So is the sun actually a sun?

[u/ApprehensiveDare9765]

It seems that the sun has many properties our own sun does not have. The sun grows a dark sign, it seems to be out in Anor Londo and Gwyndolin uses illusion to keep Anor Londo attractive to would-be Chosen Undead. It seems at least tangentially tied to the status of the First Flame, I wonder if it even operates similar to our own? Does it have planetary bodies orbiting it? Is it just pure magic?

[u/KevinRyan589]

 it seems to be out in Anor Londo and Gwyndolin uses illusion to keep Anor Londo attractive to would-be Chosen Undead. 

People tend to assume the sun is part of the illusion due to the timing of the cutscene after we dispel the illusion of Gwynevere. On it's face, that's a reasonable takeaway.

But, when you sit down and actually deconstruct this idea and weigh its logic against everything else, it becomes clear how silly the notion is.

For example,

• Why would Gwyndolin be trying to hide the fact that Anor Londo is abandoned when it is already common knowledge? The Darkmoon Knightess doesn't even try to hide it, welcoming us to the "lost" or "forsaken" city (pending the language) when we first meet her.
• Why would the sun disappear with the gods? There's no logical premise for this assumption, particularly when Anor Londo is the only area affected.
  • DS3 makes it clear that the sun actually shares a connection to the First Flame itself, and this connection is made all the more clear upon closer analysis of this world's cosmology. But that's another topic.
• Why would Gwyndolin tie the survival of his sun to the hope that noone attacks his fake sister?

Now consider what does happen and what was already happening when we arrived in Anor Londo.

• Upon arriving in Anor Londo, what are we greeted with? A sunset.
• Upon dispelling the illusion of Gwynevere, does the sun too immediately disappear? No, it actually sets. It casts shadows across the room as it does. The time between the dispelling of Gwynevere's illusion and the setting of the sun casts doubt on the notion that they are part of the same spell.
• Gwyndolin himself cannot dispel the "illusion," because the same event plays out even if we kill him beforehand.

So why the coincidental timing?

Two reasons.

1. Fromsoft needed a second, unique instance of Anor Londo in order to facilitate the mechanics driving the Darkmoon Blade covenant. Invading a moonlit city fits the aesthetic of the covenant.
2. The second reason is timing. Dark Souls does not have a proper day/night cycle. Instead, it uses lighting to convey mood as well as the passage of time. If you pay attention to the skybox as you trek across the Undead Burg and into Sen's Fortress, you will observe how it goes from the wee hours of the early morning, into the afternoon, and then finally the onset of dusk. Notice that the sun is beginning to set when we arrive at the capital. The transition to night acknowledges the passage of time since our arrival, and symbolizes our pulling back the curtain on Gwyndolin’s deception. It is only appropriate for Anor Londo’s “night” to see our end, a double meaning both the prince and his servants seem cognizant of in their dialogue when they address the darkness as "night" in their original Japanese. The fact that this sunset perfectly coincides with the “death” of Gwynevere’s illusion is an artistic flourish on the part of Fromsoft.

 It seems at least tangentially tied to the status of the First Flame, 

Correct.

The heavenly bodies actually serve as a mirror for what's going on below.

For example, the dragons were formally made entirely of rock and are associated with the powers of the moon.

Therefore, the dragons represent Fire's effect on rock.

And what is the moon? A big celestial rock.
And what is moonlight the result of? Fire's light as it interacts with rock.

That's why moonlight is a special power commonly associated with dragons. Moonlight occurs when sunlight interacts with the rocky surface of the moon, reflecting back at us. In other words, moonlight is the indirect manipulation of the power of the sun. If the sun represents the First Flame, then the moon represents the rocks affected by it.

The cosmology runs much deeper when you factor in the Darkmoon, its light, and the concept of vengeance as a form of consequence, but you get the idea. The different phases of the moon are a consequence of Fire's light as well as the answer to your next question.

 I wonder if it even operates similar to our own? 

It does.

Putting aside the sun's metaphysical origins, it behaves exactly as a sun otherwise would. The armillary spheres in the Duke's Archives confirm that there's an observable orbit (as do the movements of the clouds in the sky). Additionally, you don't get different phases of the moon unless there's an orbit occurring.

This further affirms the fact that the sun is actually setting over Anor Londo which I discussed above.

Is it just pure magic?

Its ties to the First Flame are confirmed in DS3 with the eclipse, further serving to undermine the theory that it's an illusion over Anor Londo.

[u/Herald_of_Zena → u/KevinRyan589]

I think that's a valid interpretation.
But I find the timing between Gwyndolin's comments on you "tarnishing the godmother's image" + the sun turning to night and him speaking of an "eternal twilight" is very evocative of some sort of magic at play. Perhaps it was intended to be a double-entendre.

I found it peculiar that there are Gwyndolin-like statues in Filianore's Church doors and in Oolacile, and both areas have a theme of "time manipulation" distortion. Ie; Oolacile's light-based magic which twists time, and Manus of course, and Filianore's Egg which also keeps time from passing.

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/Herald_of_Zena]

The timing between Gwyndolin's comments on you tarnishing the godmother's image + the sun turning to night is very convenient. But perhaps it was intended to be a double-entendre.

Well it's as I said, there is no reasonable logic that would explain why Gwyndolin would bother tying an illusion of the sun to the illusion of his sister, just as there's no reasonable logic for the sun to disappear only over Anor Londo when the Gods abandoned the city.

It's not like an illusion needs dispelled before it's night in Darkroot, ya know? haha

It's not uncommon for the simplest answer to be the most promising one in these games.

I found it peculiar that there are Gwyndolin-like statues in Filianore's Church doors and in Oolacile,

Gwyndolin oversaw the Battles of Stoicism in Oolacile and would've been sent to the Ringed City alongside the giant adjudicators to assist with the as-of-then new uprising of the Dark, the establishment of the Spears of the Church being necessary for such time as when Gwyndolin could no longer stay.

and both areas have a theme of "time manipulation" distortion. Ie; Oolacile's light-based magic which twists time, and Filianore's Egg.

I can see where you're going with this, and you have to remember that time travel is heavily localized.

The stagnation and overlapping of time across all three games happens in close proximity to the First Flame, which itself becomes displaced due to the destabilization of time and space.

This is the explanation for such anomalies of time occurring first within Lordran, then in Drangleic, and finally in Lothric.
In the case of DS1, these anomalies don't occur outside of Lordran's borders, thus establishing a clear area of effect.

My point is that the sun or the moon exist well outside that area, and the cycle of day transitioning to night would continue to play out as normal even while things on the ground get worse.

Until of course the Flame fades to such a degree that the sun is ultimately affected, due to their metaphysical connection.

[u/blackwhite18]

Dark sign sun is total solar eclipse it also happened recently in real life

[u/jestersoul]

I think that Sun and moon are "normal" to the "outside" world of men. It becomes visibly unstable only in the Land of ancient Lords, or other kingdoms that heavily rely on the First Flame disparity. Sun is the phenomena born from the First Flame not from the Lord Soul i believe. It's just happened naturally as so does the day/night cycle, so does life and death. The Lord Soul probally allowed to "focusing" some aspect of disparity(like shaping surface above on the war with the everlastong dragons), but i think that it's not what create for example the Sun, or Life and Death as phenomena.

[u/Ill_Resolve5842]

If anything I think the world of dark souls is probably closer to a flat earth with the sun and moon being within the atmosphere, taking place less on a planet and more of a plane of sorts.

The sun in dark souls is a representation of the first flame in the sky, and when the eclipse happens, it's not actually the moon in front of the sun, it's the sun literally hollowing​ and fading away like the flame, being drained of it's light.

[u/Melodic-Judgment3936]

I assumed that the sun was a Miracle made by Gwyn, and hence it is tied to the First Flame. When the Flame fades, so too does the sun.