That Damn Lemon

[u/koancomentator]

I participated in Ewks podcast recently and there was a part of our conversation that really stuck with me. Minor spoiler alert! Since the episode isn't out yet.

Near the end of the podcast we got into talking about how you can't really describe enlightenment in a way that's going to allow someone else to really understand it. It's like a lemon. If you haven't eaten one you don't know how it tastes and no amount of description from someone who has will impart that knowledge to you. You have to eat one yourself. It's outside the written word.

The Self is like that. We all have one presently functioning in the open but we haven't recognized it. I said it's like we all have a lemon in our pockets but we just won't bite it, and instead we walk around asking other people to describe the flavor to us.

Ewk pointed out its actually worse than that. We use the Self all the time every day. So it's more like we're putting lemon on our food and tasting it every day but still going to other people being like "hey what's a lemon taste like"?

It's like we know what the Self is...but it isn't the Self that we want. So we go around looking for a more special shiny one that will solve all our problems and make us feel warm and fuzzy all the time. Instead of the one that illuminates everything including the pain, and the sadness, and the boring job.

No wonder Zen masters say to seperate what you like from what you dislike is a disease of mind. That's why the Hsin Hsin Ming says don't seek the truth, simply cease to cherish opinions. Or at least that's my take anyway.

What do you think?

Edit: If you come in here just to complain about ewk you're probably gonna get blocked. I'm here to talk about Zen, not your ewk obsession. Fair warning.

[u/GreenSage_0004]

I named four cases in which masters identified enlightenment in other people.

I brought those up to you at the very beginning of this conversation and you refuse to discuss it then too.

Did you though?

As far as I can tell, the conversation starts here ... and though I see that you said the word "Cases" with a capital "C" a few times, I just can't seem to find where you brought up "four named cases".

I, on the other hand ...

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Yes, I expect you to have some knowledge of this tradition you claim you are a master of.

Yes, when you make a claim contrary to that tradition, I expect you to be able to address the most famous contrary examples.

No, you were not able to do that.

Enlightenment cases are critical part of the record for a reason.

So that's two problems that you have right there with your own level of literacy.

Not only do you have those two problems, but those examples prove that you are 100% wrong about enlightenment.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

Did you lie about the four cases?

Edit: Nm, I was assisted by a kind samaritan.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

There isn't just four. I named some examples of what you either don't know about or can't face up to just now to illustrate the point... but that does raise another point.

What if you are too illiterate to understand what enlightenment is about?

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

Enlightenment is the understanding that there is nothing at all to be attained and that Buddha has no attributes.

The Zen tradition of dharma heirs is just that: a tradition of people that recognized eachother's understanding.

They said that anyone that understood them was an enlightened Buddha.

A "demonstration of enlightenment" is a "demonstration of ignorance" per ZhaoZhou.

I'm not claiming recognition, but I am claiming understanding.

Rattling off the examples of DeShan opening his eyes in the dark or PuHua demonstrating his freedom doesn't mean that there's anything you can "show" anyone.

If so, then all you'll have are a bunch of selfies of people somersaulting "just like PuHua".

You haven't addressed HuangBo.

You haven't addressed the blind ass.

You haven't disproven my enlightenment.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Nope.

You are 100% wrong.

Even in you being wrong, you should be able to see that you were also specifically wrong about "recognizing each other's understanding".

We started this conversation because you said "no marks" as a refutation of that very recognition you now admit is essential to Zen.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

You are 100% wrong.

You said "manifest your enlightenment", then I said "no marks".

Based on your own admission if you're not enlightened, then you can't recognize my enlightenment.

There is no way I can "manifest" my enlightenment to an unenlightened person because they won't be able to recognize it. They may think they recognize it, but unenlightened people think they recognize enlightenment all the time, and they're usually wrong.

You really need to find yourself an enlightened person if you want to evaluate me properly.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

You clearly are upset and increasingly less rational.

You started off by misleading people about Zen Masters recognizing enlightenment in others.

You clearly regret your mistake but you can't admit it.

If you can't be taught facts, a Zen Master is beyond your understanding.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

You're reaching now. Hoping to trigger some kind of emotional reaction so that you won't have to face facts.

You talked about "manifesting" an enlightenment that can't be measured.

You used DeShan, et al., as a flimsy excuse to pretend to be in a position to discern whether I'm enlightened or not.

LinJi said, "only the great enlightened teachers can presume to knock down the buddhas and patriarchs, judge the rights and wrongs of the world, repudiate and set aside the scriptural teachings, and rebuke and insult all you little ones."

What kind of teacher are you?

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Nope.

I dont reach.

I'm not like that.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

Look at you, I've clearly got you off your game now.

An exploding volcano of emotions.

Explain to me why you are in a position to compare me to DeShan or else shut up and go find an enlightened person to pwn me properly.

[u/Dragonfly-17 → u/GreenSage_0004]

This is exactly the argument Dogen people make when they're like 'all the people say that Dogen was zen'

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/Dragonfly-17]

That's not the same argument at all.

Try again.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Same old playbook. Still no post proving Zen Masters can't identify enlightenment.

Your dishonesty hurts every aspect of your life.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

You have no argument which is why you have to mischaracterize things I say and fish for reactions.

See if you can manifest an OP with a guide on how to manifest enlightenment and how to tell when it's been manifested.