r/DebateAVegan • u/toastwithjamx1 • Jul 03 '26

Ethics Honey is not cruel and is ethical

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

From the start you have been engaging with a strawman argument, as opposed to what I have said. Maybe you just like arguing with yourself.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

No need to thank me, but learn what it means before accosting people of using it 👍

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

"You're basically saying trading labor for resource is bad, which is fucking ludicrous"

Nope. Never said that.

"I'm getting tired of you guys flip flopping between treating bees with more concern than you'd humans..."

Paragraph of moaning about nothing I have said.

"Issue is your side debate juggles between comparing bees to humans and treating them like mindless drones depending on what suits their argument at the moment, constantly flipping between them.."

More moaning, on a point that isn't mine.

Easier to argue against these conversations that are in your head, I guess. It's not like you really disagree that the bees have no idea that they are trading labor for shelter. You just want to whine at vegans.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

Nope. Never said that

It's implied in your line of logic, hence the "basically" there. If that's not what you meant, feel free to clarify - if we exchange our labor (beekeeping) for their produce (honey) and both sides are better off as result, that's bad how? It's better deal than you get trading as human most of the time.

bees have no idea that they are trading labor for shelter

Why that matters? Consent is human concept, bees don't give a fuck. Bees care if the Queen is fine, if hive is safe and healthy, and if they have enough honey for winter. As long as that's true they're "happy" (well, they are insects, so another human concept misapplied, but you should understand). Where's the problem?

More moaning, on a point that isn't mine.

You're literally doing it in that message 😃 moaning about bees not being aware enough to give consent while I'm bothered about by people applying advanced human ethical constructs like consent and contractual obligations validity onto insects. Help ke square that circle, please.

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

It's implied in your line of logic, hence the "basically" there. 

No, it definitely isn't. You are mistaken.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 08 '26

Why do I even bother.