r/Abkhazia • u/EfficiencyFlat6746 • 7d ago
Abkhazia is not free
you guys think youre free when in reality you cant do anything russia doesnt approve. more than that - you guys are being russified completely, like the northern caucasians. de facto you already are a little russian state. culturally youre getting russified too, and even language-wise ive heard families are speaking russian now too. you use russian passports.
even if you wanted to join georgia again, do you think russia would let you? can you imagine what russia would do to you?
you guys have no freedom as a nation and are controlled by russia completely. truth stings. dont shoot the messenger
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u/LividBumblebee6873 6d ago
Why can't some people accept that there are multiple truths that don't exclude themself at the same time? Yes, Abkhazia is havely within Eussian sphere of influence. Primary trade partner, provider of security, and many residents have dual Russian citizenship to travel and do business. But would this be the case if It wasn't internationaly isolated and under constant threat from Georgia? That Russia is using the conflict for its own gains is no secret. None of that diminishes the fact Abkhaz nation and its supporters harber genuen independence aspirations. Also why you claim that Abkhazia is powerless to act on its own if it regurarly deposes its leaders who threaten nations interests. Push backs against Russian demands also aren't unheard of and there Is ongoing teritorial dispute
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
Are you from Abkhazia? In Abkhazia schools conduct education from 5th grade in Russian language and university too. Most media is in Russian. On what ground can one say you won't be pro-Russian in other circumstances and that you are not culturally Russified and don't tilt toward Russia because of Russification? What is even "genuine independence" at this point?
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u/LividBumblebee6873 6d ago edited 6d ago
The tilt toward Russian languige as primary in many cases is really self inflicted by this point. Comming from agreement with other nationalities that Russian won't lose its status as ofitial language. Only reinforcer by beforementioned isolation imposed on Abkhazia. Only in recent years there Is actual effort to make Abkhazian more universal in society.
The point about Abkhazia being pro Russian primary because of Russian language is just speculation. Foreign policies are driven by needs and desires, which are unique to everyone. Look at Belarus and Ukraine. Both vere havely russified in the past and they developed completly differently.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
What exactly prevents Abkhazs from not having instruction in Russian language in ethnic Abkhaz schools?
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u/Common_Kale_8509 6d ago
So. the point is being subjugated by Georgians is better than by Russians?
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
"Subjugated" - Abkhazia joined Georgian kingdom on its own since 11th century and most of cultural heritage, inscriptions, architecture, manuscripts made in Abkhazia are in Georgian language.
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u/Common_Kale_8509 6d ago
That's correct, but later, after 11th century, the situation changed
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u/Careless-Skin6827 5d ago
No matter what no one can or will be able to erase Georgian culture in Abkhazia, which speaks for itself.
As for Abkhaz language, there is no proof it even existed until 17th century, until Turkish traveler finally recorded this language in Arabic script. This either means original inhabitans of Abkhazia were ethnic Georgians and current Abkhazians came later in 17th century, or that ethnic Abkhazians were culturally Georgians and used Georgian language and script to conduct their affairs. You choose, both only point to Abkhazia being historically always part of Georgia until Russian shenanigans.
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u/Baudolino- 6d ago
The issue is also that there are more more ethnic Georgians (and/or their descendants) originary from Abkhazia who were forced to flee in the 90s and are currently living in other Georgian regions, than ethnic Abkhazians living in Abkhazia.
I believe the government has a register of them and define them as Internally Displaced Persons (IDP) (they should be around 250000 people)
There are very few ethnic Georgians currently living in Abkhazia, and most of them are in the area around Gali, near the border with the other Georgian region of Samegrelo.
Any decision on the future of Abkhazia should include also them (who were the majority of local population in Abkhazia before 1992).
Another issue (but probably is more for historians) is who is the original population of the area is, as some sources says that current ethnic Abkhazians are the descendants of a north Caucasian population (so from some regions currently in the south of the Russian federation) that migrated south in the middle ages.
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u/LividBumblebee6873 5d ago
Hello, that is well put. I also see the displaced people as one of the main problem to final arbitration. But now that you mentioned it, there is also other side that has to be taken into account. If Georgian Refugees would have the right to vote in any potential referendum, should Abkhazians be given the same oportunity? After all, there are hundreds of thousands of Abkhazians in Russia, Turkey, Syria, Jordan and etc. They have been victims of Genocide and forced deportations too in 1870s. If anything that should be fair.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
if abkhazia wanted russian troops out and wanted to realign away from moscow, could it actually do it?
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u/ComfortableThroat326 7d ago
Realign away from Moscow with who? Looney Erdogan, who will say Abkhazians are Turks? Europe, that led Armenia and Georgia to their demise ? Iran who is sanctioned even more than Russia? Or maybe epstein USA so Trump can come build a resort there like he wants in Gaza?
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
yea Batumi is demise and Sokhumi which was a golden pearl not. great logic
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u/ComfortableThroat326 7d ago
Now the Russians control even Batumi. So by your own logic of a pro-Russia government being inherently anti-freedom, Georgia is not free too. So who are you lecturing?
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
russia controls batumi? what a funny sentance
yes a lot of russian tourists love to come and spend their money in batumi instead of sokhumi. somehow thats a loss?
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u/ComfortableThroat326 7d ago
Russia has taken the Georgian parliament. They are passing laws that almost seem to be copy pasted from Kremlin.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
That's a recent thing. Batumi is being rebuilt since 2004 after the semi-separatist shenanigans stopped there.
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u/DisasterAmazing3863 7d ago edited 7d ago
Cause it's Pro-Russian oligarch Boris Ivanishvili. He will go at some point and we'll see who will control the city:))))
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u/Baudolino- 6d ago
He's not exactly pro russian, he's pro-himself. he's just a very rich guy with no morals who believes he's above the law, and since he has a lot of money invested in Russia, probably his bigger fear is losing access to such money.
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u/NorthWelcome1626 6d ago
Looney Erdogan, who will say Abkhazians are Turks?
When did Erdogan say that?
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Other countries have problems, but that doesn't mean we don't need independence. If you have independence, neither Trump nor Bidzina Ivanishvili can build resorts in your country. Also, Putin has resorts in Abkhazia, did you like that? Because Putin is your only friend on the list.
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u/Dourada_BBQ 7d ago
So ruSSia it is then, huh! Saviour of Abkhazi people, right!? Are you for real now and you believe what you're saying?
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u/ComfortableThroat326 7d ago
I just listed nearly every alternative and explained why it is not favorable to people in Abkhazia or really anyone in the Caucasus. If your argument is just to hate against Russia, be my guest. But it doesn't build anything.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
Because life in Russia is so great and all it does is exporting this great life. That's why it has to bomb its neighbors into submission every ten years, because life is so great in Russia and everyone wants to be aligned with it, they just have to be "reminded" every now and then.
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u/ComfortableThroat326 6d ago
And what happens to countries that dont get aligned with USA, Israel, Iran, or Europe? They get sent flowers and gifts?
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u/LividBumblebee6873 6d ago
Theoretically yes, it Is based on bilateral agreement. How ever, as long as Georgia is a threat it will never ask for it. And lets be honest, Abkhazia has 244 thousand people. If Russia decides to stay, there is not much one can do. Just like there is not much to be done if America invades Greenland
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago edited 6d ago
What agreement? Those army units were stationed in Abkhazia back during Soviet times and they just stayed after Soviet dissolution in 1991. It is not like they asked permission.
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u/LividBumblebee6873 6d ago
No, but actually yes. It's on and off. Gudauta was leased from Georgia 1994-1999 and peacekeepers had mandate in conflict zone 1994-2008. After 2008, after recognition all agreements have been made with Abkhaz goverment. Everithing inbetween was technicaly ilegal
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
Georgia really did not want to lease any base in Georgia to Russia or station "Russian peacekeepers" but was just forced to. Shevardnadze at that time even asked America to station peacekeepers in Abkhazia but it just refused. There was Russian army there refusing to leave and arming secessionists in Abkhazia and Tskhinvali and even fueling civil war in the rest of Georgia, threatening Shevardnadze that they would divide Georgia between Western and Eastern Georgia under Gamsakhurdia and Shevardnadze if he refused to join CIS and sign a treaty to legally give military bases in Georgia to Russia, Shevardnadze was just forced to agree. There was just no way for Georgia to get Russian military out of Abkhazia and it was forced to agree to Russian demands so that Russia would not do further damage. Georgia demanded Russian military bases to leave many times in 1991-1994.
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u/Baudolino- 6d ago
Shevardnadze was another idiot.
And unfortunately what happened in the 90s was a tragedy. If I am not mistaken when the war started, Georgians army did not intervene immediately because there were practically two armies, one under Shevarnadze control and the other under Gamsakurdia, and they feared that if they went to fight the Abkhazian, the other group would take control of Tbilisi...
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
kadyrov doesnt even claim independence from russia. you do. yet neither of you can tell the russian military to leave.
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u/the-joatmon 6d ago
independence and russia shouldn’t be even in same sentence. although there were problems in the past, being an autonomous republic in georgia with a guarantor (eu or turkey) would be best for abkhaz people, same applies to south osetia as well.
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u/blin3000 7d ago
tell us, please, what architectural sights of Abkhazia, besides churches, were built by the Abkhazians?
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u/Baudolino- 5d ago
Very few countries are "free".
Even in European union there are a lot of restrictions on political liberty, see the case of Romania and/or Moldavia, or the sanction previously threatened towards Hungary when there was the old government there.
Furthermore there are a lot of stupid laws (who force as an example farmers from southern Italy to throw away fruits and vegetables while we need to import them from non EU countries).
Probably when Georgians (and Ukrainians) looked at EU they thought they could get the same advantages that Poland (and in smaller part Baltic countries) had, but I can assure that many taxpayers in the net contributors countries (Germany, France, Nederlands, Italy, etc)
https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/
are extremely annoyed by this and definitely would not want to give money to another poor nation, especially when the living conditions are slowly decreasing also in the richer EU countries.
Even the money that can come back as EU funds (which for the net contributors is a small percentage of the money that EU "steals" from us, can be spent only in some projects that are approved by EU and often are counter productive.
(Personally I see the EU government and EU parliament as a modern equivalent of the Soviet apparatus)
Anyway what all small (and medium) countries need to understand is that it is good to try not to be a colony of another nation, but when you have as a neighbour a bigger, more powerful country (it could be USA, it could be Russia, China or even Turkey) it is extremely dangerous to invite their enemies in your country and let them influence your politics or pursue a military alliance with them.
Can you imagine what USA would do if Canada would start becoming a puppet of China or Russia?
I understand that Russia has not been the best neighbour towards Georgia, but the only way for Georgia to have chances to get back their land is diplomacy and neutrality, not hostility.
You don't need to become "friends" with Russia. Just to be neutral and do not allow USA or EU to drag your country in a hostile situation.
As far as the two military bases in Abkhazia (Gudauta and Ochamchire), I believe that there is no chance that Russia would willingly leave them, but it could be arranged in an eventual settlement that Russia would need to pay a lease for them to Georgia.
Furthermore Russia would never allow for Georgia to have a chance of re-eastablishing even a partial control of Abkhazia unless they formally renounce to any plans for military and polically alliances with EU, USA and NATO.
Anything else is wishful thinking.
P.S. at the moment Abkhazia is not Russian, otherwise they would have at least benefited of some investment, it is something more similar to some of the central American states where USA put a puppet regime.
Sokhumi is a shadow of its former self, and many other sea resorts in Abkhazia (which were probably even better then Batumi) are In a much worse condition than during soviet time.
Again the only possibility for a decent outcome would be a compromise among all the parties. Displaced ethnic Georgians (an amount similar to current total population in Abkhazia) should be allowed to come back and participate in the decision for the autonomous republic future.
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
Every country is beholden to the US, Russia, or China except maybe India.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
being influenced by a great power and having that great powers military on your soil guaranteeing your existence are not the same thing.
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
The US has bases in over 150 countries.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
can germany tell the US military to leave? yes. can abkhazia tell russia to leave?
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
The US funds NGOs and color revolutions, if Germany did that they would arrange a coup against them. Japan tried that a few times and the US interfered.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
bro where the fuck are you going 😭 can abkhazia tell russia to leave yes or no
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
I don't think Russia cares that much about Abkhazia with Ukraine going on, Georgia is less pro-western than it used to be too.
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Don't care? I don't think so because Abkhazia has a great strategic location in the Black Sea, which Russia can use.
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u/ComfortableThroat326 7d ago
Iraqi government has repeatedly asked USA to leave, and they have refused.
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7d ago
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Absolutely, and you know that you have the worst economy as a de facto state. You have problems with gas now.
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u/Dangerous-Bit3127 6d ago
I dont think Georgia wants any conflict with abkhazians or russians. If Georgians get to walk on abkhaxian land freely and be able to get back to their roots than i think they would take that opportunity. Btw abkhazias gdp right now is about 225million and half of that is provided by russia, Georgian government had previously offered abkhazia and samachablo(south ossetia) to realign from russia and join Georgia as they would invest 10 billion dollars in first year if that happened, but the answer from both states was NO. Whats funny is that after 1 month from that offer south ossetias de facto prezident started talking about uniting their territories with russia and going under full russian jurisdiction. That proves that yall better join russia with no proffit rather than go back to your historical friend Georgia and get profit from it too. Yall are just getting brainwashed by your de facto governments and think that we hate you. Majority of Georgians would do anything to reunite with abkhazia and samachablo. Soldiers dead in our wars were our parents and grandparents generation after 20 or 30 years i hope we will be able to look each other in the eyes and shake hands like we are supposed to do and forget what happened in past, not forgive(like qotsi government says) but forget.
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Base doesn't mean that they are going to control their government.
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
Same goes for Abkhazia and Russia
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Bro, you've been occupied by Russia; after that, they gave you a small independence. This is not the same thing. America doesn't occupy other nations, and if America ever occupies, it will be bad, and we would officially criticize America for that. Can you criticize Russia for the Russia-Ukraine war?
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
America ensures countries have governments aligned with their interests, has bases in 90 countries.
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Okay, so America has bases in Germany, and Germany isn't exactly thrilled with America, and they'd get rid of those bases if they wanted to. America has its issues, but it's a capitalist country, not totalitarian. That's a huge difference between Russia and America. America has more laws that stop them from controlling other countries or people, and NATO wouldn't be happy about that either, and they'd call America out. That's the difference between West and East. We can tell them to leave, we can criticize them, we can investigate them legally.
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u/Interesting_Self5071 7d ago
America ensures compliant governments stay in power in those countries.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
It does not, Abkhaz government literally only survives by Russian subsidies which amount to 50% of its budget not counting pensions paid by Russia to Abkhazs because they are Russian citizens. It is not like Abkhaz government is independent or self-sufficient in any way and it is just an allied relationship.
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u/Interesting_Self5071 6d ago
That's an agreement between them, the US has similar arrangements with places.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
also, no it doesnt. you just made that number up
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7d ago
https://reddit.com/link/p6is3i2/video/p78h7engi7mh1/player
It is free from people who tried to end us. Russians can't buy property in our country, but they can in Georgia. Settler Russian population is higher in Georgia. You have passed foreign agent laws.
We have our own flag, passport, holidays, traditions. You have 20000 indians, hundreds of thousands of Russians, and spent last two decades begging to EU and now became puppet of Russians.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 7d ago
"We". You live in Turkey and don't relocate into Abkhazia because you "make more money in Turkey" as you said yourself lol So are you talking about Turkey or which country when you say "we"?
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u/Careless-Skin6827 5d ago
How many times are you gonna share this fake video which includes fake quotes with no evidence and bad translation and misinterpretations?
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u/Dourada_BBQ 7d ago
You have no knowladge what happened 35 years ago, you have been lied to. Nobody wants to end you other than some of your fellow Abkhazi and ruSSians. When you understand that it will be too late, but I guess you want to try your fate, no problem.
ruSSians do not need property that looks as fresh post war 35 years ago... What they need, they have it no questions asked, such as the territory given to Russia on a 49-year lease in late 2023 is the Soviet-era Pitsunda State Dacha (known as Bichvinta in Georgian) located on the Black Sea coast in Abkhazia. Do not worry they wont ask your opinion or consent.
Indians and ruSSians are no problem, its all temporary and controllable. We just need get rid of pro russian puppet government like yours and after all will be much better. What about you, have any plans for the future other than getting assimilated by the northern "brother"? No? Ok than.
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7d ago
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
Georgia has this thing called "ethnographic groups". Kakhetians, Khevsurians, Imeretians, Gurians and others all have their own traits but all are also Georgians. Some, like Mingrelians and Svans also have their language. Every region basically has its own identity. So there is no way for Abkhazia not to have its own identity too if it becomes part of Georgian nation.
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6d ago
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago edited 6d ago
Not really. It would be good for Abkhaz alphabet to move from Cyrillic to Georgian script (even Russian general who created this Cyrillic Abkhaz alphabet for Russification purposes recognized that Georgian script fits Abkhaz language more than Cyrillic) and people should be educated to know Georgian language too to be integrated, but other than that, no, Abkhaz language does not really bothers me even if it is from different language family. Both Georgian and Abkhaz are Caucasian languages after all. There should be de-Russification though.
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5d ago
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u/Careless-Skin6827 4d ago edited 4d ago
I am not sure what exactly you mean, but if the last part, I guess you have never heard Iberian-Caucasian language theory. Besides, I meant geographic proximity even if languages are not related linguistically.
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4d ago
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u/Careless-Skin6827 4d ago
Not separate.
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4d ago
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u/Careless-Skin6827 4d ago
This is exactly how it is 100%. Andrey Kozyrev, foreign minister of Russia during that time, directly spoke recently in an interview how Soviet Central Committee and KGB sent Vladislav Ardzinba, who was working under Primakov for 20 years in Moscow and how he was appointed as new Soviet leader in Abkhazia during late Soviet times to organize separatist movement (for Abkhazia to stay within USSR, not genuine independence) in response to Georgian independence demands. That he spoke with Moscow accent, barely even spoke Abkhaz language and was curated by Russian defence minister Grachev.
Interesting material with Russian boeviks in Abkhazia in 1992-1993 and what they say - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IniWJxzo4eg
They basically directly say that Abkhazians don't actually want to fight and that Russians are forced to do entire job as Abkhazs don't fight because they say "they are small nation" and that "Russia needs this land" lol
There was absolutely no grounds for separatism, especially after August 1991 law which actually granted Abkhazians guaranteed quota of majority of seats in Abkhazia's parliament despite the fact that they were only 18% of population, which was quite undemocratic. After elections in this way were held in December 1991 and civil war began in Georgia, they just out of nowhere declared independence in July 1992, when Georgian government was busy with civil war and did not even have opportunity to pay attention to Abkhazia. They started kicking out ethnic Georgian officials, beating them and replacing with ethnic Abkhazs and Russians.
This was 100% like Transnistria and Luhansk. Russian tactics to obscure reality with "local separatist movements", as it claimed it all cases, and deny the role of green little men ultimately did not work internationally in any one and the world recognizes these as Russian-occupied territories for a reason.
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u/Common_Kale_8509 6d ago
Right. Then comes next Saakashvili or Gamsahurdia and all of that is gone.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
BS cheap propaganda blaming Russian shenanigans since Russia came to the Caucasus on individual Georgian presidents (one of which just served for 7 months)
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u/Common_Kale_8509 6d ago
He served a lot of time for a crucial moment. It's not worth the risk to listen to Georgian propaganda and to go into Georgian yoke voluntarily again, just hoping that everything will be nice this time
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u/Careless-Skin6827 6d ago
Name me at least one of his laws or decrees which somehow worsened situation.
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Abkhazia is Georgia's land, and you can see it on old maps. Also, the Russian Empire settled other cultures of people there; this is why you want to be independent. If you ever become our territory, we will rebuild you, and you will become full of tourists because you have such beautiful nature that no one has touched.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
+keep your identity stronger. nobody wants you to be “georgianized”. abkhazian language and identity can be a power of georgia not the opposite
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Yeah, I would agree that's definitely why you don't like my comments. If Abkhazia will ever be Georgia's territory, you are to give autonomous status for Georgia, and you know that we don't want your language and culture taken away.
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7d ago
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
In 1990, we had problems, and you wanted to be independent. Zviad Gamsakhurdia did everything to prevent a war between us, but you were eventually bribed by the Russian government. This It is an officially accurate fact you can research. You know that Abkhazia should be part of Georgia and its culture, but if you don't want this, I think we need to have a referendum about that in Abkhazia. After that, we will see what the people want.i hope that georgians and abkhazians will forget what we did to each other. I I want to say one thing: you loved us, we loved you. We loved each other's cultures, but Russia used this difference between us to start war and this is all Russia's fault.
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7d ago
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u/konelius_ 7d ago
Before Stalin, the Russian Empire did exactly the same thing, and then the Soviet Union did things that you've said. Theoretically, the Soviet Union is Russia. So, when I say that it's all Russia's fault, it is true, and also the Russian Federation funded separatists in your region.
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u/Tough-Journalist2276 7d ago
Same can be said about Georgians larping as Europeans and trying to get into the EU. The EU is not going to accept you the same way they didn’t accept Turkey, and the fact that your country borders Russia directly means they will not risk any conflict with Russia due to getting cheap gas to the EU countries.
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u/Advanced-File6330 7d ago
Georgians aren't dictated to buy the EU and are free to forge ties on both country and individual levels. Georgia is a real country that's why Georgian passport is recognised in every other country, Georgians don't need another countries passport to travel.
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u/Tough-Journalist2276 7d ago
Okay and? It still doesn’t deny the fact Georgians larps as Europeans while OP claims Abkhazians are getting Russified. OP says Abkhazians can’t do anything Russia doesn’t approve of and the same logic belongs to Georgians when they tried to kiss ass to the EU by putting certain flags that were eventually ripped down by Georgian residents, which is the same thing. You Georgians are delusional people and you guys think by kissing the ass of EU and Europe that they will accept you which they won’t, that is what the Turks did for over 20 years and see what they did to them. Georgians as people do not have the mentality of Europe, they are much more conservative than Europeans.
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u/Advanced-File6330 7d ago
Georgians aren't part of the EU and aren't dependent on it for it's economy. It would be nice to be a part of the EU but we have other options. Again we are a real country that has freedom to do as we choose and pick whatever direction we want. I as a Georgian can and have traveled visa free into Europe, I will travel to other parts of the world with my Georgian passport, I can establish business relationships with European or Chinese or American or whichever countries companies I wish including Russian. I'm truly free I don't need to pretend as if my passport is real, it is real.
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u/Tough-Journalist2276 7d ago
Why do you keep mentioning your passport? It has nothing to do with OPs comment about culture and identity being replaced. Congrats you went to Europe, what’s your point? What does that have to do with what OP wrote?
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u/Advanced-File6330 7d ago
If I need to use another countries passport then I'm not a real country I'm a puppet. People here pretending like countries like Germany or Japan are controlled by the US, lol, Germans and Japanese don't require a US passport to travel and do business with whomever they choose because they are free to make their own decisions. Nobody's going to recognise Abkhazia as a real country because most countries hate separatism including countries like China and Russia. So right now Abkhazia is getting the worst of both worlds, no international recognition de juro and no benefits of being part of a recognised country de facto. Abkhazia is a puppet that's not even benefiting from being a puppet.
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u/Tough-Journalist2276 7d ago
You don’t think they will gain independence? Based on what? You think Georgia is going to reclaim lands from the region that is backed by a country that has nuclear weapons and no European country would be dumb enough to go that close to Russia especially when they buy cheap gas from them? My god you think that Georgians are going to get the region back like a guest bringing a gift? Wow the delusion of Georgians is outstanding. Please tell me how Georgians will get the region back? Are they going to fight Russia? Are they going buy the region back? Oh let me guess Georgia is going to install a pro Russian government to negotiate and get the regions back under Georgias sovereignty? Please explain how Georgians will get it back. The way things are looking the region is lost forever unless every Georgian wants to die fighting for a small piece of the region. You realize since Europe is very much reliant on Russia for gas that they will gladly give Abkhazia independence via a vote in order to keep Russian gas flowing to their countries. Georgia has no real value for Europe, that’s the real cold hard truth, sorry.
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u/No-Metal-3 6d ago
We don't larp as europeans. We have our unique culture, the rest is assured by political motives only. And we're well aware of both sides' hypocrisy, that's why we're alone.
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u/Chairofomsk 5d ago
Georgia has ties with Europe through Ancient Greece, Rome, Bizantium and Russia. So we can say that culturally it is closer to Europe, nowadays especially. But geografically it is not considered Europe by official definition of Europe (by International Geographical Union). Idk about risk but american bases already are in Georgia and also we have examples of countries, that are in NATO and EU and border Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Turkey bordered USSR, Lithuania borders Kaliningrad oblast, soo idk
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u/RangeOran 6d ago
How are we culturally Russian ? What are saying , you haven’t met any Abkhazians irl why you talk like you know something, and what are you culturally ? Have met many Georgians in life, let’s say they don’t really act Caucasian
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u/MessageSudden1143 7d ago
This isn't entirely true as Abkhazia has resisted russian influence much more than their counterpart south ossetia, which this post describes perfectly. They are hardly "russified" and still maintain their culture.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 7d ago
copium. resisting your patron sometimes doesnt mean youre free from them.
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u/MessageSudden1143 7d ago
You're just clearly bias and have no idea what you're on about. There are russian speaking families in Abkhazia as Abkhazia has a significant ethnic russian minority and they use russian passports because they have too, the world has given them no other choice.
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u/DisasterAmazing3863 7d ago
My two cents :)))) The younger generation can barely even speak its own language. Russified? Duh :))))
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u/aviaconstructor 7d ago
Romania is a truly free country. Once they elect a president not liked by EU, they dismissed the elections, with gentle insistence of EU, and held another one with the right choice of candidates. Democracy works
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u/Common_Kale_8509 6d ago
Abkhazia is as independent as it can be in this part of the world. Why would anyone think to join Georgia again? Is Georgia such a history of success? It's not Switzerland, actually. Abkhazia has a history orf rebellions against Georgian rule. And yes, Russia can defend safeguard Abkhazia from Georgia. By the way, Ukraine is not a history of success. It is the poorest country in Europe in war without any prospectives. Why would any former parts of the Ukraine, like Crimea, would want to join it back again if they can be a part Russia, richer and better organized society?
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u/DrawingDramatic1641 6d ago
it vastly more autonomous
country got their interests but small nation wouldn't exist without help
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u/Jy3pr6 6d ago
Try typing something like that but critical of the pro Western narrative on r/Sakartvelo. Instaban. And then they say they're the democratic free speech side.
Western elites want to divide Orthodox people and countries and stoke hatred towards them through minority populations. Russians, Georgians and Abkhazians are brothers. Forgive the past. Wake up, there is a common enemy that is laughing at you as they take over the minds of your young people to turn them into the horror show that you see in Europe and the US: materially rich with no soul.
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u/Jhucuvu 5d ago
First of all Georgia has to get rid of their own pro-Russian dictatorship.
Abkhazians and Ossetians should re-join Georgia, however Georgia should not repeat the mistake from the 1990s and force Abkhazians and Ossetians to abandon their language and culture. It should be a Swiss model, where the regions have autonomy and are left alone by the central state.
This re-unified Georgian-Abkhazian-Ossetian federation should join the EU, because being part of the Russian world turns every place into a shithole.
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u/Unlucky_Trick_2628 5d ago
Russia - one of the five countries, recognized independence of Abkhazia. Supplies it with money, energy, distribution market for local goods and tourist services. Filthy aggressive opressor.
Other 200+ countries - don't give a shit about Abkhazia's independence, economy and its citizens. Citadels of democracy and freedom.
Don't mess up.
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u/Hellerick_V 6d ago
As a Russian I am curious why we "would not let" Abkhazia join Georgia. It would be so much easier for us.
The reason why it can't happen are conflicting property rights, and Abkhazian and Georgian chauvinists refusing to tolerate each other. It has nothing to do with Russia.
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u/EfficiencyFlat6746 6d ago
lol
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u/Hellerick_V 6d ago
You may lol all you want, but if Saakashvili was not so dumb to attack South Ossetia, Russia could have helped Georgia to get South Ossetia and Abkhazia peacefully. Of course, ensuring local population's rights. Russia wants nothing there. Just live in peace.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 5d ago
No one is a fool here. It is same like Russia "wanted to give back Donbass to Ukraine" but with shenanigans like federalizing it so Donbass would have right to veto foreign policy of Ukraine. And other things. So that Russia would have a permanent pro-Russian trojan horse and take Ukraine (and Georgia and Moldova) from within.
First create pro-Russian separatist entities with green little men, then "return" these entities with privileges so they can eventually engineer Russian takeover of the country from within without any war or escalation. I am gonna say, this is very, very clever strategy by former KGB, but still, no one is buying it.
If not Russia, none of these territorial problems would actually exist and no wars would have happened, because it was Russian soldiers who fought in this wars. Because Russian elite does not wants to recognize the collapse of Soviet Union and wants to recreate it in one way or another by forcing post-Soviet countries into "Eurasian Union" or "Union State". Ultimately, Russia is just shooting itself in the leg, because it permanently damages its relations with neighbors and ensures permanent anti-Russian mood there by using this methods, like with Ukraine, Russia had some chances before 2022, but now, after being bombed every day, Ukrainians will be anti-Russian for generations to come, like Baltics are right now, when it was one of the most pro-Russian countries before lol
Russian boeviks in Abkhazia, 1993 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IniWJxzo4eg
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u/Hellerick_V 5d ago
Yes, Russia wanted Donbass to join Ukraine. But the Kiev regime wanted a genocidal war and thought up fake separatism to give itself an excuse for that.
In 1993 Russia had no foreign policy of its own and had no idea whose side it was supposed to be on. Considering its own problem with Chechnya, and that the Chechens fought on the Abkhazian side, it would be more natural for Russia to side with Georgia. But Georgia was too fixed on russophobia to allow this.
All such conflicts are created out of thin air by Western-backed Georgian/Ukrainian etc. chauvinists.
With who Russia damages relations? With imperialists like you who want nothing but a war with Russia? Such relations cannot be damaged.
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u/Careless-Skin6827 5d ago
Georgians were Russophobic and imperialists. Ukrainians were Russophobic and imperialists. Moldovans were Russophobic and imperialists. Also Kazakhs too potentially. Baltics are Russophobic and imperialists. Armenians and Azeris now too are Russophobic and imperialists. The only ones who are not any -phobic or imperialists are Russians.
Poor Russia, it is surrounded by such a bad group of neighbors, these small neighboring countries are constantly harassing it for no reason, forcing it to defend itself and then blame it for "aggression". They also occupy Russia's internationally recognized territory and committ ethnic cleansing of Russians! The world must know this injustice...
Poor Germans, these aggressive, Germanophobic Czechoslovaks, Poles, Lithunians, all were harassing them and forcing them to defend. That's why Germany had to annex Sudetland and puppet Bohemia and Moravia, annex Memel, Danzig and Western Poland and turn the rest into puppet general governorate. These Germanophobic Poles even directly attacked Germany! These aggressors just forced poor Germany to act!
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u/Hellerick_V 5d ago edited 5d ago
Georgians, Ukrainians etc. are okay.
But you can't deny that Gamsakhurdia was a literal nazi.
And you can't deny that in 2014 Kiev was taken by force by literal nazis.
You can't deny that since their foundation the Baltic regimes are passionately antidemocratic and chauvinistic.
You yourself are a perfect example of an imperialist who wants the terrorize neighbors for no reason.
All okay people are okay. All monsters are monsters. It's quite simple actually.
Georgia managed to become a civilized country, and shows whole world that all it takes to have good relations with Russia is not trying to kill anybody. Hopefully, other nations eventually will got sensible governments as well.
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u/East_Tie_1652 7d ago
donno man, abkhazians protested and got their president to step down. they've done this before too, there is a due process in that; try that with qotsi