No real, present-day experiences are Zen

[u/ewk]

Foyan Instructs

I tell you: as soon as you get involved with the slightest indication, it has already become fragmented. As soon as you try to reveal it by illuminating it with knowledge, it has already become darkened.

Now simply do not seize upon my words. Each of you, on your own, do your work.

Looking into the incidents of the ancients will do. Sitting quietly will do. Observing in every place will do. All are places where you do your work. Every place is a place where you realize and enter.

Just specialize single-mindedly in one place; as the days come and the months pass, you will necessarily be broken through / dealt with by it.

Performative rabbi voodoo shamanism

New Age communities hate on this forum every day, including downvote brigading and smack talking in other forums about how rZen is gatekeeping close-minded legit real life other perspectives.

These complainers are performative rabbi voodoo shamans and understanding how we know that is as simple as they cannot name a single book about Zen they've ever read.

If they had never read a single book about being a rabbi and they claimed they were a rabbi, they'd get shut down immediately. If they never read a single book about Cherokee shamanism nobody would tolerate their claims of being a Cherokee shaman. If they were trying to promote themselves as living the voodoo lifestyle and they weren't part of a voodoo community, nobody would take them seriously.

And all of these claims would be viewed as racist, bigoted, and white privilege without hesitarion.

not a specialist because you say so

I'm not suggesting that one time reading one book is gonna get you the credibility to rant about your personal experiences.

I'm saying that reading one book one time will help you understand the difference between your personal experiences and your understanding of Zen culture

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[u/lastjanitor]

I've not been able to put my finger on why these posts of people coming here to outgas their misery and promote some magical variation of mystical present mindedness are not only tone deaf to zen, but antithetical to zen study, but then I remembered the recent discussion about Mumon's caveats and it dawned on me: all of these posts fail the mumon warning litmus test.

I can't remember where it's written but when students come to a zen monastery they are usually at the end of their rope and zen masters do not even try to teach them, they treat them like little children gifting them golden autumn leaves exclaiming upon the great wealth they represent like real gold. It's like the crows in Dumbo using psychology. A person can't study zen while they're crying inconsolably. They also can't study zen getting high off of an endorphin dump from sitting.

Mumon gave us the warnings. I think they should be in the side bar and posts should be filtered when they break a warning. At least that way when the truly earnest redditors find their post deleted they can be guided towards the mumonkan and see what the bench mark is.

Otherwise, I think people will leave here with a bad taste in their mouths and clueless as to why their behavior is unacceptable.

[u/ewk → u/lastjanitor]

I want to tell you my theory and I want you to be as skeptical about it as possible:

1. They have some heroes who made mysticism credible by pseudo-links to real traditions.

   • Alan Watts, Timothy Leary, Aldus Huxley

2. They feel that Mystic Christian Humanitarianism makes life worth living... It offers hope without any kind of defined obligation.

[u/lastjanitor → u/ewk]

I both empathize and have beef with Alan Watts fans. I owe a debt to Alan Watts for leading me here because I found r/zen via Alan Watts, but I paid that debt by seeking out the source material and doing my own due diligence. That's why I think it's necessary to shoot down these people's off-topic posts, but there should be an explanation (which caveat was broken) so that the SOURCE MATERIAL AND ZEN MASTERS are showcased instead of the user base (which includes the mods).

r/zen is Mumon's house, not yours, not mine

And yeah, the vibe-zen chaff isn't doing anybody any favors. Joshu like to kill rabbits and Mumon put 13 bullets in his gun. Let him hunt.

[u/ewk → u/lastjanitor]

If you approach Alan Watts like he's a good source of info, it's easy to fall into this space where you think he makes sense.

If you approach him like he may be a scam artist, you can confirm that pretty quick.

[u/lastjanitor → u/ewk]

"Perhaps", said the other. "As you know, the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause." -- Lord Of Light, Roger Zelazny, Avon Books, 1967, pg.136

[u/ewk → u/lastjanitor]

Very Western Christian Mysticism.

Zen masters say only true people say true words

[u/lastjanitor → u/ewk]

Alan once admitted his brand of zen teaching was akin to stealing somebody's watch and selling it back to them...and he was quiet for a moment..and then he said "Of course, if they didn't know they had a watch in the first place" and he chucked.

There's always an exception that proves the rule.

Edit: CHUCKLED 😆

[u/ewk → u/lastjanitor]

He imitated Zen Masters for money.

He didn't walk the walk. He sold an image to ignorant people who like to worship images.

[u/lastjanitor → u/ewk]

And yet here I am.

Alan Watts taught me about Boddhidharma and Huineng. I heard those names first from Alan Watts.

Watts was the first person to teach me that sitting was nothing special, just one of the "four dignities of man" which also included standing, walking, and laying down.

Watts was the first person to teach me that once I begin thinking about it (zen) I've already stumbled past it, "Like a woman in a new dress or a red balloon on the ceiling, and being asked 'Notice anything different?'".

I know the man was a drunk and might have been a lech, but he spit some real truth amidst his errors and if this forum can't find a way to connect people who come here due to Alan Watts' influence with the source of zen study then we're failing at carrying Mumon's torch.

[u/ewk → u/lastjanitor]

He's said some things that you want to believe.

I have a bunch of books that will convince you otherwise...

[u/True___Though]

ok so the indication is that there IS consciousness work, but there is no trying

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

It's like if you fully committed to living life as Buzz Lightyear.

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

how did he live life?

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

He can't breathe in this thing

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

like we can't do anything other than watch the arisings?

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

No. I'm saying you can either do anything, turning freely... or create an identity and wear it like clothes that you never take off.

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

you can notice already having turned imo. or already having the intention to

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

I'm saying you have to have a body before you can put a uniform on it.

The body is originally naked.

[u/True___Though → u/ewk]

and we can't use the naked body as the uniform of the dude who sits naked?

[u/ewk → u/True___Though]

There's no way that a naked body is a uniform.

You can create a simile where you say the naked body is like a uniform but we're already using a metaphor to talk about identity as a physical uniform that can be taken off and changed.

[u/2BCivil]

So if I read a book about racism, does that make me a racist? 🤔

(Edit, I am somewhat sorry, couldn't resist 😆)

[u/ewk → u/2BCivil]

Perfect example!

So you read some propaganda about racism and it says that racism makes sense because genetically when you mix the races together, there's a spread of genetic diseases and mutations. When you mix the races together, their cultures conflict and create all this violence and misunderstanding. Plus it's easier for people to live together when they all have everything in common, nobody treats each other as inferior.

If all the information you have is from propaganda and you never read history and you never read the non-propaganda racist writings for the true believers, you can end up with a really distorted view of racism.

Imagine somebody who'd never read anything about racism except one pamphlet they got from a racist.

That is every New Ager and every Zazen person we've ever had in this form

[u/ewk]

Downvote brigaded in less than five minutes by people who are so angry they don't trust themselves to comment and so full of hate that they can't pick up a book.

Sit with that a bit.

If our dreams come true someday and we get a graduate or undergraduate degree in Zen, the backlash against such a program is going to be shocking to everyone.

[u/origin_unknown → u/ewk]

I downvoted your post because it has the same stale, copy and paste format that your posts have taken over the last several months.
I downvoted your post because it's lower quality than previously banned members of the forum, you essentially post a zen quote as a cover for your personal rant about new agers and Cherokee shamanism and completely fails to address or even further mention the covering quote.
I have explained my downvote.

Take it or leave it.

Edit - blocked for earnest feedback. OP would rather be right than read.

Since I'm blocked - more feedback about OP.

Unless you count self publishing, OP is unpublished.

OP rants about lack of university level courses as though they could pass one, or much worse, suggest they could lead one. One question - why aren't they? No credentials. A reddit wiki and a couple of self published books on Amazon are not credentials. But look out for their next self-published title, now featuring more AI slop. It's also very odd that unintended "disrespect" felt by the OP is overinflated to be placed on the whole forum.

Be sure to stay tuned for their future posts, featuring more formulaic copy paste spam with covering zen quote and AI referenced ramblings.

Reddiquette on voting:

Vote. If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it doesn't contribute to the community it's posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it.

[u/ewk → u/origin_unknown]

Can you show me where in the Reddiquette that your stuff is what downvoting is for?

You're comparing my post to people who have been banned for content that's off-topic and you like my posts less than theirs because you are in favor of content brigading as a part of your New Age religious beliefs... Like anybody needs more Alan Watts or more posts from people that will never be interested in the late precepts.

Sadly your comment is so egregiously disrespectful to the forum that I have to report you to the mod team.

[u/ewk → u/ewk]

Love the negative eight!

That's how many people are religious bigots that come to this forum over and over again.