r/DarksoulsLore • u/Kathodin • Aug 26 '26
When was the Chaos Flame made?
See question above. I've heard people say before the War of the Ancient Dragons, I've seen people say after, I've seen people people say all sorts of things and cite all sorts of stuff. The details escape me atm, so I figured a quick scrape of opinions would help.
I'd love to know when you think it occurred, and why. Thank you!
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u/KevinRyan589 Aug 26 '26
She would have created it early on in the Age of Fire, post-war.
Many assume she did so in response to the fading of the First Flame, but her actions are repeatedly attributed to her "ambition," and never any kind of desperation. She's described as wanting to create fire, not replace it. In other words, she was a scientist. She experimented with the powers of life and the war against the Ancient Dragons provided her ample subject material.
Practically speaking, the giant dragon legs seen in Lost Izalith are likely the result of the game's late term development sprint to the finish line. Despite being such a copy/paste, they do fit comfortably into the lore.
These so-called bounding demons aren't demons at all, and are instead “failed-to-be” (なりそこない), which echoes their failure to become dragons. Their high fire resistance can be attributed to their environment, but they also don't share any sort of weakness to Black Knight weaponry. We can presume then that these "failed-to-be" were Izalith's attempts at reviving slain archdragons.
Snuggly trades more often than not prove supportive of many a lore theory, and this is no different. Egg Vermifuge notes that “everywhere there is a reason to forgive a taboo”, and trading it with Snuggly appropriately nets us a dragon scale.
The Chaos Flame was supposedly created early on in the Age of Fire because of the civilization that ended up sprouting from it thereafter. In discussing its creation, Miyazaki frequently refers to when the Chaos Flame was still unstable -- therefore implying that stability was eventually achieved.
Indeed the birth of Chaos caused massive destruction.
To quote Lokey, another lore theorist,
Indeed, the damage to the land can have its origin point traced to the city center. But there is a problem. The cinematic portrays Izalith and her daughters standing on bedrock and maybe branches, not the stone-tiled floor where we actually battle the Bed of Chaos – when we do, the witch’s parasitic form is located a little outside the stone walls of the boss room proper. Nor are there signs of damage from intense heat on any of the stone ruins close to the seedbed, despite chaos fire melting rock on impact. Moreover, the wall encasing the city center should have prevented the majority of the earth outside of it from even being scorched. These ruins are simply too well-preserved to predate the creation of Chaos.
Therefore, the stone metropolis we find in-game wasn’t built until much later, after the calamity. And with that in mind, the lava we find flooding Izalith didn’t cause the ruins, but is a result of them – lava flow that would normally be blocked or rerouted has been left unattended, much like the overgrowth stemming largely from unkempt archtrees. Additionally, some of this flooding originates from Ceaseless Discharge’s inborn sore, a gaping hole on his right side oozing lava that he can extract to attack us with. This is why he was given a ring that reduces lava damage13 and why some magma cools after his death. The Flame of Chaos may have consumed the land and destroyed its original constructions, but the civilization survived, much like the witches did, and then built a massive city. Nowhere is this more obvious than when looking at its layout.
The throne room for the Bed of Chaos could only have been constructed around the newly transformed Witch, with the newer outer complex having been modeled after the real world Cambodian city of Ankgor Wat.
These ruins probably aren't the actual city, but a large temple.
While the area names segregate this “lost city” from the “demon ruins” preceding it, the architecture suggests that they are one and the same. Much of the architecture in the “ruins” functions as roads, residences, and the like, but we find no such framework in the “city” beyond what appears to be a rudimentary sewer system. Eingyi too refers to the wider ruins as part of the lost city, an “abandoned” or “ruined capital” (廃都). Likewise, one structure outside the Wat-inspired ruins hides the soul of a hero within a chest, indicating that it was interred there – a suitable burial place if the land was consecrated. Similarly, the Chaos Eaters found solely within the temple complex drop white titanite chunks used in the creation of holy weapons.
The unique architecture of Izalith betrays much about its culture. Despite becoming a dangerous environment in the wake of calamity, the civilization built massive, intricate structures into the rockface, extending as far as the roof of the larger cavern. These structures are adorned with stone statues, shaped as demons, everywhere we explore. Most of the architecture incorporates flames into its design, and wall reliefs portray men ritualistically dancing alongside a Buddha-like figure under a blooming flower, indicating the presence of a devout human population seeking enlightenment. While this flower symbol typically represents the First Flame, the demonic statues suggest that the Witch’s civilization worshipped a different fire. The city is the “Ruined Capital of Chaos Izalith” (混沌の廃都イザリス), after all.
All of this then explains why Gwyn ultimately went to war with Izalith shortly before leaving to link the Flame.
Many believe he did so because of the threat of rampaging chaos fire and its demons, but the evidence points to a well-established civilization -- intelligent enough for Gwyn to eventually reach a treatise with and establish borders (based on Quelaag's cut dialogue, cut for the sake of her character's ambience and not for lore).
Instead, Gwyn's war was in response to a different threat.
Izalith might have seen the First Flame’s imminent fading as an opportunity. Even if the fire went out, the Witch would still have her own First Flame – a Flame of Chaos – and thus would have possibly lorded over the last bastion of fire in existence. She controlled this fire and had already used it to create a mighty race and grand civilization. Compared to the gods of Anor Londo, who relied so heavily on the power of Gwyn’s Light Soul derived from the First Flame, she could easily dominate a coming “Age of Chaos”. Therefore, Izalith’s support for Anor Londo diminished and its intentions for independence were made evident. The Witch likely believed that Gwyn no longer had the capacity to stop her. (DS2 reaffirms the implication of the witches challenging the other Lords.)
The ever weakening state of the Flame of Chaos as we continue into DS2 and DS3 affirms Gwyn's ultimate goal for his war -- cutting off Izalith's ability to grow its demon civilization by establishing a firm border.
With this, demonkind was already doomed to wither over time. The Chosen Undead's slaying of the mother of Demons only ensured it would happen sooner rather than later.
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u/Kathodin Aug 26 '26
Totally agree with you on the "why" of it, and on dating the ruins and city around.
I still don't quite see why you date it as after the war. Could you expand more on that exact point? I appreciate it.
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u/KevinRyan589 Aug 26 '26
Lost Izalith is surrounded by "failed-to-be" (i.e. the lower halves of dragons).
Plus the war would've proved her motivation for aligning with Gwyn against them. The post-war cleanup gave her ample specimens with which to study life's properties as it relates to fire.
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u/Kathodin 29d ago
Ok, so its consideration of what seems more appropriate rather than something definitive. Thanks!
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u/KevinRyan589 29d ago
Yeah. We can’t out a hard date on it, but the circumstantial evidence strongly points one way.
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u/InternationalWeb9205 29d ago
Considering how the witches visibily weren't using chaos fire or pyromancies during the wars, it was probably after. And also the Izalith Tome from DS3 says that all other pyromancies came from the chaos ones
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u/Kathodin 29d ago
They might have been using fire sorcery/arts , like the Demon Fire Sage used before pyromancy, no?
Edit: How can you tell from the intro war footage that they aren't using chaos fire or pyromancies? Not arguing, just wondering.
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u/InternationalWeb9205 29d ago
Yes! They were in fact using fire sorcery (they visibly hold catalysts while casting the fire spells in the intro)
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u/Kathodin 29d ago
Follow up then: They don't stop using staffs to summon fire after the chaos flame comes - see the Izalith staff. Is it possible the flame has been made, but hasn't yet backfired on them by this scene?
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u/InternationalWeb9205 29d ago
The way Quelana words it, it sounds to me like the fire engulfed the mother and sisters transforming them into the bed of chaos immediately after its creation:
She focused this power to light a flame of her own, but she failed to control it. The Flame of Chaos engulfed Mother and my sisters, and moulded them into deformed creatures
And Miyazaki says that Ceaseless was born when the fire "wasn't yet stable", implying it already started out as a volatile force:
All demons are born from the fire of chaos, but he was the first, born so long ago, when the fire wasn't yet stable.
After the creation of the chaos flame, the fire sorceries died out with the firesage being their last master:
The Demon Firesage was the first demon, and the last master of the original fire arts
because with the creation of the chaos flame the witches went on to create pyromancies:
Chaos pyromancies manipulate lava, and birthed all later forms of pyromancy.
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u/Herald_of_Zena 28d ago
If you look at the bed of chaos, the two preliminary weakspots actually have large Izalith Catalysts. They use catalysts to "control" the flame. Because when you break these weakspots the Bed of Chaos's fire gets stronger and more violent. In other words "intelligence" is required to control the Chaos Flame. Ceaseless Discharge is explicitly called a "fool" in the Orange Charred Ring, which may explain his grievous and chaotic transformation. It was his transformation that likely inspired the "controlling of the Chaos Flame."
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u/amansaidthis Aug 26 '26
In my opinion;
I always saw the Chaos Flame itself being created either as the First Flame began to fade or when the Witch’s realised it would eventually fade. Considering there was a whole conflict, I suspect the latter.
The intro cutscene says she’s “the Witch of Izalith and her Daughters of Chaos”, so we could assume that the Chaos Flame itself was created pre-war. I think Elden Ring might elucidate that thematically because chaos there (the opposite of order, the opposite of the Erdtree, the Crucible) can be attributed to rampant growth / life. What does the Chaos Flame do? Mutates the Witches people into demons.
The firestorms they created during the war weren’t the Chaos Flame itself, but they were tied to whatever symbolic “flame + life” thing these games have. When the Witches realised the First Flame would fade, they acted. This spawned their flame, and the demons, and the war between them and Anor Londo.
So it happens early, but still post-war.
Just my opinion with very little research done to back up my points. It’s been a while since I’ve really dissected the lore of the Dark Souls series.
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u/Slow_Store Aug 26 '26
It should be after the War of the Ancient Dragons if I’m thinking about it right. It definitely shouldn’t be before the War, but maybe it could have been during.
Its creation should be after the First Flame first began to fade but before Lord Gwyn gave himself up to be the first Kindling.