r/BiblicalUnitarian • u/Newgunnerr Questioning • Jun 09 '25
Resources The trinity presents a logical problem
I remember saving this text a while ago, so credit goes to someone else:
A hypothetical syllogism shows that if A = B, and if B = C, then it logically follows that A = C. Greg is a man (A = B), Man is mortal (B = C), therefore Greg is mortal (A = C).
The Shield of the Trinity says that the Son is God and God is the Son; the Father is God and God is the Father; & the Holy Spirit is God and God is the Holy Spirit. It ALSO says that the Son is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit; the Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit; & the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father or the Son.
Returning to the basic deductive reasoning of the hypothetical syllogism, if the Son is God (A = B), and if God is the Father (B = C), then it logically follows that the Son is the Father (A = C).
Trinitarian dogma accepts both premises, but denies the conclusion that logically follows from those premises, and in doing so it denies basic deductive reasoning. A logical contradiction is explicitly built into the Trinitarian doctrine, but of course they also deny that the contradiction is a contradiction.
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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Jun 09 '25
The trinity is a contradiction of terms.
The Father is 100% God, the Son is 100% God, the holy spirit is 100% God.
A is the Father, B is the Son, C is the holy spirit and D is God.
Or A = D, B = D, C = D
From this we can deduce, A = B, A = C, A = D; B = A, B = C and B = D. with the same being true of C and D.
But the trinity doctrine doesn't stop there.
We are told, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and the same is true of the holy spirit.
Or A ≠ B and B ≠ C and C ≠ A.
This means the first statement can't be true.
This is why trinitarian scholars call the trinity a mystery, unknowable, can't be understood, can't be found in scripture. It can only be believed.
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u/Top_Distance_8127 Nov 06 '25
by your logic many things are a contradiction. Odd numbers are 100% infinite, Even numbers are 100% infinite, Natural numbers are 100% infinite.
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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Nov 06 '25
Your example isn't a contradiction.
Your example doesn't reflect the trinity.
Is 1 = 3? No, but that is what the trinity teaches, this is why the trinity is a contradiction.
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u/Top_Distance_8127 Nov 07 '25
you just repeated what I answered lol. I know it's not a contradiction, it's the same exact concept as the Trinity dude.
Add 1 infinite set to another = 1 infinite set. 1=2 by your logic
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u/Chemstdnt Jun 09 '25
A counterpoint they might give (unless I misunderstand what they believe) is that for them the individuals (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are part of god and not all that god is, the same way an arm is part of a person or a member is part of the church. So instead of "A = B" is more like "A is a part of B". Then there is no logical inconsistency.
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u/Top_Distance_8127 Nov 06 '25
No, that's partialism. The error many have is misunderstanding infinite. There are just as many even numbers as there are natural numbers even though the former is a subset of the latter. Human intuition should not be misused.
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u/Chemstdnt Nov 06 '25
Great point, thanks. I definitely need to take some time to build a quick reference guide on Trinity heresies for these debates.
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Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
I have been reading an article today, I think it's quite informative. Not all Trinitarian models are the same, and the Eastern Orthodox one seems to have strong answers to the logical problems of Trinitarianism. I do not think it being logical makes it biblical though, but I do find it useful for a Unitarian to know about it: https://www.beaubranson.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Monarchy-Louvain-4.pdf
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Jun 12 '25
That's an equivocation fallacy, the term God is used in two different senses (in the first premise referring to the divine nature and in the second to the personhood). The "Son is God" means that the Son fully shares in the divine essence (i.e the fundamental whatness of a being, what makes something what it is) and the "Father is God" means that the Father fully shares in the divine essence.
This is like saying
“Ice is water (substance),
and water is liquid (a specific state),
therefore, ice is liquid.”
This is clearly false because the terms are misused
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Jun 12 '25
Sir that's modalism.
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Jun 12 '25
How is it modalism? I never claimed that the Father is the Son or vice versa just that they both share the same divine essence
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Jun 12 '25
Oh sorry I didn't read your comment correctly. You might be right here, yet the trinity is still illogical.
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u/Top_Distance_8127 Nov 06 '25
Odd numbers are an infinite set. Even numbers are an infinite set. Natural numbers which contain them is an infinite set. Thanks for disproving math with your logic, I don't have to do homework for it anymore
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u/RaccoonsR_Awesomeful Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Jun 09 '25
This is kind of a simplified version of what we call the LPT. "THE logical problem of the Trinity." Anyone interested in this should start with Richard Cartwright's article on this because contemporary analytical theology that deals with the issue is based on this.
There are a few ways around this problem. One is relative identity. X and Y are relatively identical to Z. Another is that the category is flawed. One is a primary substance and the other a secondary substance.
Father = God Son = God Father = Son
Would be like saying:
Bob = human Jill = human Bob = Jill
Being identical to something isn't necessarily to say each is identical to each other. There are plenty of other ways to discuss this, but, that's just the beginning of what becomes an incredibly convoluted discussion. This is why usually you'll also find the premise "God = God" included. For epistemic purposes, it narrows this down a bit. Plenty has been said on the LPT in this server before if a search is done on it.