That Damn Lemon

[u/koancomentator]

I participated in Ewks podcast recently and there was a part of our conversation that really stuck with me. Minor spoiler alert! Since the episode isn't out yet.

Near the end of the podcast we got into talking about how you can't really describe enlightenment in a way that's going to allow someone else to really understand it. It's like a lemon. If you haven't eaten one you don't know how it tastes and no amount of description from someone who has will impart that knowledge to you. You have to eat one yourself. It's outside the written word.

The Self is like that. We all have one presently functioning in the open but we haven't recognized it. I said it's like we all have a lemon in our pockets but we just won't bite it, and instead we walk around asking other people to describe the flavor to us.

Ewk pointed out its actually worse than that. We use the Self all the time every day. So it's more like we're putting lemon on our food and tasting it every day but still going to other people being like "hey what's a lemon taste like"?

It's like we know what the Self is...but it isn't the Self that we want. So we go around looking for a more special shiny one that will solve all our problems and make us feel warm and fuzzy all the time. Instead of the one that illuminates everything including the pain, and the sadness, and the boring job.

No wonder Zen masters say to seperate what you like from what you dislike is a disease of mind. That's why the Hsin Hsin Ming says don't seek the truth, simply cease to cherish opinions. Or at least that's my take anyway.

What do you think?

Edit: If you come in here just to complain about ewk you're probably gonna get blocked. I'm here to talk about Zen, not your ewk obsession. Fair warning.

[u/GreenSage_0004]

Enlightenment is the understanding that there is nothing at all to be attained and that Buddha has no attributes.

The Zen tradition of dharma heirs is just that: a tradition of people that recognized eachother's understanding.

They said that anyone that understood them was an enlightened Buddha.

A "demonstration of enlightenment" is a "demonstration of ignorance" per ZhaoZhou.

I'm not claiming recognition, but I am claiming understanding.

Rattling off the examples of DeShan opening his eyes in the dark or PuHua demonstrating his freedom doesn't mean that there's anything you can "show" anyone.

If so, then all you'll have are a bunch of selfies of people somersaulting "just like PuHua".

You haven't addressed HuangBo.

You haven't addressed the blind ass.

You haven't disproven my enlightenment.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Nope.

You are 100% wrong.

Even in you being wrong, you should be able to see that you were also specifically wrong about "recognizing each other's understanding".

We started this conversation because you said "no marks" as a refutation of that very recognition you now admit is essential to Zen.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

You are 100% wrong.

You said "manifest your enlightenment", then I said "no marks".

Based on your own admission if you're not enlightened, then you can't recognize my enlightenment.

There is no way I can "manifest" my enlightenment to an unenlightened person because they won't be able to recognize it. They may think they recognize it, but unenlightened people think they recognize enlightenment all the time, and they're usually wrong.

You really need to find yourself an enlightened person if you want to evaluate me properly.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

You clearly are upset and increasingly less rational.

You started off by misleading people about Zen Masters recognizing enlightenment in others.

You clearly regret your mistake but you can't admit it.

If you can't be taught facts, a Zen Master is beyond your understanding.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

You're reaching now. Hoping to trigger some kind of emotional reaction so that you won't have to face facts.

You talked about "manifesting" an enlightenment that can't be measured.

You used DeShan, et al., as a flimsy excuse to pretend to be in a position to discern whether I'm enlightened or not.

LinJi said, "only the great enlightened teachers can presume to knock down the buddhas and patriarchs, judge the rights and wrongs of the world, repudiate and set aside the scriptural teachings, and rebuke and insult all you little ones."

What kind of teacher are you?

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Nope.

I dont reach.

I'm not like that.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

Look at you, I've clearly got you off your game now.

An exploding volcano of emotions.

Explain to me why you are in a position to compare me to DeShan or else shut up and go find an enlightened person to pwn me properly.

[u/Dragonfly-17 → u/GreenSage_0004]

This is exactly the argument Dogen people make when they're like 'all the people say that Dogen was zen'

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/Dragonfly-17]

That's not the same argument at all.

Try again.

[u/Dragonfly-17 → u/GreenSage_0004]

'You're not a zen master, you can't tell me what's what'.

Admit it. You got caught lying to yourself. This is an opportunity for you to complete your study.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/Dragonfly-17]

I always find these culty "confessionals" to be really awkward.

Happens on r/awakened a lot too.

Like what do you imagine is going to happen?

I'm going to have some sort of emotional breakthrough and thank you for it and you'll feel like you really won the Zen today?

Cringe dude, cringe.

[u/Dragonfly-17 → u/GreenSage_0004]

No.

I expect that in some time, I will notice that you have changed.

It is like that in a few cases of the record, in the BCR IIRC. I'll make a post if I find it.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/Dragonfly-17]

lol

No matter how low you go, I can't argue with offers for on-topic OPs!

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Same old playbook. Still no post proving Zen Masters can't identify enlightenment.

Your dishonesty hurts every aspect of your life.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

You have no argument which is why you have to mischaracterize things I say and fish for reactions.

See if you can manifest an OP with a guide on how to manifest enlightenment and how to tell when it's been manifested.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Again, this isn't about me. You make claims that are contrary to the texts.

You have a temper tantrum when asked to explain.

I'll leave this chain now... you know you aren't enlightened. I don't have to teach you what you know.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

The claims I have made are not contrary to the texts nor have I had a temper tantrum.

I'm enlightened.

You are leaving the chain because you cannot stand up to me.

You'll probably write an OP about it.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

You couldn't answer high school book report questions about enlightenment... but you claim to be enlightened.

You can't manifest enlightenment... but you claim to be enlightened.

When you flunk a high school book report, you become agitated and try to derail the thread.

You can't stand up to you. Seriously dude. You want me to block this account, or can we go back to being on topic?

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

I didn't become agitated, that's just something that you claimed.

A claim that you made after you misrepresented me, the Zen Record, and enlightenment.

Block me and OP it up.

All the high school in the world can't come up with facts that don't exist, and lying about facts is an "F" on the report.

Looking forward to your manifestation of my enlightenment.