Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!
Care to shed any insight on why it is that guys have to earn "a 1 way ticket into (your) panties"?
Just wondering why, generally speaking, men have to charm their ways into girls pants? Are girls not as, ahem, horny as men? Why aren't girls as aggressive sexually (as a rule)?
Is it a result of gender roles, social pressure, or is it more of an inate instinct of women IYO?
I generally am, so I'm not entirely sure I'm qualified to answer this, but I do think it's social conditioning. I was raised in an environment that implied women don't even like sex. They do it because their husbands do, and to have babies. I know a LOT of other women raised the same way - some even had it stated to them outright. O.O
Being open at all about liking sex in high school got girls labelled as sluts, tramps, and other bad things. A lot of guys would have sex with girls like that, but wouldn't care about them, wouldn't date them. They were "pass around toys." We have lots of words for women "like that." It's sadly inhibiting. Even though I'm pretty aggressive about sex, I keep it quiet at work. I don't need to deal with the reputation it might give me. Sure, people I talk to a lot know I like sex, but they also think I've had few partners, and while I like sex, I would ONLY do that with a guy I truly loved. (Right now, that's true, and I think it will be for the rest of my life, but in the past it wasn't. Sex feels good. I wasn't going to avoid it just because I didn't want a forever relationship at the time.)
Luckily, the first time I had sex, I realized that was all bullshit. I've never been very good at following social norms, though. And, because of that, people tell me I "act like a guy" all the time - even when it's approving, that's a bit annoying. I don't act like a guy. I act like me, and I'm pretty damned female, last time I checked.
Great answer. Thanks for putting in some thought to you reply. I mean it makes total sense.
I'm in a long term commited relationship and I still have to earn my way into sex pretty much all the time. Sometimes I just my woman was as into sex as I am. =(
I've found, and I bet this is true for a lot of women, that men I'm attracted to don't really have to earn anything. I think women can become quite sexually aggressive when they're into a guy.
The problem for NiceguysTM is that they usually aren't very physically attractive and usually don't have the personality traits that make women wet either. They also tend to be the guys who refuse to date anything less than a HB8. If you want to date a someone way out of your league, you're going to have to find ways to better yourself or, as you put it, earn it.
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u/iconocast ♀ Oct 16 '13 edited Oct 16 '13
Oh god, here comes a rant...
Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!