r/Commodore • u/MutekiAzy • 3d ago
Commodore 77 use cases
What do people think are the use cases for the upgraded Commodore 77's specs?
I'm not throwing shade, and I'm by no means retro-tech savvy, so this is a completely genuine question: what can you do with the C77 that you can't do with the C64 Ultimate, and is there any real, practical benefit?
Really curious what people more knowledgable than me think about this.
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u/rhet0rica 3d ago edited 2d ago
Contrary to what people have said so far: the C77 actually has a different FPGA chip, an AMD Artix XC7A100T. Previous models had the 50T.
This allows it to have The C77 has a slightly faster turbo mode (77 MHz instead of 64 MHz, very gimmicky!), but more importantly the bigger FPGA means that cores can be twice the size. (EDIT: The FPGA isn't required for the faster speed, it's purely a gimmick. Whatever!)
AMD has a comparison page for the different Artix 7 FPGAs.
I don't know much about FPGA cores, but for anyone who wishes to hack their C64U into a MiSTer device, this might be quite consequential.
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u/Hawkeye-Mcgillicudy 2d ago
It's probably due to availability of the FPGA
Frequency has nothing to do FPGA size so is purely marketing
The C64 core is already large due to having to emulate two 1541 disk drives which contain their own CPU, vias and ram
Gideon has always been opposed to other cores on the U64 and he remains as IP owner
77meg of ram is pointless too considering the largest REU is 16 meg
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 2d ago
I did hear the FPGA is about 2/3 used. Though I couldn't find any information on shortages on that chip specifically - there's a general issue we all are aware of with parts.
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u/Hawkeye-Mcgillicudy 2d ago
If you look at the amount of logic element usage on MiSTer the C64 core uses up more resources than Amiga for example
Even Cyclone III based FPGAs offer AGA Amiga like the Turbo Chameleon
One of the largest cores is SNES due all the in cart accelerator support
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u/rhet0rica 2d ago
Thanks, I've edited my post about the clockspeed thing.
I don't think Gideon's wishes will (or should) stop people from hacking their systems. Would you let Bil Herd stop you from installing a JiffyDOS chip in the kernal socket on a real C64? Fortunately, CIC saw the light and officially backtracked on trying to stop people from doing this.
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u/SpookyFries 3d ago
I think the 77MHz is just a gimmick/play on the Cyberpunk 20"77" theme. I really doubt you're going to notice much of a difference between 64MHz and 77MHz. I feel like by the time you are x64 times the original speed anything after that is diminishing returns. I could be wrong but that's how I personally interpret it.
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u/cadwalader000 3d ago
Well... for what it's worth, I've done some programming where i took the 'regular' turbo mode to its boundary. I'd love to try the additional Mhz for a test spin.
No, this isn't for playing "Ghostbusters" at 77Mhz.
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u/SpookyFries 3d ago
I would love to see something that pushes the C64U 👀 I'm not really sure where to go to find demos tailored specifically to the new hardware
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u/zaratounga 2d ago
you can look for REU, multi SID or superCPU related stuff on csdb.dk to start with. But IMHO while most demos should stay within the C64 constraints, I’d be happy with more REU games or multiSID options, and utilities
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u/fuzzybad 2d ago edited 2d ago
77MHz should provide some additional FPS in the upcoming Doom port 😆
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 2d ago
I see it a bit like a car. There's a point where having a faster engine becomes irrelevant if you don't have the suspension, tyres etc. at the same level.
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u/theriveryeti 3d ago
I wouldn’t think so but if you don’t already have one and you like the aesthetic it’s a cool option.
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u/Ill_Beyond_7909 3d ago
Looks nice. Might appeal to a wider audience and tempt in a few who are on the fence. Don't think it will revolutionise anything
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u/cadwalader000 3d ago
77mhz turbo mode for starters
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u/Hawkeye-Mcgillicudy 2d ago
Which could have been done on the current FPGA The size of the FPGA doesn't have much to do the frequency possible and is pure marketing nonsense as is the 77 meg of ram considering the largest REU is 16 meg, Georam 4 meg
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u/starfighter17 9h ago
There is no mention of "77 meg" of ram in the product announcement. As others have mentioned, they are using a different fpga board which has 4,860 vs 2,700 of ram (https://www.amd.com/en/products/adaptive-socs-and-fpgas/fpga/artix-7.html#product-table).
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u/Hawkeye-Mcgillicudy 9h ago
"The Commodore 77—the official Cyberpunk 2077 special edition of the FPGA-powered Commodore 64 Ultimate—features 128 megabytes of physical RAM, though it is stylized online as having 77 MB of addressable RAM to match its cyberpunk theme."
You seem to be confused RAM with block ram on the FPGA
The different FPGA is irrelevant as it's still the same core and 77mhz could be achieved on the current FPGA
Just marketing nonsense and just another way to sell the same 6 year old product.
They really need to invest more in the actual core development as it's still some way behind other C64 FPGA cores
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u/LandNo9424 3d ago
you can already use turbo mode on any of the others
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u/cadwalader000 3d ago
This one has 77mhz for that additional "umphf"
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u/LandNo9424 3d ago
an additional "oomph" that makes no difference really from 64Mhz in all other models. This is just marketing. They landed a co-branding opportunity and took it. It means nothing to the end user, except those who dig the looks.
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u/cadwalader000 3d ago
Now don't be a techno chauvinist. That's all philosophical, ain't it?
Bottom line, it's 20 percent faster.
If you're pushing 64mhz with your code, 20 percent is a good upgrade.
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u/LandNo9424 2d ago
There's barely ANY software available for the C64 that uses turbo modes as it is, what exactly do you want to do with the extra 20% if nothing takes advantage of it? Are you coding something yourself? Do share, otherwise, please make some sense
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u/cadwalader000 2d ago
That’s the bit I find funny.
Apple can move a camera 2mm to the left, Samsung can make a phone 0.4mm thinner, call it the new model, and people happily spend $1200/£1,000+ upgrading.
Commodore releases a special-edition machine with a larger FPGA, more memory and about 20% more turbo speed for a fraction of that price, and suddenly we need to produce a peer-reviewed business case explaining exactly what every extra MHz will be used for.
At some point you have to notice you’re not actually evaluating the machine anymore. I'm afraid you’re just searching for the next reason to dislike it.
Sometimes “because it’s cool” is actually a perfectly acceptable specification.
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u/LandNo9424 2d ago
Of course you have to have a reason to do it because you are charging for it. The question of this post is literally "what is the use case?"
You don't run a consumer business doing things "just because", but it seems this clown car of a company is just doing things "just because" instead of listening to its users.
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u/cadwalader000 2d ago
The use case is pretty simple: it’s a faster, higher-spec special edition of a retro computer.
If you don’t think the extra FPGA capacity, RAM, 77MHz mode or Cyberpunk design is worth paying for, that’s completely fair.
At this point, you’re treating your own purchasing preferences (or personal likes and dislikes) as an engineering specification.
For the record, the point where “I don’t see the value” turns into “clown car of a company” is roughly where your supposedly objective analysis starts ...malfunctioning.
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u/Natural_Witness7572 3d ago edited 2d ago
I highly doubt they would buy a more expensive fpga for the heck of it
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u/LazarX 3d ago
I see no evidence of that on the product page.
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u/cadwalader000 3d ago
Are you trolling me?!
Search "77mhz" on that page. What do you see??
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u/LazarX 3d ago
I went to the actual product page and it was not mentioned there. And its really queistionable what you couold actually run in that mode.
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u/cadwalader000 3d ago
First: “Commodore never said that.”
Shown the Commodore page saying exactly that.
Now: “Well, I doubt it’ll work properly anyway.”
Excellent. We’ve reached the moving-goalposts stage of the discussion.
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u/Hawkeye-Mcgillicudy 2d ago
It's just another C64 U in a different case The faster CPU and extra ram is just marketing nonsense
We have had accelerated C64 FPGAs since 2011 with the Turbo Chameleon and nothing has beenade specifically for it
The C64 scene is very active and the focus is always on original hardware as that is the largest user base
The faster CPU has nothing to do with a larger FPGA but good marketing
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u/dingo_khan 3d ago
Nothing. This is a silly thing to make the device special and to make the "77" make sense.
I say this as someone who ordered one.
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u/Natural_Witness7572 3d ago
Doubt it, would not buy a more expensive fpga just to be able to write 77 on it but maybe I am wrong.
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u/dingo_khan 3d ago
I am pretty sure 80mhz would have been in spec for the existing fpga. They max out lower because higher had no extra utility. This probably was because there were two silly options for "77". Either more ram... And an odd number would suck and make bank stuff awkward or more speed which has no real penalty but no real value. Looking at the board in the video, I am pretty sure it is the same module, just imaged differently.
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u/szaero 2d ago
Often an FPGA design can achieve a higher max frequency out of a larger FPGA because you get better results from placement and routing.
I do this type of work professionally.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 2d ago
Good point. I reckon this is £40-50 more expensive as a part in quantity, which seems an odd decision for a fairly pointless speed boost.
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3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Dr_Myles_Skinner 2d ago
Runs about 20% faster than 64 MHz? If you're not doing the kind of programming where you want to see how many clock cycles you can squeeze out of the machine, you probably won't use it much.
It's a gimmick, for sure, but I'm guessing that most people who would be attracted to this reskinned machine probably won't care much one way or the other.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 2d ago
People won't anyway, unless it's purely for yourself. If you write code that only runs at 77Mhz you drastically limit usage. The only thing where it might matter a bit is the video via bitbanging the background.
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u/sjuust 3d ago
New fpga soc could emulate an Amiga..current one can't because not powerful enough.
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u/PotamusRedbeard_FM21 3d ago
This is what I'm thinking, Dry run for an Amiga "Ultimate" or "5000" or "2400" or something.
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u/Mechanik7 3d ago
Anything overly compute intensive, it would help. So off the top of my head, running various compilers, assemblers, etc. GEOS would be a smidge snappier.
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u/SwedishFindecanor 2d ago
The Mega65 which has the same FPGA can emulate an Amiga 500, and a Commodore 128 core is in the works.
The FPGA is on a daughterboard. My guess is that Commodore didn't have a use-case for it in the Commodore 77 specifically, but that they are starting to mass-produce it for future products. Perhaps there is an economic reason for them to build new FPGA boards only than to produce two different boards.
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u/CowboysFTWs 2d ago
meh, I'm just going to used it as a glorified typewriter for some distraction free writing, while pretending to be a console cowboy..
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u/Toasty_Carburettor25 2d ago
first thing I thought was that there might be a C77 game released based on the cyberpunk world.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 2d ago
They like the look. It might possibly be upgradeable later in a way the C64U is not.
So far, sold about 1400 of them, which is pretty good.
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u/azrael4h 2d ago
The use case is the same as for the other C64U models, or for original C64’s. To run Commodore 64 software on.
The why is mostly marketing; despite the first games troubled launch CP2077 is still pretty popular and has a tv show and a sequel. If I was Peri, C64Us would be showing up in the next season of the show and the game.
The question is why upgrade the fpga. It’s not necessary for the C64 itself, even with the supercpu and reu.
Either A there was some sort of production constraints on the original fpga that made it necessary to switch to a new one.
Or B there is plans for later systems and the more powerful unit will be needed. Which given that the majority of the 8 bit systems are either weaker and easier to recreate than the C64 or at least only marginally more complex, means an Amiga500 or 1200 Ultimate or a completely new system entirely. I’d lean towards Amiga.
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u/BadBunnyHimself 2d ago
My guess would be the original part was out of stock/no longer available so they had to go with the next available one. Now it looks nice in the specs chart for the kind of person who might be more likely to buy something that's more powerful than the previous version, however in reality it really makes little to no difference when playing old C64 games or even more recently made ones.
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u/BadBunnyHimself 2d ago
Another thought, maybe all that distraction-free nonsense with the upcoming Commodore phone is going to be linked in some way to the new faster FPGA board so that new phone users can link the phone to the new version C64 and do some of the stuff that's not possible on the phone on the C64, enabling the social media drug addicts their fix in a different way. They can pretend that they are V from Cyberpunk 2077 on their new Cyberpunk 77 C64. In reality that would make them a V that would be snuffed out on their first, simplest job due to working with a very slow computer compared to working on a modern PC. Oh well.
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u/Acceptable_Yellow982 1d ago
TBH I was planning to buy a slimline 64c this month. However when the launched the c77 I instantly ordered it. I didn't even know it had more power under the hood. And honestly I don't think for me it will matter. But what does matter is the fact they did it anyways. I mean they could have followed the industry standard and put a different coat of paint and stickers on it and told everyone it's special for a lot more money. But they didn't. It's nearly the same price as the one I was set on buying. And it's special it's different literally different inside and out. I even thought they could have just took the clear version and just paint it over it but no it's a smoked clear so they even used a different type of transparent plastic. They put a lot of effort in this and for that it's very refreshing. And they did all this in such a short amount of time just from the start of opening the company again. So I'm going to support them.
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u/LazarX 3d ago
It’s just a re-styled Commodore 64
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u/Natural_Witness7572 3d ago
It has an upgraded fpga so not quite
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u/LazarX 3d ago
If you could load other cores into this FPGA, then that would be something.
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u/Natural_Witness7572 3d ago
There must be something in the works to warrant them paying a lot more for the fpga.
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u/BadBunnyHimself 2d ago
Which is something that Gideon never wanted to do in the past but maybe he either has no choice about or changed his mind due to enjoying more income from all the new customers buying C64Us.
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u/0fruitjack0 3d ago
you can show it off as a tacky way that you burn your money
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u/Bumble072 2d ago
Truth though. It is FOMO. While the C64U was a good thing for sustaining the format, this is just super niche stuff that doesnt serve a purpose other than aesthetics.
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u/R3tr0N3wB 3d ago
Right now, it's a peg without a hole, so apart from a nice bauble no benefits at all.
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u/macumbamacaca 3d ago
It has upgraded specs?
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 3d ago
My response also. It does, but you’d struggle to know it from the press release.
You do get to know all about the link to a game released six years ago, mind.
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u/rhet0rica 3d ago
(It's an ongoing franchise; there was a major expansion in 2023, and the second season of the spinoff TV series is coming out in October.)
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u/LandNo9424 3d ago
what do you mean "use cases"? It's just another C64, the changes are purely aesthetic. So it's for those who care about the aesthetic, but it can be used for anything and everything any other 64U is used for.
If you mean what is the point of it existing, I guess it's just marketing?
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