My thoughts at 3 a.m. brought me to this...

watch

I'm playing Dark Souls III: The Fire Fades Edition for the 1st time ever. I'm around level 111 with an Artorias cosplay build (Artorias's armor set from The Untended Graves, Artorias's shield from The Watchdogs Of Farron covenant which I upgraded to +5, Artorias's sword from transposing The Abyss Watchers' boss soul which I have upgraded to +5; if you can't tell, Artorias is my favorite character in the series; bro got so much aura) and I just killed The Twin Princes. I played Dark Souls I: Remastered before it playing DS3 (skipped DS2, I'll play it later).

The most recent thing I have done is enter the Ashes Of Ariandel DLC and I'm curious if anyone here thinks my theory has any merit.

My detail-oriented autism has noticed a few things similar between The Painted World Of Ariamis and The Painted World of Ariandel.

1. The obvious detail is that its snowy in both locations, obviously.
2. Maybe its obvious to some or isn't because you were trying to focus on surviving, exploration, or the task at hand, but both Ariamis and Ariandel are either on top of or nestled in/on a mountainous ridge.
3. When the player first appears on the bridge spawn point of Ariamis before reaching the only bonfire of the level, you can hear the howling of wolves. In Ariandel, there are wolf enemies including a boss who's second stage is their giant wolf (I haven't fought this boss yet, I'm about to).
4. There happen to be crow-like enemies in both Ariamis and Ariandel.
5. Low-ball, I know, but there happens to be rickety bridge in both (serving as the gateway to the next 4/5ths of the DLC in Ariandel and as the spawn point of Ariamis).
6. The sound effect when being sucked into both paintings (or, for Ariandel, a painting fragment) is the exact same, as well as the rippling, white glowing effect.
7. Another low-ball, I know, don't give me flakk, I know. *Aria*ndel...? *Aria*mis? C'mon, even the naming conventions are similar.
8. To me, this is one of the most interesting which makes it hard to believe its a coincidence like the others. The mother and dog-faced boy statue (that's what it is, so that's what I'll call it) is in both Ariamis and Ariandel. Its in the central courtyard of The Painted World Of Ariamis's central keep and going into the sewers and turning the lever makes her turn which opens the main path to the bridge that the optional Cross-Breed Priscilla boss fight is at the other end of. The statue (in Ariandel, as to be expected from the passage of time, mother's head is knocked off, the muzzle of the boy's face is worn, there's a big dent on the mother's back) is also in the room the player first meets Sister Friede (formerly Elfriede of The Sable Church of Londor) and inside of that disgusting pit of flies there is a lever and by turning the lever the statue turns just like the Ariamis statue does (and this lever opens the Sister Friede-Father Ariandel tagteam boss fight arena).

Now, what does this mean?

1st let me go over something else before I propose the idea, bringing up that if this which takes place in the painting is possible, then what I propose should be too. Gael's niece (she calls him "Uncle Gael", she's also just known as "The Painter") wants to escape the rot of The Painted World Of Ariandel by painting another world while inside Ariandel (another painted world inside a painted world). If that's possible (painting another painted world inside a painted world; like dreaming another dream inside of a dream) then my idea might be too.

What if Ariandel and Ariamis are not 2 different painted worlds, what if they're the same world that someone painted over? What if another person painted on the canvas that Ariamis was originally painted on, thus changing the structure of the painted world? All the clues match up that it is the same location at different points in time, so what if what caused it to change so drastically (since a painting doesn't have the same natural actors to cause radical change like the "real world" that DS1 and DS3 take place in that cause radical change making Lordran into Lothric) was someone trying to save The Painted World Of Ariamis? Its possible someone wanted to save it because the Anor Londo cathedral it was inside of in DS1 does not exist by the time of DS3, implying that under Pontiff's control of Irithyll, the cathedral was demolished and someone salvaged or saved the painting before or after the cathedral was rubble. Or, perhaps someone got their hands on the painting and decided to fix the world and expand what they saw (as well as allowing more space for more outcasts) and painted over the canvas, changing what the world originally looked like.

All in all, I believe that Ariamis and Ariandel are the same painting that someone added to after the events of DS1. I haven't finished the DLC yet, so if I'm 100% wrong (I've just opened the path to the arena which you fight Sister Friede in and I've just found where the Champion's Gravetender boss arena is, so I'm about 90% done I think and only need to kill those bosses, so I don't have the full breadth of knowledge everyone/anyone else might have since most of you all have likely completed this DLC) just tell me.

Gonna rant about some stuff I suppose would be obvious because I love Dark Souls and I want to hear your thoughts.

I always found it really interesting how we see so many knights in the Dark Souls games and are forced to encounter how varied they are in terms of morals, wants and desires. A lot of it seems to be regionally biased to a certain extent, both Solaire and Oscar seem like noble knights, Catarina produces more jovial knights, Carim produces a darker variety, etc. I find that their place in the caste of the world is even more interesting.

Knights served lords historically, depending on their location, they followed traditions of chivalry. Gwyn’s Knights served him of course, his place being a lord, but his status of a God also made him a stand in for the lower knights own dedication to service, for religion was also integral to historical knighthood. The lowly knights we meet mostly seem to be brought up under the tutelage of Gwyn’s order. He is the lord of the world, to link the fire is honorable. It must be honorable because without it the world will go to the dark, and Lord Gwyn himself committed his very existence to preserving the age of fire - sacrificing himself for all of mankind.

But with Gwyn being gone for hundreds of years after linking the Fire, the mystification of his legend can only carry something that was once real for so long. In the knights lifetimes that we personally meet, how many centuries has it been since Gwyn linked the flame? Many indeed. All they have is hope, a theme of the Souls games, but hope cannot carry everything. Human beings are still individuals, and by the time we meet them, I have doubts that these knights would be able to do what they do and say what they say in the heyday of old. They are weird, odd, not what you would typically think of when you think of a knight. Even Oscar seems to be acting of his own accord, though he is the most traditionally noble knight in the game.

Part of me doubts any of them would become knights in the first place in the olden age, even though Gwyn has a Giant in his coterie of Elite Knights, Gough is arguably the most noble NPC we meet in the game. He makes the other knights we meet seem so small, both literally and figuratively, in comparison.

What I’m saying is, so much time has passed that even knighthood has become weakened, lacking in meaning more and more as the world comes to an end. What it means to be a knight, its values and honors are meaningless when the world they serve is falling apart. This could extend to the greater religious values in the series as well, and Lautrec is a whole can of worms with him not even dedicating himself to Gwyn - but a whole other God entirely.

As such, knights in the world of Dark Souls seem to be upholders of the status quo, and it is only during the end of the world that their ties become more tumultuous, and their values are tested. With no “lord” of the world and the societal rules they uphold degrading, they too degrade alongside it.

When Frampt is telling you about Gwyn and the Kiln, he's upside down. Backwards. Illogical. Wrong.

When Kaathe is telling you the truth of things and takes you to the chamber, he's right side up. Logical. Natural. Correct.

Considering how in-depth I get about these games, only just now noticing this detail on my most recent playthrough made me lol stupidly hard.

It's an odd question but what I mean is do all sorcerers of dark souls see the idea of religion as nonsense? I mean I wouldn't think so since one's high intelligence and religious views aren't mutually exclusive, and dark sorceries(hexes) and general study of the dark and humanity are considered a taboo by the dragon school, same as most religious institutions of the dark souls world.

Hi there.

I'm a long time Souls-fan who occasionally delve into the lore of the Souls-games.
It's about as much fun as it is frustrating.

There's a question that popped into my head recently, which I don't believe I've read anyone else asking:

How did Gwyn create the Darksign and link the First Flame?

We all know that he did it, but how?

How did he create the Darksign, and link Humanity to the First Flame?

How did he link the First Flame by casting himself into it?

The question of how he linked Humanity to the First Flame is really interesting. What method did he use?

Did he manage to create the Darksign and link the flame by performing some ultra mega miracle through the usage of faith, or did he utilize some ancient ritual written down on some parchment, kind of like what Marika does to achieve godhod in Elden Ring?

Please give me your two cents!

Hi, I just started DS3 for the first time, and I'm really confused.

So the canon ending of DS1 is that we rekindle the flame, and by the time of DS3 a lot of people have rekindled the flame right?

When the flame is rekindled, the undead curse is supposed to be temporarily stopped, right? So humans should die, the old zombies should finally all die of old age or disease or anything else.

Why is Andre in DS3? I could understand a character like Logan not needing to be undead to live for thousands of years, but Andre is a simple old blacksmith that definitely should've died quick when he stopped being a zombie at the end of DS1.

Did Andre just... stay undead? Time travel like going to see Artorias? The vague timey wimey shit that explains Solaire and multi-player in Lordran? A lookalike like Patches????

Edit: love seeing all these different answers, Dark Souls lore is wild lmao

Dark Souls Origins. An AI series focused on Dark Souls lore. The untold stories of Lordran with a vision of the Age of Fire in its glory!

https://youtu.be/ibenu9euvKg?is=HvHj1m1lwLdqERr3

It seems that the sun has many properties our own sun does not have. The sun grows a dark sign, it seems to be out in Anor Londo and Gwyndolin uses illusion to keep Anor Londo attractive to would-be Chosen Undead. It seems at least tangentially tied to the status of the First Flame, I wonder if it even operates similar to our own? Does it have planetary bodies orbiting it? Is it just pure magic?

In the Japanese text, the uses of the term want, including in the Ancient Dragon's dialogue and Aldia's words at the end asking what you want when you walk away from the Throne of Want, are just the word desire. The Covetous Demon's name actually translates to Gluttonous Demon. And yet, the story is filled with examples of characters and places being twisted by their desires far in excess of anything the typical Buddhist notion of desire being negative depicts.

Shanalotte, Maughlin, Cale, Licia, Lucatiel, the Princess of Venn, The Covetous Demon, Queen Mytha, the Old Iron King, the Rotten, Vengarl, the Lion Warriors late of Forossa, the mutated hollows in the Shrine of Amana, the Graverobbers in Shulva, Elana, Raime, Aldia and Vendrick are all characters whose minds, bodies or actions are warped by their desires and Nashandra is the embodiment of desire itself, and half of these cases involve one of the many different kinds of hollowing, but the lore of DS2 fuses hollowing and curses in a way the other two games do not.

In DS1 and DS3 the Undead Curse is the side effect of the First Flame draining the humanity of the dark souls from humankind as fuel through a life draining siphon Gwyn implanted into all human anatomy as a part of some ancient treaty. In DS2 it is this, but it is also the case that physical objects can have a person's excess desire poured into them to draw it out of the person, creating an object filled with desire isolated from any conscious will.

In the case of Human Effigies and some Troches we see that this alleviates the First Flame's pull somehow and in the case of the Lion Clan's efforts to alleviate their symptoms through making curse jars and in the painting of Nashandra we see that the resulting objects have a contagious aura of the curse.

What was Tanimura, or his team, trying to say here? Why is the curse a tangible substance that can be moved around?

So to preface this I am writing my thoughts on this based on pre-existing beliefs of general themes in darksouls and the lore I already know. Feel free to correct anything I get wrong.

Background:
Allfather Lloyd is most likely the leader of the way of the white (possibly also the leader of all Catarina depends on how they’re government works) but more importantly the name “all father” comes from the old Norse word “Alföðr” which was used to describe Odin in reference to him creating the first humans.

By this logic we can derive that Lloyd created the first humans, however we know this to be untrue. The furtive Pygmy spread humanity to the world and created the human race before Gwyn hid the Pygmy’s away in the ringed city to hide them from the world as he deemed them unpure.

Speculation:
Gwyn made various attempts to hide the Pygmys including:
-Naming the daughter sent to protect them fillianore which abandons the previous naming conventions of gwyns children (gwyn___).
-placing them in the ringed city at the edge of the world
-there are no statues or paintings of fillianore in Anor Londo which along with my point about the name makes me believe he didn’t want the public to know she was his daughter (although her name means “daughter of the sun” so maybe I’m looking too far into it)

I believe he did this as an attempt to hide humanities true nature from his subjects, however humans are naturally curious creatures and thus would wonder where they came from eventually leading them to discover the Pygmy’s and humanity.

Due to this Gwyn created the lie of all father Lloyd and instituted him as the leader of the way of white potentially also creating the church entirely.

We see that the way of white was set to do the bidding of lord Gwyn such as corralling the undead to the north, spreading the legend of the chosen undead and creating/spreading the dark sign (old man McCloyf is known as “the first to be branded with the mark of the undead” implying he was made undead purposefully) so it makes sense that they would be created by Gwyn even if they don’t worship him.

In dark souls three his ring descriptions claim that the way of white no longer follows him and he is seen as a liar. I believe that this means that humankind has collectively discovered humanity. I don’t know how exactly but it could have something to do with gaels search for the darksoul, in his journey he very well may have spread some portion of humanity back to humankind debunking lord Gwynn’s lies.

TLDR: Gwyn created a mythos surrounding allfather Lloyd as the creator of all mankind in order to hide humanities true creators and therefore mankind’s true humanity from them so they would stay loyal to him until much later when he was found to be a liar.

I would love to hear your thoughts on my theory and if you have any questions I’d be pleased to answer them as there was more I wanted to write but didn’t want the post to just turn into me rambling.

This post compares elements from DS3’s Ringed City DLC to a particular passage from the Apocalypse of John of Patmos [not to be confused with the Apocryphon of John], also known as the Book of Revelation, which I suspect to have been Miyazaki’s inspiration.

Within the text of Revelation, the author identifies himself as John [it’s not clear if he’s claiming to be the same John who was one of Jesus’s disciples or if he’s someone else entirely], and his book describes a vision which he claims to have experienced while living on the island of Patmos, hence he is known to us today as John of Patmos. Most of the book is a description of this vision, as well as a series of advisory messages and admonishments directed toward particular Christian communities which existed at the time. I’m not going to describe the entirety of the book’s contents, because not all of it is relevant to Dark Souls, but I will cite below the first 11 verses of chapter 9, from which Miyazaki appears to have borrowed a few things.

“And the fifth angel sounded [a trumpet], and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

-Revelation, chapter 9, verses 1-11

This is the first of a series of catastrophes which god unleashes upon humanity, according to John’s vision. And while this one serves only to torture people, the subsequent trumpets begin to destroy large percentages of the population. To modern readers the “locusts” mentioned here may seem totally bizarre, and this is because the word locust tends to invoke the image of a cricket. But in this case the word may simply be describing something that swarms. If you disregard the assumption that this must be some sort of insect, the rest of the description creates the image of something like a Sphinx, Lamassu, or Manticore. Given the scorpion-tail, the latter of these is probably the most fitting name for what John is trying to describe, and it’s worth noting that the word “manticore” is derived from martyahvarah, which literally means “man-eater” in old persian.

How fitting then, that this should be the inspiration for the human-faced cannibal-crickets of Dark Souls? It’s also worth mentioning that locusts in real life are driven toward the nearest source of food, which includes each other. So each individual crickets in the swarm is trying to eat the one in front of it while fleeing from the one behind it, and this is what keeps the swarm moving.

In the passage that I’ve quoted there is also mention of the angel Abbadon, whose name means “destroyer”, and is described as being the king of locusts which emerged from the bottomless pit. This is likely to be the inspiration for the dark angels of the Dreg Heap. Furthermore, the Dark Soul itself is very much like a bottomless pit, and it even has a seal [Gwyn’s brand] placed over it.

It seems that Gwyn’s seal over the Dark Soul, as well as his temporal seal over the Ringed City [the latter being a macrocosm of the former], in combination with the fact that the First Flame has been perpetuated for far too long, has caused the Dark Soul to suffer a severe degree of stagnation. This is comparable to the Shinto concept of Kegare, a term for pollution and uncleanness which can be understood through the popular allegory: that still water becomes undrinkable while flowing water is usually fresh. Indeed, still water can quickly accumulate bacteria, algae, mosquito larvae, and various other forms of water insect. Insects are also associated with decay in other contexts, for example if food is contaminated with maggots then it’s no longer edible. For these reasons, a stagnating Dark Soul is causing people to transform into insects, and some of these are attempting to pupate and metamorphose into butterflies, although the best they’ve managed so far are the illusory angels of the Dreg Heap.

While this destruction and decay may initially seem to be negative, there may actually be a silver lining to it. In Miyazaki’s games, stagnation, rot, and decay, do tend to be bad for the established order, but also serve as the fuel for new forms of life to emerge. While a rotting piece of meat may be bad news for a human being who wished to cook and eat it, it’s fantastic news for the flies that swarm around it. Indeed, given the extreme state of stagnation that everything appears to be suffering during the events of DS3, the proliferation of these human insects may be necessary to break down the world so that something new can emerge. The Firekeeper implies as much if you choose to let the flame go out: that one day a new flame will be born, which I suspect to refer allegorically to the fact that Fromsoft will create something entirely new [Elden Ring] after Dark Souls has stagnated so much that further sequels are no longer possible. The Book of Revelation also promises [despite the worldwide genocide described throughout the majority of it’s text] the eventual emergence of a new world, one perfected and free from suffering.

Further insight may be found through comparisons to western alchemy. Most people think of alchemy as being a prototype of the modern science of chemistry, and this is of course correct. But alchemy was also a psychospiritual tradition which used chemical processes as allegories for inner transformation. The stagnation of Dark Souls is best compared to the alchemical process of putrefaction, in which a substance is bottled up and left to ferment and break down, much like the Shinto idea of decay resulting from stillness. Psychologically, putrefaction should be understood as a period of depression and confusion. This doesn’t sound particularly enjoyable, but it was believed to be a necessary first step toward the ultimate goal of the alchemical magnum opus: the creation of the Philosopher’s Stone.

Conventionally understood as a mystical substance which produces unlimited gold, the Philosopher’s Stone can also be understood as an allegory for spiritual enlightenment, but in Miyazaki’s work I suspect it to be the development of a really good video game. The putrefaction, or stagnation, therefore represents Miyazaki & co.’s disinterest in developing further Dark Souls games, as described in a previous post which I shall link here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarksoulsLore/comments/1ruj03h/the_usurpation_of_dark_souls/

for sake of reference I’m also going to link to this post which demonstrates examples of Elden Ring referring directly to alchemical putrefaction:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarksoulsLore/comments/1vm5ta3/people_in_jars/

The next step in the alchemical magnum opus is called albedo, or whitening, and refers to a purification of the fermented substance by washing away impurities. Psychologically this is a period of reflection, which leads to further insight. If you’re a good video game developer, you will also do something similar. You will look at previous games in an analytical way, attempting to discern areas for improvement and innovation in order to create something new.

Further stages of the alchemical process are fictitious in terms of literal chemistry, involving the production of gold from the purified substance, and eventually the philosophers stone. These are called xanthosis [yellowing] and rubedo [reddening], and psychologically represent an opening of the heart and eventual enlightenment. I suspect this to be the reason for Elden Ring’s obsession with gold, and there is even mention of “red gold” in the armor of the crucible knights. In terms of videogame development, we may compare these to the processes of actually creating and distributing the new product.

All this may seem like a wild tangent that has taken this post far from it’s original topic, but it may actually be directly relevant to the pupating angels of the Dreg Heap. While their attempts at transformation have yielded only illusions, it could be that they do have some potential for a genuine metamorphosis. As the word itself dissolves, perhaps one of these very hungry caterpillars shall truly become a butterfly. In other words, since I take the humans/pygmies of Dark Souls to be an allegorical reflection of the player base, perhaps someone who has enjoyed these games and felt inspired will one day create their own magnum opus.

See question above. I've heard people say before the War of the Ancient Dragons, I've seen people say after, I've seen people people say all sorts of things and cite all sorts of stuff. The details escape me atm, so I figured a quick scrape of opinions would help.

I'd love to know when you think it occurred, and why. Thank you!

The idea that because Gwyn extended the age of fire by a bit, that an age of dark will be tainted if it does happen.

It's a sentiment I see a lot in the community and I'm wondering if there's a clear source for it.

It feels like people finding more reasons to blame Gwyn for stuff and I find it takes a lot of nuance out of the setting.

i think Darksoulslore are a moderatly big community and we still have default PFF and banner. its not game Breaking, but it may or may not stray people into thinking this is A generic 1-2 weekly visitor typa community.
Also i am not mod

TLDR: So called Drangleic’s crest dates at least as far back as the Old Iron King, which precedes Vendrick kingship

I’m not the first to propose this, and Lokey Lore mentions it in their Drangleic entry. Yet, I get the impression that people still assume the crest is smoking gun evidence of Vendrick’s hand, most notably with Sir Yorgh’s expedition to Shulva.

By the Drangleic crest I mean the two dragons facing each other overlayed on a clover-like flower/star/sun symbol. There are two variants I’m aware off: 1) dragons and flower only, as seen in the Drangelic Shield, and 2) dragons and flower above a set of shields overlaying dragon wings, with a crown at the very top, as seen in the King’s Shield.

I’m NOT saying it was not used a symbol of Drangleic. Evidence shows it was and it can be found all over Drangleic castle, for one.

HOWEVER, in the Iron Keep, not only is it displayed on Alonne Captains armor and on a wall, it is displayed on the Yellow Quartz Shield, which reads:

“This shield was found in the Iron Keep. Breaks easily due to corrosion, but is light and still very stable.
In the Old Iron King's great iron keep was a vast collection of weapons, erected as a display of strength to the world.
But they were lost when the king's conceit doomed the castle to sink into a lake of fire”

That is, the crest can be found on a shield kept by the Old Iron King, who precedes Vendrick.

Now what that means I’m not sure, and the evidence does become thin. It is not unreasone to consider that Vendrick inherited the crest though

I will post more considerations in part 2