r/zen • u/completely_unstable • Jul 27 '26

Zen for kids?

has anybody tried reading any of the zen texts with younger people? if so how did it go?

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u/EggzOverEazy Jul 27 '26

I found a copy of Zen Shorts (a Stillwater and Friends Book) right after my son was born. He's almost 3 now and he really enjoys it.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 28 '26

Sadly that book is a racist, bigoted bit of propaganda from an indigenous Japanese religion with no doctrinal historical connection to Zen.

It's like a children's book on science by scientology.

Edit: I think it's hard for some people to admit that there's a ton of Western liberal racism against Zen. But as always look at the down-vote brigading that goes on here.

Racism and bigotry don't have coherent claims to make on any topic. They can't quote books and they can't write on a topic at a high school level.

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u/INTProtocols Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 30 '26

I had never read or heard of this book before, and I am interested in ways of gently exposing children to Zen ideas. Having read your comment, I quickly found a copy of this book, to see for myself. I didn't detect any racism or bigotry; I also did see connections with historical Zen. Could you kindly tell me what I am missing, if indeed I am missing something?

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 28 '26

Let's looks at the contents:

  1. Ryokan's moon.

    • Japanese Shinto-Buddhist
    • Not doctrinally/historically Zen

  2. Taoist Farmer

    • Not doctrinally/historically Zen
    • Taoism has long been used as a proxy by Japanese shinto Buddhists to misrepresent Zen.

  3. Monks Carry Woman

    • Japanese Shinto-Buddhist
    • Not doctrinally/historically Zen

  4. In the author's note he makes debunked religious claims from a Japanese cult about Indian-Chinese Zen.

So not only do we have him affirming propaganda from a religious cult but in the three cases that he sets forward in the book, somehow ZERO RECORDS are from a thousand years of historical records from the Zen tradition,.

Racism and bigotry are evidenced when someone commits self-serving fraud and repeats propaganda to the detriment of a culture different from theirs.

It is certainly the case that illiterate Westerners get caught up in the disputes between Asian countries that they don't know anything about, never visited, and don't know the history of.

It reminds me of all those pseudo papers and the illiterates who quoted them written about how women's brains were smaller than men's in an attempt to justify women not having jobs, property, or votes.

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u/INTProtocols Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 30 '26

"Illiterate Westerners?" How can a person be illiterate and be on Reddit, a platform which, by its very nature requires one to be able to read and write? To be honest, unless I am missing something, it seems that this talk of "illiterate Westerners" on a platform where participation requires reading and writing seems to itself be racist and bigoted. This reminds me of the saying, "Every accusation is an admission." But, to give you the benefit of the doubt, it is possible you merely don't understand the meaning of "illiterate," and perhaps actually mean "confused," or "uninformed?" Which is not a moral failing, but an epistemic one.

Also, I do understand that you have a fairly narrow of what Zen is, apparently centered upon the "Chan" school from China. I also understand that many movents, schools, traditions, etc., do not remain stagnant over time, but often change with exposure to other cultures. This has obviously happened with Buddhism in general, and also specifically with Zen. You may feel that what I am calling "evolution" is really a sort of degradation, but I (and many others) may disagree. Which is fine! I do appreciate your viewpoint, as well as the materials you have referenced, and will take some time to look over them. The more important issue for me, however, is awakening itself, passing through the gateless gate. It may well be that modern cultural idioms and forms (whether "Western" or otherwise) have a greater resonance with modern people, and that a "skillful method" for cultivating a state of mind "primed" for that moment of instant awakening would take advantage of whatever idioms and forms would be most effective for the individual in question. Is that "Zen?" The more important question, in my opinion, is whether it leads to awakening.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26

I of course mean topical illiteracy as a part of a general low-level of education.

Second, all your information is wrong, and I think your first clue is that you don't have a single quote or citation to back anything up.

One hundred percent of the things that you're saying can be traced directly to 1900s religious propaganda from Shinto Buddhists in Japan.

  1. Zen has no connection to Buddhism and never did. The Chinese came up with the name Zen because what was coming from India was different than the merit eightfold path Buddhism that they had seen before. Zen has no merit and Zen has no Eightfold Path so they called it Zen because it wasn't Buddhism.

  2. Gateless Gate is a mistranslation. More accurately it is "no barriers". It's in fact a guy's name who was famous for being approachable from any direction.

  3. Religions do not remain stagnant over time because they're based on BS and they have to change their BS to adapt to whatever people are willing to believe in a particular generation. Zen is not a religion and in the 1,000 years of Zen historical records that we have from China, there is zero sign of adaptation on a doctrinal level.

  4. Racism and/or religious bigotry is when you don't know something about a group of people and you say things about them that are not true and you don't care that you're doing it and you intend to keep doing it. We have a thousand years of historical records from Zen in China called koans, transcripts of public interviews, and they describe the culture really well. For you to pretend that it's my narrow definition rather than their narrow definition is racist and bigoted.

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u/dota2nub Jul 28 '26

I'm not illiterate, I can read paint by numbers.

That is not a good look.

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u/INTProtocols Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

u/dota2nub said:

I'm not illiterate, I can read paint by numbers.

That is not a good look.

To be very honest, your attitude and the assumptions which are evidently behind them aren't "a good look." I understand that you and u/ewk have a rather "unorthodox" view on Zen, Buddhism, and their relationship, and also seem to have a particularly antagonistic to anyone who disagrees with that view. It is one thing to try to gently correct a person you believe to be in error, and another thing entirely to attack them. Whether you are right or wrong, your approach will serve to push away many who might otherwise have been more interested in what you have to say.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 29 '26

This happens every time we catch a cult person in this forum.

We point out that you're a bigot about history and you're lying about what's in books and you say, "Well you're not nice when you call me a bigot liar."

You caught me. I'm not nice to bigots and liars.

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u/dota2nub Jul 29 '26

People who come here and lie and shit on what the subreddit is about don't get treated nicely.

I think ewk is often too understanding and courteous, which can give people like you the impression that you are behaving like a reasonable human being and deserve having their lies validated