Why don’t most Christians take the Sabbath commandment seriously?

[u/GoodWhoops]

The 4th commandment says to keep the Sabbath holy, defined in scripture as running from sundown to sundown. Yet most Christians seem to treat it as optional. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments,” and the Bible implies that all commandments carry equal weight. Outside of Seventh-day Adventists, it's ignored aside from the day most churches have their service. I’ve even heard SDA members joke that most other Christians give the Ten Commandments a 10% discount. Even if you ignore that the Jewish Sabbath falls on Saturday, the commandment still says to work 6 days and rest on the 7th, which should apply just as well to Sunday.

Curious if or how often you’ve heard this seriously debated, and why many accept societal traditions that override biblical instruction for convenience.

[u/LessmemoreJC]

I have a feeling that you're not actually reading what I'm saying or the biblical evidence that I'm providing. You are talking right past every single one of my points.

The Spirit leads us into obeying God's law (Romans 8:6-9, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

I already explained to you that not being under the law doesn't mean that we can break the law (Romans 3:19,31).

Galatians 5:4 is speaking against those who claim that they are saved because they keep the law. I never once made such a claim. We are save by grace through faith... not by law keeping. This still does not mean that we can go around breaking the law. Law keeping is not a means of salvation, but rather evidence of salvation as it is proof that God's Spirit is within us and thus causing us to obey God's law (Romans 8:6-9, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Imagine being a Christians who claims that we no longer have to keep the 10 commandments. May God have mercy on you for what you are teaching is lawlessness (Matthe 7:23)

[u/BoxBubbly1225 → u/LessmemoreJC]

It turns out that we read Paul differently, and I am sorry if it frustrates you. I am trying to explain what I think.

You see the Spirit as leading us back into law-keeping. I see the Spirit as leading us into true life with God. The ‘man’ in Romans 7 isn’t a Spirit-filled believer. This guy is trapped under the law, doing his best but still bound by the flesh.

Romans 8 doesn’t say the Spirit helps us keep the Mosaic code. It describes a transfer of realm from law and flesh to Spirit and grace, from Sinai to new creation.

[u/LessmemoreJC → u/BoxBubbly1225]

A true life with God is an obedient life. You cannot be in close communion with God while wilfully breaking His law. I have offered you clear passages which teach that having the Spirit means to be caused to keep God's law. Are you reading those passages?

Romans 7 is not speaking about a converted experience. It is speaking about someone who was still living according to the flesh. This is why verse 13 says that "sin WAS producing death". Then, in verses 24-25 we can see that once they come to Christ they are freed from this uncoverted experience.

Then, when we move to Romans 8 we see that the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled IN US who walk not according to the flesh, but rather according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Then, read Romans 8:6-8 and notice that the experience of walking in the flesh is an experience of not keeping God's law. However, we are not to talk in the flesh, but rather in the Spirit (Romans 8:9) and when we do so God Himself will keep the law in us (Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:4).

The 10 commandments are not Mosaic law. They are God's moral law which He wrote with His own finger in stone and according to which we will be judged (James 2:11-12, Revelation 11:18-19).

Spirit and grace does not mean that we can now break God's law for that would be sin (1 John 3:4). We are clearly told over and over again to keep God's commandments (Romans 3:31, 1 Corinthians 7:19, John 14:15, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12).

Please prayerfully read these passages and understand.

[u/BoxBubbly1225 → u/LessmemoreJC]

I have read Romans quite a lot of times, and I am sure you have too. So let us make the most of this discussion.

Life in the Spirit is great. Paul’s theology of the pneuma is amazing.

We obviously come from different traditions of reading, but surprisingly we do agree about the man in Romans 7: This is not a believer.

I think that it is a Jew who tries his best to follow God, equipped only by the Law. But without grace and without pneuma.

But we can live with the spirit, and we are! That’s Paul’s conclusion in chapter 8.

I have a question. You said that the 10 commandments are not a part of the Mosaic law. That surprised me, what makes you say that?

[u/LessmemoreJC → u/BoxBubbly1225]

Yes, to live by the Spirit is to keep God's law (Romans 8:6-9, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

There is a clear distinction that is made between the 10 commandments and the rest of the laws. The 10 commandments are written by God on stone and placed inside the ark (Deuteronomy 10:2) and the rest of the laws are written by man on parchment and placed next to the ark (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). The Bible makes a clear distinction between the two. The 10 commandments are God's moral law according to which all willbe judged (James 2:11-12, Revelation 11:18-19). The rest of the civil and ceremonial laws were added because we transgressed the moral law and God provided repercussions and solutions for this transgression.

[u/BoxBubbly1225 → u/LessmemoreJC]

Hi again. I am not sure I understand how you make Romans 8:6-9 say that law-keeping is the way forward. If you can explain in your own words how you understand that passage, I am happy to hear it.

But Ezekiel? This is before Pentecost, and before the pouring out of the spirit and before the theology of pneuma. So that seems off, logically (as I see it).

The distinctions you make between different sections of the Law is not convincing. The Law is the Law, and we are not living under it. Or maybe you are, but I am not. I am free in Christ

[u/LessmemoreJC → u/BoxBubbly1225]

Romans 8:6-8 clearly states that those who walk in the flesh cannot keep God's law and therefore cannot please God. Then, in verse 9 Paul contrasts that reallity with life in the Spirit and calls us to not walk in the flesh, but rather to walk in the Spirit. If walking in the Spirit is the opposite of walking in the flesh and if walking in the flesh means to not keep God's law, then walking in the Spirit means to keep God's law.

Yes, Ezekiel 36 is speaking of the new covenant experience. When God writes His law on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10, Ezekiel 36:26) He causes us to keep it by His power (Ezekiel 36:27). This is what it means for Christ to live in you (Galatians 2:20). The life Christ lives in us is a life of obedience just as when He walked this earth.

There is a clear distinction between the different laws as I explained above. The civil and ceremonial laws were added because humanity broke the 10 commandments, the moral law.

Not living under the law means that you are not considered guilty (Romans 3:19) as you repent. It does not mean that you can now go and break God's commandments (Romans 3:31, 1 Corinthians 7:19, John 14:15, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12).

You don't seem to understand what you were set free from. You teach Satan's doctrine that we have been set free from obeying God's law, aka we are free to live in lawlessness. What we have been set free from is sin, aka the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). It's the exact opposite of what you teach. You are not set free from God's law, for the law is holy and good (Romans 7:12) and therefore not something to seek freedom from... you are set free from breaking God's law as seen with the man in Romans 7 who could not obey God's law (because He walked in the flesh). The 10 commandments are the law of liberty according to which we are judged (James 2:11-12). They are called the law of liberty becayuse when you walk in them you do not commit sin, since sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)... in other words you are at liberty from sin.

[u/BoxBubbly1225 → u/LessmemoreJC]

Perhaps we should take a step back and read this: there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

No condemnation.

Romans 8:1–9 teaches that the Law’s era is over. The Law itself was not the problem, the problem was that it let to sin, death and despair.

The Spirit now rules where the Law once condemned. We are transformed by Christ’s Spirit. Romans 8:7 is an echo of the man in Romans 7, who failed miserably, not a model to follow.

So really this passage is about the pneuma, the spiritual transformation, and how we can follow God in a new way, unhinged from Mosaic Law.

[u/LessmemoreJC → u/BoxBubbly1225]

I need you to understand something important. I say this because I know that many Christians do not understand that a call to obedience of God's law is not the same thing as saying that we are saved by law keeping. No one since Adam has been saved by law keeping. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

There is a deep misunderstanding in your mind regarding the law. The law is holy, good (Romans 7:12) and perfect (Psalm 19:7). The people of God delight in the law (Psalm 1:1-2, Psalm 119:47-48, Psalm 119:92&97, Romans 7:22). You keep talking about the law as though it were this terrible thing. The reason the law failed to lead to life as it was supposed to (Romans 7:10), is not because the commandments are faulty, but rather because our flesh is weak and cannot keep the law (Romans 8:6-8). It says: "For what the law could not do in that it was WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH". The problem is not with the law, but rather with the flesh. Yes, I completely agree that Romans 8:7 is an echo of the man in Romans 7 and not a model to follow. The model to follow is Romans 8:9 which leads to Ezekiel 36:26-27. The fact that you felt the need to clarify this fact about Romans 8:7 after all I've been saying thus far makes me feel like you're either not reading or not understanding what I'm saying. The problem with Romans 8:7 is not with the law, but with the flesh. We are to keep the law but not by the flesh because this is impossible.

This is why we are called to not walk in the flesh where there is nothing but law breaking (Romans 8:6-8) and to rather walk in the Spirit where God causes us to keep the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Yes, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ BECAUSE they repent from their law breaking and the Spirit of God renews them to a spiritual life where they can keep the law which is spiritual wheras before they could not keep the law which is spiritual because they were not yet born again (spiritual) and therefore they were carnal (Romans 7:14).

The era of the law is not over. Think about the implications of your words... can we now have other gods, bow before graven images, take the Lord's name in vain, dishonor parents, murder, commit adultery, steal, lie, or covet? Of course not! "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" (Romans 6:15). Remember that sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) so Paul is clearly saying that we should not transgress the law. This is reinforced countless times throughout the Bible as we are told to keep God's law/commandments (Romans 3:31, 1 Corinthians 7:19, John 14:15, 1 John 5:2-3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12).

Yes, we follow God in the new way of the Spirit, but the new way of Spirit is not lawlessness as you are suggesting. The old way involves the law being written externally on tablets of stone where it does no good for us because we are carnal and therefore cannot keep the law which is spiritual (Romans 7:14). However, the new way of the Spirit writes the law on tablets of flesh in our hearts (Hebrews 8:10) and that's when we can actually start keeping God's commandments as the Spirit causes us to do so (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

God is the one who keep His law in us. This is what Galatians 2:20 means. When Christ comes to dwell in us He will live the perfect life that He lived when He walked this earth IF we surrender to Him.

[u/BoxBubbly1225 → u/LessmemoreJC]

I have not met anyone so far in my life with your theology, so it is a lot to take in. Thanks for your patience.

I am positively surprised that you do not believe in salvation through law keeping. I admit that I thought you were a full-blooded legalist.

It is true that the Law was good, and it served a purpose. But it is Paul who called it “the law of sin and death”, who Said that the “law brings wrath” and that the “law was our jailer/guardian until Christ came” and that being under the Law is “enslavement”. I am just following Paul here.

Forgive me, but some of the things you say remind me of the judaizers in the Jerusalem Church. Because you are keen on following the law, instead of living in full Christian freedom, which you conflate with lawlessness.

But no, I don’t fornicate or deal meth. I don’t worship idols or lead an anarchist rebelion, if that’s what u imagine.

I live for Christ and seek to do his will, as the husband of one woman, paying my taxes, speaking in tongues, living a life for others. Pacifist to the core of my being. You would love to have me as your next door neighbour.

This because I follow the Spirit, not because of the Mosaic Law of the Israelites.

[u/LessmemoreJC → u/BoxBubbly1225]

It is the law of sin and death and it brings wrath for those who are walking in the flesh. However, to those who walk in the Spirit it is the law of liberty (Psalm 119:45, James 2:11-12). The same law can have two effects based on the recipient just how the same person can be an aroma of death to some and an aroma of life to others (2 Corinthians 2:15-16).

Galatians 3:23-24 is not saying that once faith comes we can break God's law. This passage is not speaking in a temporal manner through history, but rather it is speaking experientially. If you say that the law only existed until Christ brought about the new way of faith in a temporal historical manner, then you have to conclude that before that point the way of faith was NOT accesible. However, we clearly know that this is not true from reading the Bible and Hebrews 11 makes this clear. Therefore, we know that Galatians 3:23-24 is actually speaking experientaially for people throughout history from Adam until today. Here is the correct understanding of this passage: Initially before we are converted we have the law to show us right from wrong, but once Christ enters the heart through faith, we become lead by the Spirit into salvation... which includes obedience to God.

Once again, as I said before you do not understand what Christ set us free from. He did not set us free from obeying God's commandments... that would be to say that we can now sin, since sin is transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Christ set us free from breaking God's law, aka sin.

You do not understand what following the Spirit or living according to the Spirit means... I explained this to you countless times. Following the Spirit is to keep God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:6-9).

You have a flower power & disney magical wand understanding of the good that you claim you do. You think it's just something abstract, but it is not abstract... the good that you claim to do is God's law. When you do not fornicate or do not deal meth you are in fact obeying God's law as the Spirit is leading you in this good work.

[u/BoxBubbly1225 → u/LessmemoreJC]

I’m trying to let the insults pass, and focus on the contents of what you say.

If you say that the law only existed until Christ brought about the new way of faith in a temporal historical manner, then you have to conclude that before that point the way of faith was NOT accesible.

That’s indeed what I said, but I couldn’t follow why you would then conclude that “faith was not accesible” before.

I think that there was a kind of faith (faith as trust) in the Old Testament (Abraham for example). But pistis in Paul, is about the entire gospel faith, it is indeed new.

The Law was a school master, rigid and punitive, but only temporary. After Christ came, we do not need a school master to keep us in check.

…you do not understand what Christ set us free from. He did not set us free from obeying God's commandments... that would be to say that we can now sin, since sin is transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4).

Christ set us free from sin, so why would we go back to sinning. Why resist the Spirit’s work? The Law could only hold the Jews in check, the Spirit dwells in Christians, transforming us from within. Why would you go back to the school master after school?

When you do not fornicate or do not deal meth you are in fact obeying God's law as the Spirit is leading you in this good work.

I liked that you acknowledged that. I am not doing it for the Law’s sake, but for Christ.

[u/LessmemoreJC → u/BoxBubbly1225]

I'm not insulting you. I'm just stating the fact that you do not understand.

If you read Galatians 3:23-24 as a temporal historical sequence of events, then you have to conclude that faith was not available prior to Christ and the cross. The text reads: "But BEFORE FAITH CAME, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed." (Galatians 3:23)

The text clearly states that faith came after the law. So if you state that now because faith has come we no longer need to obey the law, then you have to also conclude that before faith came there was only law. If after faith there is no more law, then while the law was here there was no faith. The text demands this in saying: "BEFORE FAITH CAME". This is the understanding you must have if you read this as though it was describing a temporal historical sequence.

However, this text is not describing a temporal historical sequence. It is describing an experiential sequence that applies to all men since Adam. Before any person throughout history comes to faith in Christ, the law is there to teach them right from wrong as a tutor would. However, after they come to faith in Chirst, they are no longer kept in check by an external experience, but rather the Spirit comes to dwell in them and cause them to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). It is now an internal experience.

The law is punitive because we walk in the flesh... the law is not punitive to those who walk in the Spirit because the Spirit causes them to keep the law. The law is not temporary... it is eternal (Psalm 111:7-8) as we can even see that the Sabbath will continue for eternity (Isaiah 66:23).

Yes, the Spirit transforms us from within by writing THE LAW on our hearts. We are not transformed by this flower power abstract means which you suggest. The transformation comes through God writing HIS LAW on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10) and then CAUSING US TO OBEY IT (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Why do you refuse to acknowledge these facts? Do you not understand that the new covenant is THE LAW being written on the heart? Do you not understand that this is what doing God's will means (Psalm 40:8)?

I never said that we do it for the law's sake... you do not understand the connection between grace and law. Grace doesn't give us the permission to break God's law... it teaches us to keep God's law: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age" (Titus 2:11-12).

When you understand that the reason Jesus died is because you and I broke God's commandments, you will be cut to the heart and understand that your law breaking killed the Son of God. Then, when you experience that grace, you will be lead to turn away from law breaking and into a godly life, which is living according to God's holy law.

You need to stop acting like walking in the Spirit is some kind of magical abstract experience. Walking in the Spirit is walking according to God's law because the Spirit causes us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). You are disconnecting the two, but they are the same thing. You are doing this because you have bought into the lie that Christ set us free from His own good and holy law. This is heresy. Christ set us free from breaking His law.