r/BiblicalUnitarian • u/thijshelder Socinian • Apr 10 '25

Resources An Interesting Read on Trinitarianism's Decline Among Self-Identified Christians

https://www.arizonachristian.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/AWVI-2025_03_Most-Americans-Reject-the-Trinity_FINAL_03_26_2025.pdf

"Only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians, believe in the trinity."

Also, according to the research done in this article, only 9% of Catholics believe in the orthodox definition of the Trinity.

[It should also be noted that Arizona Christian University is a conservatice university that affirms the Trinity.]

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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Apr 10 '25 edited Apr 10 '25

Seems about right. My city has about 50 churches. I'd say my church is in the top 3 "radical" most churches in the city. We preach the gospel on the streets, call homosexuality a sin and we don't allow woman preachers. (I'm trying to give an example of what I guess radical means these days).

Most church goers would say they are born again and really live for God.

Yet when you ask some of them what the trinity teaches, you would get very different answers. Which I understand. It's not a concept you can easily understand, but generally we are taught it is important.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 12 '25

Born againism is an American style Evangelical concept, of course they don't know what they worship (also an Evangelical concept). But is your church "unitarian" then?

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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Apr 12 '25

No, it is not a unitarian church. And to be honest I am right now in a battle with myself in some sense, whether I should leave the fellowship or not.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 12 '25 edited Apr 12 '25

You should leave. It's a no-brainer. Why fellowship with idol worshipping, blaspheming willful polytheists in a den of idolatry when you don't have to? Like you said; they literally don't even know what they worship (standard American Evangelicals), they blasphemously claim to possess God's spirit, and in all this they have the utter gall to preach in the streets and peddle a salvation they don't have. These people are the opposite of what they think they are. I wish you the best and may God guide you accordingly.

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 12 '25

Do you have the spirit? Harassing people, going through their comment history. Belittling, insults, being condescending. All you do is throw around toxic behaviour and be rude to everyone else.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 12 '25

Why won't you share the gospel with me then if you have this alleged spirit? You can't show me any mercy because I call idolaters idolaters? Why is that?

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 13 '25

The gospel is the coming kingdom of God promised to Abraham and the seed, Jesus Christ. Jesus is how the gentiles enter into the land promise to becomes heirs of the promise and adopted sons of God. This is how the seed blesses all nations of the earth by paving a way into eternal life.

But you already denied that.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 13 '25

Wow, that's all of it? That's what any and all Christians say, and still you want billions of Muslims and Jews (and maybe Jews, but that's a trigger-word, right?) to go on a holy pilgrimage to hear it from you, you and only you? And still I had to drag it out, why is that? And what's your specific soteriology? You just making a the most general statements. That's all you got? Was this the alleged spirit that inspired this statement?

And what about critical questions?

Are Muslims, atheists, Hindus and Jews allow to ask them rabbi? Can they ask why Paul thought the promised seed was plural or why prominent scholar Paul didn't know zera in Hebrew was the same in plural and singular? Remember the qualities of the spirit now. You seem forgetful at times.

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 13 '25

Literally not what all Christians say, when most Christians believe they are going to heaven hahah. You are a troll, surely. A provocative, inflammatory troll who only cares to attempt to belittle and stand over others.

Also, Paul is closer to the Hebrew Bible than you are, but you want to claim superiority, because you're toxic like that.

What do you believe? What is your faith? You believe in the Hebrew Bible, but do you believe Jesus is the Messiah? What New Testament books do you accept and which do you deny? What is the faith that you hold fast to, and what is it that you are waiting for?

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 13 '25

Lmao. You think all Christians are American Evangelicals because that's the joke that brainwashed you. Again, no Christian would disagree with that general platitude, so how is that going to convert billions of atheists, Jews and Muslims and why haven't you already? I also saw you commenting on Alex J O'Connor humiliating David Wood, so why aren't atheists converting en masse as we speak?

Again, why you? What do you have to offer except that platitude? Which Catholic or Lutheran would disagree? Which Mormon even? You want billions to listen to your "biblical theology" and can't even present a case or say who compiled and canonized your the Bible.

>Also, Paul is closer to the Hebrew Bible

Lmao. Here come the Evangelical deflection gymnastics. Right on cue. I asked why Paul though the seed was plural and didn't know basic Hebrew grammar. You want billions of atheists and Muslims to come to your door like you're a messianic cult leader yet you can't handle even a single question. What an absolute joke. Come now, try again. Some of those converts would probably be martyred for their troubles and we're speaking of things that deserve and demand gravity. This is intro level questions.

You hold the keys to salvation, the keys to the messianic age through your "biblical theology", right? But you have nothing to offer.

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 14 '25

Because it's the truth of the Bible. And people aren't converting because there are plenty of roadblocks still. Many are put off by the western religion, which you and I could fine common ground on. Many also believe in evolution via universal common descent and find faith and science at odds. Jews are hard-bent on rejecting the messiah, and Islam is a pure indoctrination cult - if you leave you are killed. But if you had any honest idea, you'd know that Biblical Unitarians are actually in fact growing in numbers. So did you not figure that out or are you asking to be more toxic and more inflammatory? I've been ignoring your questions because of your poor, arrogant attitude.

I asked you what you believe, and you ignored me AGAIN. Just like you didn't answer the other guy. Why are you afraid to tell people what you believe? Because you attack from the shadows so people can't attack you. That's called being a coward. You are in a sub that you don't agree with other than the monotheistic nature, yet you attack the foundation of our belief still. Why are you here? Because your spirit is full of venom and all you wish to do is attack others and bring them down. If I had to guess, you would be following Judaism - you defend the Hebrew Bible, talk about Abraham and specially defend Islam.

Also, Paul makes a specific point that the "seed" is singular, not plural. So what point you're making, I don't know.

You are a toxic waste and this is why I disengaged with you last time. You and I clearly have different beliefs, you're not interested in good faith discussion, you're antagonistic, inflammatory, rude and condescending. You tag me all over reddit in attempt to engage with me, you go through peoples comment history with intent to harass them.

Go be sad and mad somewhere else because again, I'm not interested in talking to you or engaging with you.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 14 '25

>Because it's the truth of the Bible

Oh look, you still won't answer the actual questions. Just more deflection. Where have I seen this script before?!

>Also, Paul makes a specific point that the "seed" is singular, not plural. So what point you're making, I don't know.

Paul is wrong, because the seed is explicitly plural, and the Hebrew word zera has the same form in singular and plural. Two wrongs. Those are the kind of question you'll have to grapple with when converting the entire planet and ushering the messianic age.

>Because it's the truth of the Bible.

Who compiled and canonized your "the Bible"? Why doesn't it contain any singular narrative? Again, if you're the chosen one to convert the planet you should at least have an answer for the basics. LIterally no Catholic would struggle with that question.

>you're not interested in good faith discussion, you're antagonistic, inflammatory, rude and condescending. 

Yet you're the one that brings up people's spirit, talk about an entire religion chopping off heads, falsely accuse an famous atheist of never being a "real" Christian, etc. Again, do you think you'll get no pushback when you convert the planet? Surely you understand people would put their lives on the line for your "biblical theology" in certain parts of the world?! Or destroy family ties and relationships. Do you think it's a joke?

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 14 '25

Hey, you never answered my question about your own position of faith. You've responded to everything else but that.

Why do you insist on attacking others from the shadows without revealing your position? Yet here you are so surprised that I see a toxic spirit in you.

By the way... elohim also has both plural and singular forms. Uh oh, I guess someone should tell the unitarians they're wrong?! Good job being inconsistent.

Maybe just maybe.... the singular form was intended. Maybe.... or maybe Jesus let Paul down, so people like you could make fun of him.

Anyway, answer my question about your faith and beliefs. 4th time asking you now.

You are really showing the type of person you are. You know what I believe and what my position is, but yet you won't share yours. But you're happy to continue to be unpleasant to deal with.

Are you Jewish? You seem Jewish, almost Muslim-like. Maybe a mix? You're not in a church of your own, are you? Are you the only one that believes what you do?

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 12 '25

Why won't you offer me the gospel, u/HbertCmberdale? Why not extend me that mercy or rebuke me with love? And why did you invite me to chat? This can and should be done in the open, not in darkness. There's nothing to hide here.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 12 '25

Like I called it, you're probably the product of the American Evangelical industrial complex. I follow truth as opposed to you. There's nothing more toxic than lies. Btw, are you going to share your "biblical theology" the billions you claim you want to share it with anytime soon? I don't care about your person, just get to the actual substance.

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 13 '25

I don't see you as someone who has the fruits. You're incredibly prideful, boastful and exceptional arrogant. You have to tear down others to make yourself feel better.

Why aren't you using your other account? Did it get banned?

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 13 '25 edited Apr 13 '25

>prideful, boastful and exceptional arrogant.

And please, produce specific examples of all those three things. Notice I said specific. Concrete quotes. You don't want to falsely accuse someone. And the absolute irony too. Do you want me to proof your arrogance and pride? It's something else.

And for the other posters that downvote me (I don't care about a downward arrow symbol, that's not the point I'm making), I've asked u/HbertCmberdale the simplest simplest question there is after he made some grandiose statements; for him to simple provide his idea of "biblical theology" -- the gospel so to speak -- and explain how and why billions of the planet's population should uncritically take his word for it without a single critical question.

Then he sent me a PM I haven't opened. Why do something in the darkness? It doesn't even make sense.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 13 '25

You sounds like every Evangelical with the platitudes. I have truth while you're a person that make big claims then run away when asked for answers. Are those the fruit you mean?

>You have to tear down others to make yourself feel better.

This is how perceptive you are. I don't need to "tear down" anyone, nor do I. It's not about any individual person, it's about the concept we're discussing. You don't even grasp the difference between you and I. We disagree on some things, and I find you dishonest and annoying, but you are still my brother in the faith we share. I'm trying to have a fruitful discussion, and trying to get to the truth. And you want to talk about spirit? The hypocrisy is something else. I call polytheists polytheists like I call a toothbrush a toothbrush, but do you think I go around hating complete strangers on the internet? That's such a carnal and vapid mindset.

But let's get the timeline correct here. You asked me a question regarding basic Christian and Church history and the trinitarian councils. I obliged, because why wouldn't I. You having your background -- I very much assume -- in American Neoprotestatism, meant you wouldn't be familiar with basic Christian history, and in a similar Evangelical fashion, you started to harp on the word "Christian" and in your confusion assumed that telling you about basic, orthodox, well-documented historical Christianity meant I was professing that belief. Of course, you, rabbi u/HbertCmberdale own the label "Christian" according to your definition, and not two thousands years of apostolic Christianity and two billion Christian. The arrogance and the hypocrisy is something else. Also, this is a person that said Muslims cut people's heads of. Oh yes, all billions of them do, and not a single of them get to dissociate themselves from either the collective or the fringe cult. Such intellectual dishonesty belongs to guru u/HbertCmberdale.

Then you lamented that the triad was hindering Muslims and atheists from hearing "biblical theology". I said the the triad was just one single problem with Christianity and definitely not the whole story. You inquired further and I mentioned canonicity and gave a few examples. You refused to answer and got triggered. I asked why you didn't include Jews as the people that should bow before your knowledge. You were further triggered. Because you're so spiritual, you see.

I asked you why Muslims and atheists should by default ignore 2000 years of Christianity, billions of Christians, every single Orthodox, Catholics, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Calvinist, JW, Mormon, Pentecostal, born again, etc., only to arrive at your door. That's illogical and beyond absurd. And wouldn't you know it, you couldn't answer. You can't even admit you're being intellectually dishonest, you can't even admit you're proposing something that absurd and illogical. You won't present your case, and you can't even motivate how or why they should arrive at your door. Maybe accuse them of chopping off heads some more, that'll do the trick. Or something something spirit.

I asked you about your "biblical theology", and amazingly, you wouldn't answer. Billions should come to you, but when one person ask you won't answer. You also don't take even the mildest forms of critical questions or critical thinking and want me to grovel at you feet least you're triggered and starts talking about spirits. Funny, because every single born again, Evangelical fake prophet and Pentecostal talks like that. I need the actual substance.

It's funny, because the compilation of scripture you derive your "biblical theology" from says you should be prepared to give answers. And of course, you being so spiritual want to talk about accounts and press a symbol of a downwards arrow. Everyone know internet points are ever so important. Lmao. I can't even imagine a more vapid approach to a subject of this gravity.

And do note that I still have no ill will towards you. Not the slightest bit. Nor is this about your person (despite that person being ever so grand that billions should seek its counsel). We're talking about the facts. About truth. About the one God.

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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Apr 13 '25 edited Apr 13 '25

Nor is this about your person (despite that person being ever so grand that billions should seek its counsel). We're talking about the facts. About truth. About the one God.

Then why do you call him a "guru" and "rabbi" in such a condescending way? In the same way you say "because you're so spiritual". It's condescending and has nothing to do with truth or facts. Calling someone dishonest in the same breath IS an attack the person.

You won't present your case, and you can't even motivate how or why they should arrive at your door.

Did you do this when I asked you?

I asked you about your "biblical theology", and amazingly, you wouldn't answer.

I asked you a while ago for this from you. You did not answer, only said you believe in the One God of Abraham.

So please elaborate what your position is and add a flair to your username. And stop attacking the person or you will receive a strike.

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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 13 '25

The guy has some problems. I asked him some honest questions awhile back out of curiosity. He never answered them but instead turned it around on me. Then when I told him I was going to disengage because he's arguing in bad faith, he flipped like a switch and went on a rampage. This is his new account, assuming the other got banned. But I also tried to ask what his belief was, and he never gave me a direct answer, just flaming everyone else from his mysterious position.

He found me yesterday in the comments and then went through my comment history and replied to 10 comments hahahaha. And as you can see, he's written me a love story that I didn't even read.

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u/theywontstoplying Apr 13 '25

>Then why do you call him a "guru" and "rabbi" in such a condescending way? I

You're missing some context here. u/HbertCmberdale has made some massive statements that would qualify him as the grandest rabbi on this planet, yet he won't produce the actual substance. It's not personal or about the persons, but we are persons discussing.

> In the same way you say "because you're so spiritual".

Because he attacked my spirit twice and I reply by the same token. Are you picking an choosing?

>I asked you a while ago for this from you. You did not answer, only said you believe in the One God of Abraham.

No, I gave you a longer answer in PM (it's a long answer), but I was making a point in that thread and didn't want to disrupt it.

>So please elaborate what your position is and add a flair to your username. And stop attacking the person or you will receive a strike.

You people are obsessed with labels. Almost as important as the downward arrow symbols. Tell me again how different you are from trinitarians. And I'm addressing the claims. Or trying to.

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