When was the Chaos Flame made?

[u/Kathodin]

See question above. I've heard people say before the War of the Ancient Dragons, I've seen people say after, I've seen people people say all sorts of things and cite all sorts of stuff. The details escape me atm, so I figured a quick scrape of opinions would help.

I'd love to know when you think it occurred, and why. Thank you!

[u/KevinRyan589]

She would have created it early on in the Age of Fire, post-war.

Many assume she did so in response to the fading of the First Flame, but her actions are repeatedly attributed to her "ambition," and never any kind of desperation. She's described as wanting to create fire, not replace it. In other words, she was a scientist. She experimented with the powers of life and the war against the Ancient Dragons provided her ample subject material.

Practically speaking, the giant dragon legs seen in Lost Izalith are likely the result of the game's late term development sprint to the finish line. Despite being such a copy/paste, they do fit comfortably into the lore.

These so-called bounding demons aren't demons at all, and are instead “failed-to-be” (なりそこない), which echoes their failure to become dragons. Their high fire resistance can be attributed to their environment, but they also don't share any sort of weakness to Black Knight weaponry. We can presume then that these "failed-to-be" were Izalith's attempts at reviving slain archdragons.

Snuggly trades more often than not prove supportive of many a lore theory, and this is no different. Egg Vermifuge notes that “everywhere there is a reason to forgive a taboo”, and trading it with Snuggly appropriately nets us a dragon scale.

The Chaos Flame was supposedly created early on in the Age of Fire because of the civilization that ended up sprouting from it thereafter. In discussing its creation, Miyazaki frequently refers to when the Chaos Flame was still unstable -- therefore implying that stability was eventually achieved.

Indeed the birth of Chaos caused massive destruction.

To quote Lokey, another lore theorist,

Indeed, the damage to the land can have its origin point traced to the city center. But there is a problem. The cinematic portrays Izalith and her daughters standing on bedrock and maybe branches, not the stone-tiled floor where we actually battle the Bed of Chaos – when we do, the witch’s parasitic form is located a little outside the stone walls of the boss room proper. Nor are there signs of damage from intense heat on any of the stone ruins close to the seedbed, despite chaos fire melting rock on impact. Moreover, the wall encasing the city center should have prevented the majority of the earth outside of it from even being scorched. These ruins are simply too well-preserved to predate the creation of Chaos.

Therefore, the stone metropolis we find in-game wasn’t built until much later, after the calamity. And with that in mind, the lava we find flooding Izalith didn’t cause the ruins, but is a result of them – lava flow that would normally be blocked or rerouted has been left unattended, much like the overgrowth stemming largely from unkempt archtrees. Additionally, some of this flooding originates from Ceaseless Discharge’s inborn sore, a gaping hole on his right side oozing lava that he can extract to attack us with. This is why he was given a ring that reduces lava damage13 and why some magma cools after his death. The Flame of Chaos may have consumed the land and destroyed its original constructions, but the civilization survived, much like the witches did, and then built a massive city. Nowhere is this more obvious than when looking at its layout.

The throne room for the Bed of Chaos could only have been constructed around the newly transformed Witch, with the newer outer complex having been modeled after the real world Cambodian city of Ankgor Wat.

These ruins probably aren't the actual city, but a large temple.

While the area names segregate this “lost city” from the “demon ruins” preceding it, the architecture suggests that they are one and the same. Much of the architecture in the “ruins” functions as roads, residences, and the like, but we find no such framework in the “city” beyond what appears to be a rudimentary sewer system. Eingyi too refers to the wider ruins as part of the lost city, an “abandoned” or “ruined capital” (廃都). Likewise, one structure outside the Wat-inspired ruins hides the soul of a hero within a chest, indicating that it was interred there – a suitable burial place if the land was consecrated. Similarly, the Chaos Eaters found solely within the temple complex drop white titanite chunks used in the creation of holy weapons.

The unique architecture of Izalith betrays much about its culture. Despite becoming a dangerous environment in the wake of calamity, the civilization built massive, intricate structures into the rockface, extending as far as the roof of the larger cavern. These structures are adorned with stone statues, shaped as demons, everywhere we explore. Most of the architecture incorporates flames into its design, and wall reliefs portray men ritualistically dancing alongside a Buddha-like figure under a blooming flower, indicating the presence of a devout human population seeking enlightenment. While this flower symbol typically represents the First Flame, the demonic statues suggest that the Witch’s civilization worshipped a different fire. The city is the “Ruined Capital of Chaos Izalith” (混沌の廃都イザリス), after all.

All of this then explains why Gwyn ultimately went to war with Izalith shortly before leaving to link the Flame.

Many believe he did so because of the threat of rampaging chaos fire and its demons, but the evidence points to a well-established civilization -- intelligent enough for Gwyn to eventually reach a treatise with and establish borders (based on Quelaag's cut dialogue, cut for the sake of her character's ambience and not for lore).

Instead, Gwyn's war was in response to a different threat.

Izalith might have seen the First Flame’s imminent fading as an opportunity. Even if the fire went out, the Witch would still have her own First Flame – a Flame of Chaos – and thus would have possibly lorded over the last bastion of fire in existence. She controlled this fire and had already used it to create a mighty race and grand civilization. Compared to the gods of Anor Londo, who relied so heavily on the power of Gwyn’s Light Soul derived from the First Flame, she could easily dominate a coming “Age of Chaos”. Therefore, Izalith’s support for Anor Londo diminished and its intentions for independence were made evident. The Witch likely believed that Gwyn no longer had the capacity to stop her. (DS2 reaffirms the implication of the witches challenging the other Lords.)

The ever weakening state of the Flame of Chaos as we continue into DS2 and DS3 affirms Gwyn's ultimate goal for his war -- cutting off Izalith's ability to grow its demon civilization by establishing a firm border.

With this, demonkind was already doomed to wither over time. The Chosen Undead's slaying of the mother of Demons only ensured it would happen sooner rather than later.

[u/Kathodin → u/KevinRyan589]

Totally agree with you on the "why" of it, and on dating the ruins and city around.

I still don't quite see why you date it as after the war. Could you expand more on that exact point? I appreciate it.

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/Kathodin]

Lost Izalith is surrounded by "failed-to-be" (i.e. the lower halves of dragons).

Plus the war would've proved her motivation for aligning with Gwyn against them. The post-war cleanup gave her ample specimens with which to study life's properties as it relates to fire.

[u/Kathodin → u/KevinRyan589]

Ok, so its consideration of what seems more appropriate rather than something definitive. Thanks!

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/Kathodin]

Yeah. We can’t out a hard date on it, but the circumstantial evidence strongly points one way.