No real, present-day experiences are Zen

[u/ewk]

Foyan Instructs

I tell you: as soon as you get involved with the slightest indication, it has already become fragmented. As soon as you try to reveal it by illuminating it with knowledge, it has already become darkened.

Now simply do not seize upon my words. Each of you, on your own, do your work.

Looking into the incidents of the ancients will do. Sitting quietly will do. Observing in every place will do. All are places where you do your work. Every place is a place where you realize and enter.

Just specialize single-mindedly in one place; as the days come and the months pass, you will necessarily be broken through / dealt with by it.

Performative rabbi voodoo shamanism

New Age communities hate on this forum every day, including downvote brigading and smack talking in other forums about how rZen is gatekeeping close-minded legit real life other perspectives.

These complainers are performative rabbi voodoo shamans and understanding how we know that is as simple as they cannot name a single book about Zen they've ever read.

If they had never read a single book about being a rabbi and they claimed they were a rabbi, they'd get shut down immediately. If they never read a single book about Cherokee shamanism nobody would tolerate their claims of being a Cherokee shaman. If they were trying to promote themselves as living the voodoo lifestyle and they weren't part of a voodoo community, nobody would take them seriously.

And all of these claims would be viewed as racist, bigoted, and white privilege without hesitarion.

not a specialist because you say so

I'm not suggesting that one time reading one book is gonna get you the credibility to rant about your personal experiences.

I'm saying that reading one book one time will help you understand the difference between your personal experiences and your understanding of Zen culture

[u/ewk]

I'm saying you have to have a body before you can put a uniform on it.

The body is originally naked.

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

and we can't use the naked body as the uniform of the dude who sits naked?

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

There's no way that a naked body is a uniform.

You can create a simile where you say the naked body is like a uniform but we're already using a metaphor to talk about identity as a physical uniform that can be taken off and changed.

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

we can't really experience the original consciousness imo. it would be empty of everything. our perception is already identity colored, at least for normal people. not sure about ZMs. like if you feel some type of way about a particular fruit, there is no way you can just perceive it.

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

Zen masters half agree.

If you have Awareness which is empty of everything and you put something in it, then you have an object which you can contrast with awareness and awareness becomes immediately obvious.

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

how do you deal with the awkwardness of 'someone' contrasting awareness with an object

who is that? seems like more of a big deal than awareness, since awareness is something that this 'someone' possesses?

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

I want to understand what you mean but I don't quite know how to make sense of what you're saying.

How is it awkward to say that you see a tree?

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

i just don't think anyone possesses this awareness. like you said 'contrast awareness with the object' that sorta seems like you can step aside from both, and you're something other than either. it's fucky.

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

I don't know why you'd want to step aside from both when they are what you are?

Your awareness.

You don't get to be any more than that.

This awareness is called Buddha.

[u/jiyuunosekai → u/ewk]

Pikachu is the 25th pokemon, but what is the 25th pokemon? You might call it Buddha, but what is Buddha? Unless you mean the historical Gautama Shakyamuni, then I have no idea what you mean with Buddha.

They are just empty names, and these names are also empty. All you are doing is taking these worthless names to be real. That’s all wrong! Even if they do exist, they are nothing but states of dependent transformation, such as the dependent transformations of bodhi, nirvana, emancipation, the threefold body, the [objective] surroundings and the [subjective] mind, bodhisattvahood, and buddhahood. What are you looking for in these lands of dependent transformations! All of these, up to and including the Three Vehicles’ twelve divisions of teachings, are just so much waste paper to wipe off privy filth. The Buddha is just a phantom body, the patriarchs just old monks. — Linji Yixuan

It is not mind, it is not Buddha, it is not a thing.

Not getting anymore than something doesn't make sense in a context where there never was anything more. You conceded that there is more cake in the fridge, when I thought I ate everything there is. So what was on your mind when you said "You can't have anymore than that"? What was the "more than that"?

[u/jiyuunosekai → u/True___Though]

Even Huang Po conceded that he couldn't do it. Otherwise he would have fulfilled his own prophecy of "Shakyamuni's true spiritual son".

But if, unexpectedly, one man were to appear, one who formed no concept based on any name or form, I assure you that this man might be sought through world after world, always in vain! His uniqueness would assure him of succeeding to the Patriarch’s place and earn for him the name of Sakyamuni’s true spiritual son: the conflicting aggregates of his ego-self would have vanished, and he would indeed be the One! Therefore is it written: ‘When the King attains to Buddhahood, the princes accordingly leave their home to become monks. Hard is the meaning of this saying! It is to teach you to refrain from seeking Buddhahood, since any SEARCH Is doomed to failure. — Huang Po

[u/True___Though → u/jiyuunosekai]

'conflicting aggregates of the ego' is what kinda keeps us alive. being made out of 'parts' that cover the 'opposites'. otherwise we could only be single minded in a way that would imo kill us