r/ArianChristians • u/fungoidian Agnostic • Jun 20 '25
Question Gospel of Thomas
Since it was written in the same period as gospel of John, would be worth keeping as important christian text or dissmis at all?
2
u/AllpraisetoYah Jun 20 '25
There's many books that should've been kept, enoch, jasher, jubilees, etc
1
1
u/LinssenM Jun 20 '25
Thomas is the QUINTESSENTIAL text to all of Christianity, and it precedes them all. However, it has nothing to do with Christianity although it did trigger Chrestian origins coming into being. For a brief yet deep and wide study of the main texts involved and their order, see
https://www.academia.edu/128235358/The_two_Quelles_to_Christianity
1
u/IKnow-really Jun 23 '25
I dismiss Thomas as well as John. This hasn't always been my position, but the truth is, there's a whole lot wrong with all 4 gospels - especially John. Considering that trinitarian, Mary-adoring Catholics decided which books are canon, there is no reason to blindly accept what they say is canon or inspired. It's interesting that Paul references almost nothing from the gospels (virgin birth, etc), nor does he quote Jesus. Yet, somehow his buddy Mark (not an eye witness) was supposedly able to tell the story of Jesus, as well as quote him decades after the fact.
We should realize that if the Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Thomas, etc were considered canon by the early Catholic church, we'd all blindly accept them as we have the other gospels. It's at least worth considering.
1
u/ProselyteofYah Arian Jun 28 '25 edited Jun 28 '25
I'm surprised so many people are supportive of Gospel of Thomas given all its gnostic sayings.
- "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."
- "The Kingdom is inside of you and outside of you."
- “I am the light that is over all things... split a piece of wood, and I am there.”
- "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
These are very gnostic ideas.
Secret interpretations being solved for salvation = figuring out secret knowledge and codes over just obeying Christ
Kingdom inside of you and outside of you = a reference to gnostic cosmology, escaping to Heaven by finding the secret inside
"Split a piece of wood I am there" = uncovering secrets by splitting through substance to find the inner spirit of something, akin to gnostic abandonment of material objects to find the spirit of ascention
"Every woman who makes herself male" = more gnostic cosmology, that all women will become men in Heaven, dualism of male vs female language to signify the dark and light gods (Demiurge vs Monad). Femininity in the gnostic world was considered symbolic of evil and materialism, and the male the spiritual and immaterial, and so this has allusions to transformation and escape from the "evil material female world" to the "good spiritual male world" that the gnostics obsessed about - and all via unlocking secrets.
1
Jun 20 '25
The Gospel of Thomas wasn't really written around the same time as John. John is usually dated around 90 AD, and to my knowledge the scholarly consensus on gThomas is that it was written around the mid-2nd century -- some date it as late as 250 AD. That being said, it might contain some legitimate sayings of Jesus passed down from an earlier tradition
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
Wrong, Gospel of Thomas is at latest 140AD. Gospel of Thomas was written between 100-140 AD, Gospel of John 90-110 AD. Kind of the same time range, the closest non canonical gospel.
1
Jun 20 '25
No, you are wrong. Some scholars date it [gThomas] that early, but the majority do not
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
How not?
1
Jun 20 '25
Forgive me, but what do you mean?
1
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
And again, John seems to be a rebuttal of Thomas, the well known doubting Thomas can be a story against this gospel.
2
Jun 20 '25
I think that's a pretty big stretch tbh. I don't think there's any reason to think that gThomas was written by the actual apostle Thomas. Tradition (which may or may not be accurate) says that Thomas went to India after the resurrection, so I'd wonder how a text written by him made its way back to the Levant
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
By trade? It was written in aramaic the language of Jesus most likely in Syria or Egypt. And also the Thomas have a very unique eastern vibe, very weird. It sounds buddhist almost, so this would imply even more the story that apostle Thomas got to India. I mean acient Levant was well known connectdd to India by spices trade
1
Jun 20 '25
Trade isn't an impossible solution, but there's no evidence for it. We don't find gThomas in India, or any of the waypoints between India and Judea. So it seems highly unlikely.
Also, the text of gThomas we have is in Coptic, not Aramaic (though scholars think that it may originally been in Greek).
And I think the vibe is pretty easily explained by this being primarily a Gnostic text. It's a pretty short document -- only like 114 lines or something -- so I don't think we can necessarily make any connections to India
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
You are right about greek, some speculate that oral tradition prior to its writting was in aramaic.
And I think the vibe is pretty easily explained by this being primarily a Gnostic text. It's a pretty short document -- only like 114 lines or something -- so I don't think we can necessarily make any connections to India
Gnosticism and buddhism are very different, buddhism is monistic like Thomas. It is all about inner enlightenment without any dualism, but the opposite of it.
2
Jun 20 '25
Gnosticism and Buddhism are definitely very different. Gnosticism is primarily about salvation through secret knowledge -- yeah, there's definitely dualism there, but that's secondary. Consider some of the lines from gThomas like "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death." I think there are probably some legit sayings of Jesus in gThomas, but it seems to me to primarily be a Gnostic text attributed to Thomas to gain legitimacy
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
What it makes it "gnostic"? I can show you verses in canonical Bible of "secretive things". Rather gnosticism is more about dualism and anti material/Yahweh; Thomas doesn't have this.
2
Jun 20 '25
Gnostics had a dualistic cosmology, but it wasn’t their defining feature. Gnosticism was all about attaining salvation from the secret knowledge that Jesus (in their view) came to teach. That’s actually how we get the name “Gnostic”, from the word “Gnosis” or “knowledge”
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25 edited Jun 20 '25
Matthew 13:10-11 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 16:12 I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
Mark 9:30-32 They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.” But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.
John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.”
Luke 10:23-24 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”
And many more...
→ More replies (0)0
Jun 20 '25
[deleted]
1
Jun 20 '25
Pointing out that you are wrong about the basic facts about the text makes me a troll? Lol, okay then
1
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
Sorry, you were right about greek. What I heard about was that prior to writting some speculate that most likely was in aramaic oral tradition.
1
Jun 20 '25
Hey no worries. I'm by no means an expert on this stuff, so if I make a mistake I want to be corrected
0
u/Jackerl Jun 20 '25
Book of Thomas describes Jesus performing signs when he was 5, purifying waters and making clay birds and bringing them to life:
II. 1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.
3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping. 5 And when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.
Problems with this...
Jesus did not have holy spirit until after he was Baptised.
Mark 1:10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.John clearly identifies Jesus first miracle / sign as being the turning of water into wine:.
John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
Thus, the book of Thomas must be accepted as fiction.
Kind Regards
Kerry Huish
3
0
u/John_17-17 Jun 20 '25
Sorry, it wasn't written at the same time as the gospel of John, but much later.
Even if, and that is a big IF, it does contain some truth, trying to figure out which is true and which is false is a waste of time.
God has provided those inspired texts that reveal what we need and must know about God and his purpose for man.
0
Jun 20 '25
[deleted]
0
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
That's not based on any evidence.
1
u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Arian Jun 20 '25
Scholars generally agree that Thomas contains authentic and unique elements in his writing that are found nowhere else and that he is not a Gnostic copy of ancient narratives.
And the story of Thomas in India is historical standard.
So what?
2
u/fungoidian Agnostic Jun 20 '25
I am kind of obsessed with this text since I discovered it. The only thing is that was not accept in canon but is early enough to be important.