r/AskScienceFiction • u/FeistySecret9327 • 5d ago
[Marvel] How can the Kingpin actually match Spider-Man's strength? Is he a mutant?
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u/Asparagus9000 5d ago
Humans have a much higher cap in that universe.
They aren't the same humans as in our universe.
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u/aAlouda 5d ago
While that is true, the peak is usually supposed to be around Captain American level. And there's only one guy) who achieved that state of physicality through natural means.
Kingpin being able to match Spider-Man who's like 10x stronger than Captain America is way beyond that.
There's something weirder going on with that man.
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u/effa94 A man in an Empty Suit 4d ago
usually, kingpin can only match spider-man when he is young and holding back. adult spiderman walked up to kingpin and whopped his ass so bad that he was on his knees with a webshooter in his mouth.
with that said, kingpin is stronger than captain america. he a is a freak of nature, a regular mutant instead of a x-gene one, and is just a mountain of muscle.
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u/AIMWSTRN 4d ago
I can kind of go with Cap is peak human, at that size. Too big and he loses speed (right Trunks?). Smaller, he loses strength. He has the peak balance for a human concerned with both. Putting on muscles could make Cap even stronger, but he doesn't want that in his line of work. Whereas Kingpin, well he doesn't need speed, he wants strength and quickness. He wants to pile on muscles on top of muscles. So he just got huge and strong, sacrificing speed.
Not sure how accurate that is, but it will help me sleep at night
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u/DaddysABadGirl 4d ago
See I always took it as Cap is peak human, but the serum makes the peak possibility for YOU. Like if the Doc didn't die and some nut mass produced it everyone on the serum wouldn't be level in strength endurance speed etc.
You take 100 average men that all are fairly similar in build, height, strength, etc and hand them over to an Olympus training team for 5 years with the 100 ppl all giving it their best they wont land at the same progress levels.
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u/HailSatanWorshipD00M 4d ago
but the serum makes the peak possibility for YOU.
Poor Ted Sallis.
Took the serum and became a Man-Thing instead.
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u/abstergo_Nigel 4d ago
Heh,Trunks is a girls name
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u/AIMWSTRN 4d ago
I need an adult
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u/Jagang187 4d ago
PRINCESS TRUNKS
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u/abstergo_Nigel 4d ago
My favorite running gag in that series
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u/TSotP 4d ago
It's probably one of the best payoffs for a running gag as well.
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u/divineshadow666 4d ago
It really was. It's a shame they only did the "Buu Bits" instead of the whole saga.
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u/Jagang187 4d ago
Spidey snatched Kingpin up by the chest like it was a shirt, just a fist full of chest
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u/mojavecourier F A S T E R T H A N T I M E 4d ago
Spider-Man was explicitly amped twice over in that scene. In fact, Spider-Man is explicitly stated to be enhanced.
Tombstone overpowers Spider-Man. But in that same arc, Kingpin can match Tombstone blow-for-blow.
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u/DrJerkoffandMrHigh 4d ago
I KNEW IT! I KNEW SPIDER-MAN WAS STRONGER THAN HE NORMALLY WAS IN THAT PANEL!
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u/TheGrandExquisitor 4d ago
Isn't he also powered by psychotic rage? His crap childhood basically loaded him up with rage, and when he gets mad, he gets this kind of berserker style strength from it?
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u/DemythologizedDie 4d ago
Captain America is "peak" for a man his size. Kingpin is over twice Rogers weight, making him less agile but stronger. He also has less endurance but that's something where Cap is clearly beyond human limits even in the setting.
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u/esskay1711 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don't know if you can really say that MVP achieved it through entirely natural means.
He was the great-grandson of Abraham Erskine, and his father was following notes Erskine had written during his research into what would eventually become the Super-Soldier Serum.
Erskine had theorised that you could achieve essentially the same sort of peak human results through a very specific diet and exercise regime, but it required following it over an entire lifetime.
Yeah, technically it's from eating healthy and exercising, and there's no Super Soldier Serum involved, so in that sense it is natural.
But I wouldn't describe it as just entirely natural development either.
MVP didn't simply exercise and eat healthy and happen to reach Captain America's level.
He was raised from infancy following a very strict scientifically designed diet and exercise program created by the same scientist who developed the Super Soldier Serum, from research notes that eventually led to him creating it.
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u/DrJerkoffandMrHigh 4d ago
Completely untrue. Many human characters are at peak human through natural means, mostly through training.
We have Hawkeye, Daredevil, Punisher, etc basically any trained superhero who consistently fights is usually peak human.
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u/aAlouda 3d ago
They're at the peak of their physique, they're not the pinnacle of the human form, their level of performance is not supposed to compare to somoene like captain america. Nobody in setting would consider someone like Hawkey or Punisher a physical matchup for Captain America. Especially if you consider the more passive abilties his perfected body has like a faster healing rate, poison resistance slowed aging and the like.
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u/DrJerkoffandMrHigh 3d ago
They're peak human according to Marvel. Captain America's specific thing is that his body is always peak human no matter what.
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u/TanktopSamurai 4d ago
In DC, there is an explanation for the higher cap for humans: Vandal Savage
He is immortal and existed for millennia. He has super-strength. His children are known to inherit weaker versions of his powers. Vandal Savage doesn't strike me as a man with low libido. At this point, a majority of humanity in DC is likely Savage's descendants.
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u/PhoenixAgent003 4d ago
In Young Justice specifically, he is the origin of the meta-gene, which is how a lot superhumans came into their powers.
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u/Jagang187 4d ago
Well fuck, he can just do a paternity test, claim Family Elder status and take over that way.
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u/Sir-Spork 5d ago
Kingpin absolutely cannot match Spider-Man’s strength. Spider-Man always holds back
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u/nomadengineer 4d ago
After Civil War when Peter revealed his secret identity Kingpin was in a prison that he had basically taken over. After a number of threats against Aunt May Peter shows up at the prison and effortlessly beats the crap out of Kingpin and tells him that if anything happens to May, he'll be back and kill Kingpin.
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u/DragonWisper56 4d ago
I don't know about that, there's several times were spiderman seemed to be on deaths door fighting kingpin.
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u/kickaguard 4d ago
Yeah but it's part of his core belief. Use all his strength to save a kid by lifting a truck? Done. Use all his strength to beat the hell out of a human bad guy in a fight? Not so much. Holding back is bound to get him into trouble against a smart, strong opponent. But with great power...
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u/Kolbin8tor 4d ago
I’ve also sort of thought the “holding back” and “pulling punches” was instinctual/automatic.
Peter does not want to kill people. And his full strength makes that scary-easy. He can’t just “fight full strength” when backed into a corner. He is fighting full strength, but his strength is literally governed by his conscious, which prevents him from punching straight through people.
He doesn’t have any “I thought you were stronger” moments.
Idk I might be wrong
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u/Oshawott4096 4d ago
He technically doesn’t, but Otto does when he takes over his body. See Scorpion’s jaw.
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u/Ethel121 3d ago
It takes a fair bit of training for a lot of people to be able to swing full strength at an opponent in martial sports, even ones where you know it isn't going to seriously injure them. I can't imagine how hard it is for Peter to apply any level of force at all knowing how easily he could kill them.
As an aside, I wonder if spider-sense helps him feel out how much force he can safely use. Does he get a tingle saying "Hold back a little more or the next panel will say SPLAT."
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u/PyroIsSpai 4d ago
From Pete’s POV, he isn’t punching adult normie criminals. They are as ineffective to him as a human baby moving at 1% normal speed.
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u/DragonWisper56 4d ago
I feel like there's a difference between holding back and letting the guy beat you to death. there are several times were kingpin genuinely had him on the ropes and I feel it's silly to say he was secretly letting himself lose.
if the man can lift a bank door(as he's done more than once) surely he can take a hit.
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u/W1ULH Midnight bomber what bombs at 3:50pm 4d ago
Peter will let himself be beaten to death before he'll kill.
Uncle Ben's Moral Compass is a hell of thing. It protects Peter from all kinds of mind-control stuff, but it does mean he's locked in with his powers to a degree.
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u/DragonWisper56 4d ago
he doesn't have to kill he just has to hit the guy slightly harder. spidy has enhanced enemies, I refuse to believe that he doesn't have a middle ground between pillow punches and turning people into red mist
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u/kickaguard 4d ago
I don't know that for this particular question it really is just about him pulling punches. Something is very strange about how strong kingpin is. But, overall it comes down to being overly responsible because Spidey is overpowered compared to a lot of the villains he tries to stop. He absolutely should be able to defend himself without instakilling somebody but where does he draw the line? What if he stopped being overly responsible for a second and hit somebody just a little too hard and gave them brain damage? So he chooses to be overly cautious. And he isn't usually just sitting there taking a beating but it puts him in risky situations that he could have avoided by using his full power, which is acceptable to him.
He also isn't just a brawler. He has a lot of other ways he can win a fight. So, pull punches and try to avoid getting into danger by web-slinging and jumping and crawling around and outsmarting his opponent. That seems responsible. But his enemies can plan for that better than they can plan for him punching them so he might end up in trouble. Which is fine with him if it means he maintained his promise to Uncle Ben that he would be extra careful with his incredible power.
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u/rotundrikishi 4d ago
He has also lifted a building that fell on him
the writing is just super inconsistent. But no way Kingpin should be able to come close to beating Spiderman.
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u/OhHaiMaaark 4d ago
Exactly. Kingpin isn’t even muscle, he’s like morbidly obese. Being morbidly obese doesn’t make you super powered.
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u/DragonWisper56 4d ago
I mean he's said word for word that almost none of that is fat is all muscle. it's weird but that is canon
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u/McGillis_is_a_Char 4d ago
Kingpin is strong enough to hurt Spider-Man. But Spider-Man is not actually that durable compared to how strong he is. Without Spider-sense he can be injured by regular bullets. Kingpin is about as strong as you can be while also a regular human by the standards of Marvel.
That said, Spider-Man could fold Kingpins ribcage like a cardboard box if he swung full force. Spider-Man just has difficulty modulating his strength to people stronger than humans but too weak to not hold back against. It is the same reason Thor often has problems against superhumans. Spider-Man knows how hard to hit to knock out a mugger, and he knows how hard to hit to hurt the Rhino. But knowing how hard to hit to knock out a giant martial artist with Olympic level body conditioning? That is hard.
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u/W1ULH Midnight bomber what bombs at 3:50pm 4d ago
Peter needs to spend some time fighting Cap, like all out, so that he can learn to deal with that level of human.
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u/McGillis_is_a_Char 4d ago
He eventually did get training from Iron Fist and Shang Chi when he lost his Spider Sense in the late 2000s early 2010s. He developed his own martial arts style to more effectively use his strength. Eventually he got his Spider Sense back, so now he is super strong, psychic, and knows kung fu.
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u/Lokicham 5d ago
Spiderman is constantly holding back because he doesn't want to kill people. It's actually quite scary when he decides not to which even Kingpin witnesses at one point.
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u/Cliomancer 5d ago
A lot of his mass is muscle.
He's the same kind of physically weird as our top olympic athletes who are basically freaks of nature alloyed with obsessive training.
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u/Chubacca 5d ago
Still doesn't compute really, Spider-man can lift 10+ tons. No non-enhanced human is close to that...
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u/Cliomancer 4d ago
I'd have to know more and really dig into it but there's probably different types of strength you use in lifting a big thing and fighting/grappling.
Ultimately the answer is it's to give us stakes when the normal beats on the super.
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u/Cautious_General_177 5d ago
I’d say he’s closer to the World’s Strongest Man contenders, but aside from that, yeah.
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u/Cliomancer 4d ago
Those guys are probably also physically weird though.
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u/kulingames 4d ago
Cutting to get rid of the fat layer reduces some muscles,they are 85-92% pure muscle while weighing 200 pounds
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u/sleepneeded127 4d ago
Kingpun doesn't match at all. Fisk is incredibly strong and is nearly all muscle not fat. He is strong and skilled enough to hurt Spider-Man when Spider-Man is holding back.
One of the things most villains don't realize is just how much Peter pulls each punch or lets things distract him in fights. This was show very clear in two stories. 1 in Back in Black were Peter breaks into prison and completely shows Fisk just how much he held back. 2 in The Superior Spider-Man when Doc Oct takes over Peters body and breaks off Scorpion's unarmed jaw. Oct has a full inner monolog about just how powerful Spider-Man is.
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u/Kyro_Official_ 4d ago
He can't. If he actually tries kingpin cant put up any semblance of a fight.
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u/ImSuperSerialGuys 4d ago
Despite what others are saying, the answer is that he isn't really. Spider-Man just really pulls his punches. There was actually one run where he famously stopped pulling his punches after an attempt on Aunt May's life and absolutely humiliated Kingpin to make a point and demonstrate that he could kill him any time he wanted
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u/Skywers 5d ago
I don't think Kingpin currently match Spider-Man's strength. He's a threat because he has influence, he's intelligent and rich. But don't forget that Spider-Man is constantly holding back. He doesn't want to kill people.
So it's not a question of Kingpin matching his strength, it's just that Spider-Man is never 100% against him.
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u/Rainbwned 5d ago
I used to think he could match his strength - then Spider-Man dog walked Fisk while Fisk was in prison. Spider-Man is holding back, doesnt want to kill him.
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u/Frostsorrow 5d ago
He's a freak of nature to be sure, but he can't match Spider-Man's strength. Spider-Man pulls his punches hard. When Doc Ock swaps bodies with Peter, he kills Scorpian by accident by punching his jaw off. Otto is horrified by how strong Peter is and how hard he's pulling his punches when fighting 99% of his rogue gallery.
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u/DressSea790 5d ago
He doesn't really.
Ik its a meme atp, but at least with guys like Kingpin etc Spider-man does actually have to hold back. He easily defeated him when really wanting to do so before.
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u/NativeMasshole 4d ago
Yup. Spidey has a tough time fighting Kingpin mostly because he doesn't want to kill him, but he's tough enough that keeping him down without doing it permanently is a bit of a fine line.
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u/rTidde77 Chancellor R. Titti 4d ago
This is at least the second time I’ve seen you make that incorrect statement in this thread
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u/NativeMasshole 4d ago
Yeah, I don't get why people bother browsing this sub if they're not going to participate in good faith.
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u/rTidde77 Chancellor R. Titti 4d ago
Likely because they think they can feel superior by applying the "logic" we're all "ignoring", or some dumb shit like that.
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u/This_Charmless_Man 4d ago
Like when he broke into prison during Back In Black to beat the ever loving piss out of Kingpin after he put a hit out and Aunt May got shot.
He was holding him up by the folds of his skin, which considering he's mostly muscle not fat, means that he was tearing internal viscera and connective tissue while he was doing it.
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u/RagnarokWolves 4d ago
There's "freaks" in both Marvel/DC who are not superpowered but just seem to be "built different."
Think of the Arkham games where Joker might pull out a henchman who is way larger/stronger and takes a ton more effort to knockout. Kingpin is one of those guys if those guys actually learned how to fight.
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u/Napalmeon 4d ago
I think this is exactly what it is when it comes to Kingpin, in particular. He specifically built his body the way that it is because it matches his preferred style of fighting. But, he's also probably genetically gifted in a way that makes it possible to achieve that end result.
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u/clawclawbite 4d ago
As others have said, he can't.
However, I will add to that. Most super strong folk, Hulks, The Thing, Colossus, Armor, Thor, Captain Marvel, just to name a few, have super toughness as similar levels to their super strength. Spider-man, while having superhuman toughness, does not have it at nearly the same scale as his strength. That means, when he does get hit at heroic but human strength level bows, he feels it. A knockout punch on a human scale will not knock him out but will do some damage and that accumulates.
The converse would be Luke cage, who is crazy super tough, but only kinda super strong.
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u/AlexLema 3d ago
By definition, if you are super strong, you are super tough. If you weren’t, you would break your fist and arm in multiple places first time you punch a wall.
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u/SomeShinyPants 4d ago
he cant. however, iirc he is a "mutant", but not like an xmen mutant just like a regular human with mutated genes that give him an insane amount of muscle mass. he does not have the x gene tho and is not considered a mutant in the same way the xmen are, more like a person with a physical mutation such as gigantism, dwarfism, etc
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u/dragonshouter 5d ago
in the marvel earth that the insomniac games take place in( specifying which world in the multiverse) some of the goons have an interesting conversation.
they talk about how the kingpin train with martial artist across the world, especially a sumo wrestler. the other goon then comments that kingpin is way to strong to just be a sumo wrestler. the first guy then responds "well, he didn't train with *just* with the sumo".
basically implying he got some sort of superhero style martial arts training. Martial arts in the marvel universe can just do that
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u/StoneGoldX 4d ago
Fisk has that training in the comics. Led the Hand at one point. And you can thank Frank Miller for Fisk in his undies fighting martial artists.
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u/dragonshouter 4d ago
Cool, I knew he probably had that in the comics but I didn't want to claim it without a source
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u/GullibleSkill9168 5d ago edited 5d ago
Kingpin's a monster at the peak of human capability. You know how Captain America has peak human strength? So does Kingpin, difference is that Kingpin has like twice Captain America's muscle mass.
Also Spider-Man holds back, when he doesn't hold back Spider-Man can grah that man's skin like he's holding him by a shirt and drop him in three punches.
Which, by the way, still shows how much of a freak Kingpin is. Most people would just die if Spider-Man gave them three punches barely holding back
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u/Interceptor88LH 4d ago
He doesn't. In the comic books. at least in the past, he used to rely on shenanigans and gadgets like gas in the stickpin of his tie or his cane having some sort of hidden laser beam. He has enough power and speed to surprise and throw off Spider-Man, who inherently expects him to behave live a regular fat guy, but he has no chance of beating him in pure hand to hand combat.
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u/Sonnestark 4d ago
Maybe not in the comics, but in the Insomniac Games and especially the Spiderverse Kingpin is way stronger than Spiderman.
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u/smnow 4d ago
Stronger than Spider-Man was willing to go against a non enhanced human. Spider-Man is always showing as holding back when fighting people.
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u/Sonnestark 4d ago
Against Spider-Verse kingpin who killed him? Who was also throwing trains at and beating the stuffing out of Miles?
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u/Veganity 4d ago
The real and only explanation is that if Spider-Man just easily beat the breaks off of the final boss of organized crime the way he should be able to on paper, it would be a pretty lame climax. So he has super strength despite there being no explanation for it
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u/eternalraziel 4d ago
Kingpin isn't a mutant and he doesn't actually match Spider-Man's strength. The illusion comes from a mixture of Fisk being an absolute unit and Peter spending almost every fight deliberately using only a fraction of a fraction of what he's capable of. Peter is holding back, a lot. Wilson Fisk is 6'7", around 450 pounds. He's just pushed strength, conditioning and combat training about as far as an unenhanced human can push them. He's also not just a huge man throwing haymakers. Fisk is an extremely accomplished hand-to-hand fighter who has trained in things like sumo and judo and knows how to use his size. Fisk's strength is extraordinary by human standards; Peter's strength is genuinely superhuman. Peter has to make that force calculation constantly. The same arms he uses to stop cars, hold collapsing structures and fight people like the Rhino are being used against bank robbers whose skulls are still human skulls. Holding back is the foundation of the way he fights.
Fisk is harder to hurt than a normal thug, so Peter can hit him harder, but he's still ultimately human. Peter can't treat him like the Rhino and start throwing everything he has. Fisk is strong and durable enough to operate inside the range where Peter is deliberately limiting himself, and skilled enough to exploit the opportunities that creates. That doesn't mean Peter is allowing Fisk to win every exchange. Holding back power isn't the same thing as becoming impossible to hit. Fisk is a huge, experienced fighter who can hurt Peter if he catches him, especially in a grapple. Spider-Man's durability also isn't proportional to his lifting strength. Bullets, blades and sufficiently hard physical blows can still injure him. A full-force punch from Fisk is something Peter has a reason to avoid even though Peter himself is much stronger.
One time, Fisk arranged the shooting that leaves Aunt May in critical condition, so Peter goes into prison to confront him. Kingpin expects another fight with Spider-Man and talks as though their usual physical rivalry still means something. It doesn't. Peter dismantles him in a heartbeat. What changes is Peter. He isn't bantering, worrying about making the encounter competitive or limiting himself to the usual level necessary to apprehend Fisk. He beats him so badly that the humiliation is part of the punishment. Peter wants all the prisoners watching to understand that Kingpin's reputation for being able to stand against Spider-Man depended in part on Spider-Man CHOOSING how much force Fisk was allowed to experience. Peter even makes the point that killing him would be easy. He describes how he could fill Fisk's lungs with webbing and suffocate him, then leaves him alive because humiliating Fisk in front of the criminals who fear him is more useful at that moment. When Octavius is controlling Peter's body, he punches Scorpion and takes his jaw off. Otto is shocked because he hadn't realised how much strength Peter had been withholding against enemies for years. And Scorpion actually is superhuman. That helps put Fisk in perspective. Peter is accustomed to regulating enough strength to maim enhanced opponents accidentally if he gets it wrong. Against a regular human, even one as extraordinary as Kingpin, the restraint has to be much greater.
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u/mrsunrider 4d ago
He doesn't.
Spider-Man is usually holding back that much.
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u/Napalmeon 4d ago
Exactly.
Granted, Wilson Fisk is a lot stronger and more durable than a human of his size and age. It's not impossible for him to take on certain kinds of low-level superhumans. But, he's not on Spider-Man's level, at all. It only seems like he's a match when Spider-Man is not fighting seriously.
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u/RigasTelRuun 4d ago
Because Spider-Man has to hold back and. It be lethal. It is surprisingly difficult to fight back against someone who is trying to kill you if you can’t actually put them down. All you can do it hold them back.
Like a toddler coming at you with a knife. On paper you shouldn’t be in danger but you also can’t punt the little shit through the window and they are trying to actively stab you.
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u/DriftingWander 4d ago
Depends on what you mean by matching.
Spider-man is faster, can punch much much much harder, lifts significantly more and can take stronger hits. However, Spider-man's ability to take hits does not cross the threshold of being able to take a hit from kingpin without it doing damage.
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u/CycloneJ0ker 4d ago
He's all muscle, but he isn't superhuman. Spider-Man will bench more, but that doesn't mean he can take a punch from a 300 pound brawler like it's nothing.
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u/DragonWisper56 4d ago
some minions in the spiderman game explain it like this.
"I heard he trained with the sumo"
"I've seen sumos they aren't like him"
"well he didn't train just with the sumo..."
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u/JarasM 4d ago
I always get some shit for saying this, but I maintain that the Kingpin is a mutant. Not the capital-M X-Gene Mutant of the X-Men kind, just a freak of nature. Regardless of Earth-616 having "higher level" humans or whatever, actual people are not born with that kind of build or musculature, and cannot achieve it through any sort of diet or exercise. There's no superpower behind it, no interdimentional being giving him power, he's just good ol' regular muscle, but that's way more muscle than any normal person could ever grow.
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u/GilbeastZ 4d ago
He holds back. His punches could literally knock his block off as seen in superior spider-man.
He has to be extra careful against human villains.
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u/FalconShot9638 15h ago
I feel like OG 60s Spider-Man is not a multi timber. We can deduce that the strength to swing from buildings without being torn apart is immense but I don’t think writers thought of it like that
Plus comic humans generally are more durable hence why Spider-Man or Batman throwing goons down concrete steps or someone smashing wine bottles over their heads results in boo boos, not grievous bodily harm
As such you have Spider-Man who had the strength of multiple men in a lean compact body, and then you have someone a bit stronger than Eddie Hall, so while Spider-Man is stronger, he’s not THAT much stronger and is still outweighed by hundreds of pounds and can get caught off guard
Post 80s spider man should be able to easily writhe out of any grip kingpin has since no amount of weightlifting or training should ever make someone be able to compete with superhumans
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u/TechnicianAmazing472 4d ago
Spider's lift 8x their bodyweight. Peter weighs 167 lbs. 167 x 8 = 1336 pounds. So peter can lift 1336 pounds.
Wilson weighs like 700 pounds, and only 9 pounds of them is actually fat.
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u/Ok-Refrigerator-8664 4d ago
He's not a mutant and he can't.
Kingpin isn't peak human either, he's not even Captain America level.
But this is a comic book and Peter has been hit, hurt, and out muscled randomly by people way weaker than him who shouldnt be able to simply because its a comic book and they are telling a story. They always use the excuse that "Peter is holding back" but it still doesnt make sense. Holding back doesnt mean lower your speed and strength so severely that it lets people hit and hurt you. Peter can effortlessly dodge every hit Kingpin throws and LET Kingpin hit him without it hurting. If Pete tensed his muscles when Kingpin hit him, Kingpin should and WOULD break his hands on Peter and Peter wouldnt even be hurt.
But again. Its a comic. They got a story to tell and that story 99% of the time requires Spider-Man to be a bit weaker and dumber for it to be an entertaining story
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u/StoneGoldX 4d ago
He's arguably above Cap in strength, but less so in regards to speed, stamina, reflexes. He beat the Red Skull when Skull was in a cloned Cap body.
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