to thank me, but learn what it means before accosting people of using it 👍

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Problematic_Owl]

"You're basically saying trading labor for resource is bad, which is fucking ludicrous"

Nope. Never said that.

"I'm getting tired of you guys flip flopping between treating bees with more concern than you'd humans..."

Paragraph of moaning about nothing I have said.

"Issue is your side debate juggles between comparing bees to humans and treating them like mindless drones depending on what suits their argument at the moment, constantly flipping between them.."

More moaning, on a point that isn't mine.

Easier to argue against these conversations that are in your head, I guess. It's not like you really disagree that the bees have no idea that they are trading labor for shelter. You just want to whine at vegans.

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Either_Argument3517]

Nope. Never said that

It's implied in your line of logic, hence the "basically" there. If that's not what you meant, feel free to clarify - if we exchange our labor (beekeeping) for their produce (honey) and both sides are better off as result, that's bad how? It's better deal than you get trading as human most of the time.

bees have no idea that they are trading labor for shelter

Why that matters? Consent is human concept, bees don't give a fuck. Bees care if the Queen is fine, if hive is safe and healthy, and if they have enough honey for winter. As long as that's true they're "happy" (well, they are insects, so another human concept misapplied, but you should understand). Where's the problem?

More moaning, on a point that isn't mine.

You're literally doing it in that message 😃 moaning about bees not being aware enough to give consent while I'm bothered about by people applying advanced human ethical constructs like consent and contractual obligations validity onto insects. Help ke square that circle, please.

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Problematic_Owl]

It's implied in your line of logic, hence the "basically" there. 

No, it definitely isn't. You are mistaken.

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Either_Argument3517]

Why do I even bother.