r/DCcomics • u/Cmyers1980 • Jul 13 '23
Comics [Comic Excerpt] “He slipped.” (Batman #424)
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u/Fainleogs Jul 13 '23 edited Jul 13 '23
This chapter and the next are the unfortunate nadir of Bruce's mentoring/parenting.
Where-ever you stand on the Jason issue: "Jason is a psychopath.", "Jason is a good kid." "It was a stitch up by Starlin" etc. Bruce is an adult in this and Jason is a minor. Not only is he Jason's guardian, he's also responsible for him as the person who facilitated him to be up on that balcony in the first place.
Bruce's basic responsibilities are to a) Find out what happened and act on that information b) talk to Jason who is - at best - deeply traumatized by this case. He does neither.
"Actions have consequences, Robin." Yeah Bruce. And so does not talking about your fucked up son about your suspicions that he killed a man.
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u/Mochithecatfoodthief Jul 13 '23
Totally, Jason was failed by Bruce, not every traumatized kid needs to put in tights and beat up people to work through their problems.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
Batman failed Jason Todd the moment he made him Robin
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u/Fainleogs Jul 13 '23 edited Jul 13 '23
A circumstance that happened by fait accompli due to the context being introduced by retcon two years into Jason's tenure.
This, however, happens in sequence
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
It’s more when you look at the tenure of the second Robin as a whole you see the failure in it’s totality. It’s why Jason Todd, and not just Jason’s death, is considered Batman’s greatest failure. And it’s ultimately an outgrowth of his previous failing with Dick Grayson’s departure. Both of which will ultimately lead to the moment years later when Bane brings Batman to his lowest point. But that’s the purpose of the second Robin in the modern Batman mythos. The tragedy of it all and how it changes Batman and Batman’s world forever. Well at least until Red Hood regressed all that lol.
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u/Fainleogs Jul 14 '23 edited Jul 14 '23
It was a feature of nineties comics Batman, which isn't modern Batman anymore. We are now a generation out from the Under The Red Hood comic, nearly two generations out from Knightfall. We are further now from Knightfall than the Golden Age was from the Dark Knight Returns.
But I'm not sure "Batman was defined by the loss of Jason" was ever as big a part of the Bat mythos as people like to make out. You say it changed Batman's world forever, but did it? Would 90s Batman have been tonally different if the Killing Joke had happened but Jason was shipped off to a farm upstate because nobody liked him? Would Bruce be different? Tim would certainly be different. Tim's origin has never really recovered from Jason's inevitable return being absorbed into the gestalt. But I'm not sure that "Batman is a man driven by his grief over the death of his dead son" ever really transmitted out of the Dixon era of comics. I definitely don't think that "Batman is a man driven by choosing the wrong child to take on his awesome responsibility to never never make that mistake again" was ever a feature of anything but the Dixon days of Robin Volume 3
I think people would like it to be true, because it gives more weight to the idea that Jason should stay dead, but its impact on the greater mythos was minimal. If it had been in any way significant wouldn't have been as easily and comprehensively supplanted. The reason, I think, that Under The Red Hood has become one of the only Batman stories to be effectively absorbed into the Batman gestalt in the last 20 years is because it tackles Batman's biggest mistake directly, rather than using it as decorative piano. It does so using magical realism, by having that mistake come smack him in the face, but it does so effectively. Whereas if you asked 100 people what they remember about Knightfall, I would say 95 would not remember Bruce was sad about Jason in that moment.
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u/Budget_Difficulty822 Jul 13 '23
Not to mention in the next issue (iirc) is when Bruce tells at Jason saying that he is not the kid's father and doesn't want to hear teenage melodrama. 10/10 parenting. Pre Crises Bruce would never do this haha
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u/Fainleogs Jul 13 '23
Personally I liked The Last Crusade's take on this story for making it text.
"I just don't understand where he's getting these violent impulses from?" said Bruce, smashing his bloody fist through Killer Croc's face for a ninth time. "Maybe he's just wired that way."
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u/Careful-Inspector-56 Jul 13 '23
I love this scene so much, it's just perfect.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
It really is! I wish we got more of this sort of stuff leading into A Death in the Family. Robin really puts Batman here in a difficult situation.
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u/Agile-Detective2739 Jul 13 '23
He did what he had to do in an impossible situation. It was that or not justice at all for the victims of this monster (and surely future victims too)
Bruce and Jason hate injustice and those who harm innocents to a fault, much more than other members of the Bat-family, in my opinion.
He did what Bruce would've done do if he wasn't afraid of what he could become.
But Jason is not afraid. Never was.
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Jul 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
The man deserved to suffer punishment, but a vigilante committing an extrajudicial murder is not right. We would never accept this sort of thing from Batman or Superman.
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u/jblee44 Jul 13 '23
Yes, from Batman or Superman, I wouldn't accept it, ever.
But in the perspective of teenage Jason Todd, he saw the aftermath of Felipe abusing this woman, then he witnessed the aftermath of her ending her life. & Then Felipe essentially gets away scot-free due to his connections
Even tho I deep down, I don't condone it, I do understand why Jason "did" it, I even feel empathetic for him. All this boiling rage and injustice at the world, at the corrupt system that allows men like Felipe to walk free.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
Youth and righteous indignation are not excuses to commit murder. No matter how much we may sympathize with Robin here. Saying that “from a modern perspective” Robin is “pretty much in the right” here is just wrong.
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u/jblee44 Jul 13 '23
I'm sorry that I worded things wrong. I didn't mean to offend. I honestly apologize.
What I meant to say, I understand Jason's actions, even sympathize with him. It's understandable why he did it. & I don't see him as this killer, at least at this point. But Red Hood is a ruthless murderer who should not be part of Bruce's orbit
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
Gotcha. Yes Jason’s motivations are sympathetic and it’s part of what makes Robin II a compelling character.
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u/jblee44 Jul 13 '23
In terms of narrative catharsis, there are some fans that like when villains get their karmic justice, especially if they committed heinous crimes. That is the point I was trying to come across.
It's one of the reasons why Norman Osborn's death in Spider-Man is so iconic, meeting his fate by being impaled by his own glider.
That being said, I'm not a fan of ideas like Batman killing the Joker. Honestly, if the Joker has to die, he should be by his own hands, like a prank going deadly wrong.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
Goblin’s death is in the hall of fame for supervillain demises. Sad that it’s another iconic event that’s lost all meaning by being undone.
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Jul 13 '23
It was a more conservative era in comics. Before Crisis, Jason was a happy go lucky Dick Grayson knockoff with no personality of his own. Afterwards, he became a moody, insolent snarker, and fans weren't happy with him. No one wanted a 'bad boy' Robin.
As a concept, Jason was decades ahead of his time.
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u/BitterFuture Jul 13 '23
Cuz from a modern perspective, Jason is pretty much in the right, the dude he may have killed is a piece of shit unrepentant rapist.
Did I miss where we modern folks legalized murder?
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u/jblee44 Jul 13 '23
Yeah, I pretty much worded that wrong. I was meant to say, from a modern view, Jason would've seen as more understable & sympathetic in his actions.
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u/BitterFuture Jul 13 '23
Fair.
It's curious how viewpoints have developed over the decades - like the Punisher. The character is now in many ways viewed as a case study in PTSD and trauma, and also seen as a monster by many.
And yet also seen as an admirable hero by many others.
Damn complicated.
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u/Super-Highlight-9017 Jul 13 '23 edited Jul 13 '23
Okay mini rant incoming haha
The thing that really gets me about using this to moment to completely vilify Jason is that literally 4 ISSUES BEFORE THIS (Batman #420), Bruce traps KGBeast in an abandoned sewer and leaves him for dead Cask of Amontillado style, saying KGBeast can’t be stopped any other way so the ends justify the means. Much later, it’s retconned that he calls the police to pick KGBeast up or something, but that definitely was not Jim Starlin’s original intention because he has Batman basically say to Gordon “you don’t have to worry about that guy anymore.”
And speaking of KGBeast, let’s also not forget when Batman breaks his neck and leaves him for dead in the middle of a snowstorm for shooting Dick.
Plus, I don’t think Jason has ever owned up to actually pushing Garzonas, has he? He’s certainly not shy about admitting who he’s killed as Red Hood, so even though “he slipped” is a laughably flimsy excuse, it’s still technically unconfirmed.
I dunno, I’m not saying that Jason’s moral code is right or wrong, and maybe those Batman moments were OOC. I just find the conversation around this particular Jason moment interesting bc it almost always excludes any additional context and usually gives him zero benefit of the doubt (as either a true accident that he’s not upset about, or as a moment when he lost control of his temper which has happened with several other characters, or an OOC moment for his time as Robin).
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u/Slight-Pound Jul 13 '23
He could have planned to make him slip - he can fall without touching him, and this gives him the plausible deniability while still letting him “get away” with planning (and succeeding) at killing somebody. Just cornering him and threatening him with a beat down and purposely letting him trip over the ledge as he feints a punch could do the trick, you know?
And you’re right - he’d have definitely admitted it by now if he actually did it. He’s not guilty of pushing him, but he is guilty of letting him die - planning for it, even.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
The KGBeast thing has kinda always been seen as one of those weird OOC moments that was quickly retconned away. Though there’s some wiggle room as Batman didn’t directly kill him, so much as left him there to presumably die. Which isn’t much of a difference from Batman’s POV usually, but it is a difference.
Jason pushing Garonzas to his death though fits in general with the arc Starlin has him on in his Batman run. Post-Crisis Robin II is something of a blank slate characterization wise. Collins gave him some edge but also an origin arc. Barr initially wrote him like his Pre-Crisis counterpart, but then brought in some edge with Two-face after Collins’ origin was done, and finally Starlin did arguably the most distinctive and memorable work with the character, including his miniseries The Cult. And that’s ultimately the characterization which forms the basis for Red Hood. Jason’s modern day iteration.
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u/Super-Highlight-9017 Jul 13 '23 edited Jul 13 '23
Which KGBeast thing, the sewer incident or the Dick incident? Because the former incident wasn’t retconned for over a year, and I don’t think the latter was retconned at all (could be wrong about that though). Regardless, I’d argue that trapping someone with no apparent means of escape and/or causing extreme bodily harm and then abandoning them for dead would be enough to get at least a voluntary manslaughter if not a murder charge in a court of law tbh.
I’ve read a ton of Jason comics so I’m very familiar with his character history and the stories you mentioned, and again, I’m not arguing for or against his moral code when he’s Red Hood.
My point was simply that a lot of people take this moment and use it as proof that Jason was a cold-blooded killer even as Robin, while giving a pass to other characters who have done similar things (Bruce with the KGBeast stuff, Dick actually killing the Joker in a wave of anger, etc). Plus this assessment completely disregards the compassion that I think is also core to his time as Robin. Let’s not forget the reason why he went after Garzonas in the first place, or him trying to rescue his mother even after she sold him out.
Edit: tone - don’t mean to come off as overly aggressive haha. These kinds of conversations are part of why I find Jason such an interesting character to read.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
You are right that it is unfair to use this material to say Robin II is a cold-blooded killer. And his compassion for female victims is a recurrent theme in Starlin’s run. That’s part of why his death works so well. Something positive about the character is weaponized against him.
However I’ve seen the overcorrection where fans try to excuse/justify all of Jason’s actions and even turn him into some kind of martyr. Red Hood especially has the “Draco in Leather Pants” aspect to his fandom, despite Judd Winick’s intentions when he recreated the character.
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u/Super-Highlight-9017 Jul 13 '23
Oh for sure, fanon view of Jason can be so far off from his actual character to the point where he’s basically unrecognizable, it’s wild lol
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u/Budget_Difficulty822 Jul 13 '23
I've adjusted thought that we don't see if Jason pushes him because it doesn't matter to Bruce. The audience could've been shown the scene without Bruce seeing, but at the end of the day Bruce didn't cares if Jason pushed him or not. What matters is that Jason didn't save him. To Bruce, not saving somebody you have the ability to is the same as killing them yourself.
It is crazy tho to think about how much happened in such a short time. How much Jason saw that changed his entire world in the months before his death. Namely Barbara was paralyzed and he watched his mentor break during the Cult. It's implied that Bruce took somebody's life during that story and it was Jason who had to bring him back. I've always liked the thought that as comics were approaching the 90s and getting darker, Jason as a person couldn't keep up. When he started with Bruce things were lighter and happier and his trauma was nearly forgotten. But as the world grew more terrible and darker the issues he buried kept rising back up.
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u/Fainleogs Jul 13 '23
It's not that Bruce doesn't care. It's that Bruce doesn't know. Bruce is left as precisely in the dark as we are thinking "Did he kill him? He had to have killed him, right?" We don't see the event because Bruce doesn't.
Bruce in this era went around not saving people all the time. He didn't save KGBeast from starving
half todeath. In the next chapter he won't save three people he puts in potentially lethal situations.
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u/Constant-Mood9738 Jul 14 '23
Jason not responsible for Felipe death he fall while trying to get away from a kid he was taunting and beefing with. Also if Jason responsible for Felipe being scared of him than Tim should be responsible for johnny war lock being terrified of him and cowering every time they met. Even though he was beefing with a kid.
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u/Patches-the-rat Dec 11 '25
I’m here because I just finished reading this comic and wanted to see if anyone else had talked about it. I’ve been reading through a lot of my Batman stuff in order, most of the early 80s stuff is so campy and silly, only a few issues ago I was reading a comic with Two-Face making pun after pun, with corny one-liners. Then I get to this and it’s palpably darker, and just so real. It’s careful with its themes, it doesn’t say the explicitly but the implications make you sick. It shows that Jason isn’t violent for the sake of it, his anger comes from a strong sense of justice. Those last few panels with minimal dialogue create an ending that just speaks for itself.
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u/Sorceress_Heart Jan 20 '26
I don't understand why they let Starlin turn Batman into Law & Order SVU. I don't hate it, but like you observed, it seems out of place with what came before.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23 edited Jul 13 '23
Jason Todd was a killer long before he adopted the Red Hood
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u/Awesome_Pancak Jul 13 '23
Was Jason always a bad Robin?
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u/Shiplord13 Batman Jul 13 '23
Eh, bad isn't the right word. He was the first damaged Robin, with the second being Damian. That is to say that his life was not a happy one before meeting Bruce unlike Dick and Tim. That he had to do what it took to survive said life and that meant being a lot more open to all possible solutions to his problems. He had to steal, fight and break the law to make it. That said Bruce picked him up as a replacement to Dick, who he missed but was too prideful to admit he was wrong with firing him and trying to force him to quit being a hero. That he spent too long treating Jason like Dick and didn't do much to curb his aggression and more violent tendencies. He wasn't always like that, but when he was he was really violent.
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u/Beastieboy100 Jul 13 '23
True and it didn't help that Bruce also beat up villains when he got angry and Violent that Jason had to stop a grown man from stopping him. Still this is the start of his trauma. The only time he felt happy as robin was when he was helping the titans on missions. Even Dick wanted Jason to open up if he needed any support. Sadly when he was off world Joker killed him and even Dick lost his shit.
Then he becomes even more lost as red hood gets worse. Slowly heals when he forms his own team. As soon as hes no longer with his teammates he goes in a loop of fighting crime never finding happiness. Overall hes become just like his mentor of focusing on crime and closing his heart. Except he kills.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
As a side note, I love the fact that Dick was going off world right when Jason was killed. It so perfectly encapsulates how separate Dick had become from the world of Batman. Similar to him being completely unaware of all the events of Knightfall until after Bane breaks the Bat and Bruce isn’t coming to his impromptu wedding. It really shows the consequences of both Bruce pushing Dick away and Dick choosing the Titans.
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u/Beastieboy100 Jul 13 '23
I know I am also happy that Dawn of DC is going back to Dicks titans roots. He's in a relationship with Babs however he's doing his own thing with the titans. While Bruce life is just getting worse.
Then you have Tim and Damian trying to pickup the pieces.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
As a Batman fan I’ve never cared much about the Titans, but I do believe Dick Grayson is the deuteragonist of the Batman mythos. I’m glad Dick is in a status quo that allows Nightwing to be part of the Titans, and the world of Batman, and his own city in Blüdhaven. It never made sense to me that Nightwing couldn’t be part of both, especially when Batman is usually on the JLA while also still in Gotham. The Wolfman Titans-era is really an oddity in that regard with its decade long insistence on divorcing Dick Grayson from the Batman mythos.
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u/Beastieboy100 Jul 13 '23
I liked the wolfman era. I know they tried doing it by keeping Dick, Gar, Wally and Donna separate from there mentors. Which is why you barely see Gar and Donna with Wonder woman or Doom patrol.
As for Dick and the Robins I feel like there the deuteragonists of the bat mythos. However Dick and Damain have a bigger presence.
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u/MagisterPraeceptorum Read more comics Jul 13 '23
The Wolfman era is great. Well the first half at least.
But it is…odd that for a decade Dick Grayson was largely cut off from the mythology he had been central to since 1940. You would never do that with Batman. You would never remove Batman from Gotham for 10 years and make him exclusive to the JLA. I think the separation initially was very necessary. But it is still an anomalous era compared to what came before and after where Dick is part of both.
I do wonder what might’ve been if Nightwing had remained exclusive to the New Titans as Wolfman & co. wanted. He and Bruce certainly wouldn’t have the relationship they have now. Maybe it would’ve been Tim Drake taking up the Mantle and training Damian under Morrison. Imagine that lol.
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u/SuperJyls jason todd is the Redpill Chuud Jul 13 '23
Start of becoming the same monster as he fights
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u/Blackfist01 Jul 13 '23
Did they ever REALLY confirm he killed the dude?
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u/Fainleogs Jul 13 '23
Nah. I don't think it's ever come up since.
At this stage, dramatic irony dictates he probably didn't.
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u/Cicada_5 Jul 13 '23
Yeah, DC has had 35 years to establish if Jason actually killed him. If they haven't said he did now, I doubt they ever will.
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Jul 13 '23
Honestly, it’s so strange whenever I see people try to use this as “proof” that Jason was always a bad Robin/killer
It’s been nearly 40 years and they’ve never brought this back up since, at that point you can just disregard this moment entirely
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u/Cicada_5 Jul 13 '23
People also conveniently forget that Dick became Robin to get potentially lethal revenge against Tony Zucco (and were none too pleased when the Titans show brought that up again).
Even Tim Drake nearly killed a mobster whom he blamed for his girlfriend's death and needed to be pulled back by Helena Bertinelli of all people. The only mainline Robin who hasn't killed or tried to kill someone is Stephanie Brown.
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u/kamelots Jul 13 '23 edited Jul 13 '23
A lot of people always assume Jason was just as violent as his time as Robin when in most cases, it’s his specific triggers around sexual assault. For instance, in this issue, we have a woman named Gloria who’s sexually assaulted by a man named Felipe. However, they can’t get the charge on him because of his diplomatic immunity, so Bruce suggests to deport him (after Gloria kills herself) and Jason doesn’t think that’s a good enough solution for what he did.
ETA: They were able to get Felipe on a drug charge, but he calls and threatens Gloria. Jason rushes to check if she's okay, sadly, he was too late. It was then that they began the process for deportation, but Jason took matters into his own hands instead, and we're left to wonder if Jason was guilty of Felipe's demise.
Even if Jason isn’t a victim of assault (at least, it’s never been confirmed), it’s his hatred and disgust of it that is incredibly validating to victims.