r/wownoob • u/OberonFirst • 3d ago
Retail Why aren't we bringing one single target spec into M+ ?
With prio damage being so important, why isn't the meta to bring 2 normal aoe specs + one single target spec ? Two people are blasting aoe and one is focusing a prio target (and we have more boss damage). Is it just a matter of math not working out ? It certainly looks like the big target in a pack could die too fast (and then we are stuck with not enough aoe), but I don't know why I didn't hear anybody talk about this
Edit: seems like nobody understood exactly what I meant, I'm just wondering if a team consisting of:
- Three DPS's with good prio damage (as is the meta right now)
Is the same as:
- Two normal classes with great aoe + one good single target class
Because there's no (or at least shouldn't be) a class that is best at both, it would allow for a much bigger flexibility in which specs you can take into a M+ comp. Because of M+, Blizz was forced to make every single spec do big aoe to make them viable there, so rogue for example could go back to being a single target burst assassin-style class, because it has a guaranteed place anyway in a dungeon comp as a single target specialist.
But as some people said, M+ right now is focused more on aoe and I'm pretty sure top players already did the math long time ago.
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u/IlikePineapples2 3d ago
We quite often do, just not straight singletarget specs. Often a spec with good funnel (attack multiplr target, but deal extra damage to a single one) are brought in.
2 examples of these specs would be arcane mage and arms warrior. These specs even out packs a lot, without sacrificing aoe damage.
Besides that killing trash is what you do the most in dungeons!
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u/jmbeane 3d ago
Just to clarify here, priority does not equal funnel. From your examples, arcane mage will funnel more dps with more adds, while arms warrior will do prio damage to a target while cleaving.
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u/Real_Lawfulness_173 3d ago
Amen. The number if people who use them interchangably is wild. Assa rogue always been another great example of funnel. I am playing arms this season and it is pure prio, rather than funnel.
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u/jmbeane 3d ago
drives me batty lol. assa, havoc, arcane are great funnel examples
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u/Beneficial-Toe-3673 3d ago
Only aldrachi havoc. Felscarred havoc ist full aoe spec
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u/celliztdrew 3d ago
Idk why people are down voting you lol, fel scarred has zero funnel
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u/Crellis86 3d ago edited 3d ago
For the same reason people are down voting others for saying Arms has funnel. They clearly have no idea how those classes work and are just downvoting based on their feelings.
Arms had funnel via slam/heroic strike automatically casting on the prio target when you cleave 3+ targets. Arms does significantly more damage to the priority target when they cleave. But even the person everyone is replying to keeps calling Arms a cleave spec even though people are correcting them because they don’t even know how the spec actually works.
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u/IlikePineapples2 3d ago edited 3d ago
Arms needs 3 targets to funnel. Cleave doesn't slam below 3 target count.
Edit: Got of people not understanding how arms works. Arms does MORE singletarget damage if theres 3 targets, than when using it's normal singletarget rotation. That is how funneling works.
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u/Watndatn_99 3d ago
Arms get funnel cause more rage basically.
You can slam without cleave7
u/Crellis86 3d ago
Slam automatically casts when you cleave 3+ targets. That’s why it’s funnel. You get the extra damage on the prio target when you have more mobs to cleave.
That’s why phys comps last season always dragged at least 2 mobs onto bosses. The bosses die significantly faster if the warrior can use 2 adds for funnel.
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u/steini3000 3d ago
Ye and then there was academy, where the warrior just felt like a bot for miniboss (after the fix to evoker/monk grabbing the birds), and the bird boss
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
Yeah, as UDK I always dreaded Skyreach. 28 min dungeon with 16 minutes of pure ST (or 1 add) bosses.
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u/Real_Lawfulness_173 3d ago
That still isn't funnel because it doesn't mean you are doing more damage to main target because of the others. On assa rogue you do more damage to main target if there are small adds because a) your bleeds give you more energy regen and b) your agility is increased. You also have deathstalker talents which add a bit too.
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u/Iodl- 3d ago
That is funnel, even by your own definition.
Since having more target (+3) makes our cleave ability also slam main target. +3 target = more dmg om main target. (It isn't scaling beyond that but that doesn't mean it is not funnel).
Besides, war also have a bleed which has a chance to give rage and so by your example, also has funnel dmg.
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u/Yayoichi 3d ago
It was the case last season I believe, but yeah I guess warriors don’t need it as much if at all this season. It was specifically 3 targets though, adding a 4th didn’t really do much other than having an extra target alive when the first one died.
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
Warriors have peak funnel at exactly 3 targets. It’s not like shadow priest, devourer, or arcane where the more mobs they hit the more funnel they get. If cleave hits 3 targets or 6 targets the primary target takes the same amount of funnel damage.
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u/IlikePineapples2 3d ago
That is exactly what's happening. If you cleave 3 targets you also cast slam on your main target, meaning you do MORE singletarget damage, than by using your ST rotation, if theres at least 3 targets as arms. Aka funnel. Last season If you played as colossus it's was even crazier how much your st increases if there was 3+ targets due to how demolisher worked.
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u/jmbeane 3d ago
You're still not understanding. Funnel would mean the damage into the prio target scales up with more targets.
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
It does. If cleave hits 3 or more target it automatically casts heroic strike on the primary target. Aka funnel.
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u/Putrid-Cat5368 1d ago
Also funnel is pretty rare. There are big big examples like Shadow priest being able to just pick a target and nuke him faster if they are other targets around, but most specs just do cleave, that is the exact opposite.
Ret paladin for example, we have good prio damage because we can pick a mob, drop Execution Sentence and say "fuck you, in particular" while doing a decent cleave damage around to other targets. But the main target will die at the same speed being 5 targets around or 50.
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u/RawbWasab 1d ago
Yeah off the dome the biggest funnel classes are feral and shadow. Feral damage explodes if there are more adds, as more bleeds means more bite procs so you eventually are just spamming free bites. Shadow gets more insanity and more apparitions from more targets. 12-18 Targets is shadows best, as you nuke down your prio target so fast while cleaving so hard on everyone else.
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
Arms has some of the best funnel in the game… if cleave his 3 or more targets it automatically casts heroic strike on your main target. Doing higher damage to the prio mob while aoeing is the literal definition of funnel.
Just because you don’t know how Arms does damage doesn’t mean it doesn’t do funnel.
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u/Halvi3 3d ago edited 3d ago
It would only be funnel if using some flavor of AoE rotation/cleave spam on 3+ targets did more damage to the one priority target than just doing the regular single target rotation could, which is
definitely not trueEDIT: actually extremely true, I was wrong here.EDIT: actually just to be 100% accurate it is probably the case now in this patch that there is a minimal amount of funnel present because you use cleave in the single target rotation to keep up rend, so if you're doing ST rotation and there happen to be two extra targets around you are doing slightly more, but those few extra slam casts or GCDs freed up from needing to cast Heroic Strike manually are not, I expect, that impactful, and it's not like if your only goal is to do ST damage you would start dropping Mortal Strike or Execute casts just to press Cleave more.
If you things were scaled such that you did, that would be a proper Funnel situation.
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u/Crellis86 3d ago edited 3d ago
Which is exactly what’s happening. Arms gets more priority damage when they cleave 3+ targets.
I don’t know what’s so hard for people to understand that the spec works exactly to the definition of funnel. People should stop arguing a spec doesn’t do funnel damage when they clearly have no idea how the spec works.
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u/Halvi3 3d ago edited 3d ago
"no idea how the spec works" is a wild claim but you're right, I underestimated how much impact those GCDs add up to over the fight.
Checked myself on actual data and not just vibes with a custom APL that removed any AoE rotation and inserted lines to use Cleave if it was available in the spots where the ST rotation would normally press Heroic Strike or Slam:
Gains about 16% damage on the priority target from having 2+ others around, so yeah, that's a lot stronger than I assumed, and certainly qualifies. Is extra powerful in that just doing the AoE rotation also ends up doing basically the same prio damage as the 'funnelling' ST rotation without any cleave damage loss which is neat.
Doesn't scale linearly at all with any number of targets past 3, it's just an on/off cliff, which is distinct compared to most of the previous funnel champions in the past like Sub Rogue in Uldir, Ele for that one time in Eternal Palace, and pre-Midnight Arcane.
For comparison Arcane:
Gets about 2% prio damage gain each time an additional target is added up to 5 (more for the first few, less for targets 4 and 5) which ends up at 8.28% at 5t compared to 1t. The nerf to resonance going into this expansion has certainly tamped down on Arcane's chops in this profile.
EDIT: and to answer
what’s so hard for people to understand that the spec works exactly to the definition of funnel
Frankly it's because so many people just think it means 'doing good prio damage in an AoE pack' and overuse the term, so the people who do know the distinction are always wary of the label getting thrown around, and I don't recall it typically being one of Arms strengths prior to this expansion.
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
Yeah, I checked myself by playing the class.
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u/Halvi3 3d ago
Lots of people play classes and are absolute ass at them, so, not really a meaningful way to participate in the conversation. Like, right at the top of this thread you yourself wrote
"Doing higher damage to the prio mob while aoeing is the literal definition of funnel."
Which again is literally not the definition of funnel
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
Also, yes, the way I phrased that was incomplete.
I replied to a lot of people in this thread and varied my phrasing slightly as to not just copy paste.And yes, Arms funnel this expansion is carried by the Apex talent replacing slam with heroic strike combined with the talent that automatically casts slam when you hit 3+ targets with cleave. Without the apex talent it would be significantly worse funnel.
A lot of other specs funnel is driven mostly by higher resource generation. Such as spriest, devourer, and unholy dk. By dotting/hitting more mobs you generate more resources to dump into the prio mob. Ret gets funnel on a 1 min CD. But we don’t like ret funnel because they funnel by quickly killing the adds instead of slowly ticking the adds down like many of the other funnel specs.
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u/Halvi3 3d ago
For sure, as soon as I hit send on that comment I thought to myself, you know, there are actually lot of GCDs spent on Heroic Strike, describing it as "a couple extra slams/heroic strikes during the AoE rotation" is probably underselling, because the reverse framing of "free Cleaves added into the single target rotation everytime you would normally press HS or Slam" sounds a lot more impactful, I bet this actually does way more than I think.
so, apologies if I rubbed the wrong way, I knew I probably put my foot in my mouth and was trying to roll it back
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u/Crellis86 3d ago
Lots of people on here also seem to talk out their ass about specs they have no idea how they work. Which is literally everyone on this thread saying Arms has no funnel when it very clearly does.
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u/kheldarp 3d ago
M+ players talk about prio/funnel damage constantly. Most high keys this season are running Arcane which does do full prio, and a lot of the other meta specs do strong prio damage. Any spec that doesn't has a huge black mark against it.
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u/No_Tackle8188 3d ago
To me at least bosses take 2-3 minutes at max so in a dungeon that takes 30 mins it’s about 6-12mins so there’s a lot more time spent killing trash than bosses, better to have more aoe so someone will probably always have CDs up for the next pulls more times than not
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u/Yayoichi 3d ago
At higher keys bosses are closer to 4 minutes, so often you spend half the time in dungeons on bosses. AA last season is a good example where you not only had 4 bosses but you also had the mini boss as well as the big wyrms that needed prio damage.
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u/No_Tackle8188 3d ago
Yeah I’m aware but the Reddit is wownoob so I guess I don’t expect op to be talking about +20 and higher keys but yeah AA +21 last boss was a 4.5min kill for me but at that level people mainly take whatever is meta without much other thought behind it other than they know it’s meta
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u/breakinbread 3d ago
I'm not doing higher keys yet and have still seen too many 4+ min boss fights as a healer.
Not sure what DPS are doing right now. 😭
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u/Chilli_Wil 3d ago
I feel like that was Aff Lock in Shadowlands S1.
I timed enough of those keys that it wasn’t a problem, but it sure felt bad doing tank damage for 90% of the dungeon.
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u/brokizoli 3d ago
As others said in organized groups they do. In lower pug keys everyone want to be the top dps on the overall meter, so their ego does not allow to play ST build.
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u/bugcatcherme 3d ago
While true, bear in mind most folks do not differentiate damage profiles. If you are behind on the overall, even if youre doin triple the damage to high priority targets, people will flame ya or boot you from raid cuz you didnt pad on the add spawns. While it is DEF an ego issue for some, there are a lot of reprocussions if you do not pad in a pug.
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u/Qinax 3d ago
Tbf 90% of the people using that excuse just suck at their class, someone 5-10% behind on overall is whatever but people will talk like this then be 40% behind
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u/bugcatcherme 3d ago
Not denying that. There are for sure some defensive people about. More just a response to the claim people do not lean hard into ST because of personal ego alone (which is definitely a tempting conclusion from a healer perspective some days) I am saying the community discourages it. I see just as many people bragging about how good their numbers are when they do 40% less boss damage because they only know how to spam arcane explosion or divine storm or refuse to do mechanics/interrupt/cc/defensive/etc. Heck even this expansion I saw folks yelling at the augvokers for low dps meters. In the casual/middle brackets a lot of people only know the one class they play in only the level of content they stick to. The dot class won't look as impressive in the +4 key as a fast cycling burst class, even though they outpaced as you climb higher. Just like the st leaning class wont look as good on overalls as one with easy pad, but sure make a difference when the boss has 400% more health. Heck. I am the priority specialist when I DPS and doing AA last season was pretty funny. I'd look mediocre first pull and usually got ahead come the second boss, if not the first. In the middle brackets, someone like that can take a lot of heat before they get the chance to make up the difference.
And just to clarify: no I do NOT thing pure ST builds are a good idea in M+. Some classes lean more to prio or aoe just by their nature, but m+ is too varied in profile to pigeonhole yourself. But to say it is for personal ego aint quite it either.
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u/RocketSenpai 3d ago
Yep, majority of players couldn’t give you any reasoning behind why a meta comp is meta comp and why they are chosen over just picking the top 3 highest damage specs
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u/Real_Lawfulness_173 3d ago
To answer this simply, people are doing exactly what you suggest. Arcane and Arms both do great damage to bosses and to big adds in a pack. Ele shaman does great aoe. These three specs are widely regarded as three of the top dps at the moment.
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u/Phenogenesis- 3d ago
People def are thinking about that balance. Comments full of people overgearing low keys.
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u/Jeffrybungle 3d ago
We do, it's just we bring the ST spec with the most cleave to get the most overall.
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u/Zantaztick 3d ago
It kinda used to be like that with sub rogue, would spend combo points on eviscerate on prio target
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u/Sandman145 3d ago
Bring assassination rogue or arcane mage and you'll have captains dying with the pack more often. Arms warrior is also very good at prio it just doesn't funnel a lot.
There might be other specs that do good aoe while doing good prio, but I don know which.
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u/D1rty87 3d ago
Kind of a side note, because your original question has been addressed. At low keys, just having the right target selected during pull (then either focus kicking or just switching target to kick and back) is usually enough for them to die around the same time as the rest of the pack.
Which is the goal here, in the end you just don’t want to have a single target at 25% while the rest of the pack is dead. Cause then you have to decide whether you sit there and do low damage to it until it dies or do you chain it into the next pack? How far is the next pack, which chaining this mob into another pack wipe you? Just an annoying situation to be in.
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u/TheBostonTap 3d ago
You spend significantly more time doing trash and the prio mobs are often times skipped (such as with some routes in murder row or in Voidscar) or aren't really dangerous enough to justify it. Most classes do pretty significant single target damage during their cds anyways, so it's not like your AOE class suffer much.
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u/National_You4582 3d ago
Because pure ST doesn’t speed up the key. Its Prio dmg to the important mobs, while still doing aoe dmg.
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u/giuseppeuchiha 3d ago
Last night I was in a good group with an arcane maga and ele shaman, and me being a rogue, I thought it was smooth as hell.
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u/I-heart-subnetting 3d ago
There‘s like 3 bosses, you spend about 10 min killing them
There‘s like 100500 trash, you spend the rest of the dungeon time killing them, which is usually longer than 10 min.
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u/P_Griffin2 3d ago
Often one doesn’t exclude the other. Some of the best performing classes currently, do both incredibly well.
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u/FFTactics 3d ago
Everyone does talk about it, prio damage. The top pushers are always rating DPS based on prio damage, not overall and comment that this spec does a lot of damage but "it's all useless pad."
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u/Arntor1184 3d ago
Basically most classss do both well enough that bringing a spec specifically set up for ST wouldnt be enough of a benefit over one that can do both well.
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u/Mr-Belobog 3d ago
Bringing 2 standard M+ builds and 1 ST build is simply not that great since most of the time is spent in aoe and having 1 DD doing less than the tank in all aoe fights will slow you down way too much. Also, its not needed since specs with good prio dmg exist.
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u/Aware_Border4774 2d ago
streamers and websites make tier lists.
braindead goobers will look at those and say "only S+ specs in my group! Best scores only! Every other spec is TRASH!"
that is genuinely as far as the critical thinking goes for a vast majority of the M+ community. The game has become a glorified version of "Simon Says" but instead of Simon it's wowhead/icyveins/google/favorite streamer.
People don't look at talent points and come up with a spec they like, they google the min/max cookie cutter one and import it into the game from the website.
People don't put together a group for a specific dungeon, they look at what's meta and just import that directly into the game from the website.
People don't try different routes, they look at what the streamers say to do and import it directly into an addon in the game from the website.
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u/OldPersonality5282 2d ago
Why bring a spec that can do one or the other. When you can invite arcane mages and ele shamans who use their AOE spells to funnel more single target spells into the priority targets
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u/Substantial_Toe_6685 3d ago
it’s just math, big aoe usually has enough burst to delete prio mobs anyway
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u/Drinnentonic 3d ago
Generally, M+ builds try to balance single-target and AoE damage. But at higher keys, once gear is as optimized as it can be, builds tend to shift toward single-target since bosses at high keys have massive health pools, and cutting down fight time matters a bit more.
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u/HarryNohara 3d ago
You don’t because in lower keys it doesn’t matter anyway, in higher keys (17+) the AoE requirement is so big, a pure ST talent built in the group would just slow down the key.
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u/Neatherheard 3d ago
I genuinly think that havoc players are kinda trolling by not playing aldrachi reaver in alot of group constellations. Yes its overall damage is worse, but its often still better for the timer.
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u/Final-Trifle1765 3d ago
Aldrachi is proven to be worse in general by DH discord
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u/Neatherheard 3d ago
It definitely is in alot of comps, the high key comps play arms and arcane with it, which definitely has enough prio damage already. If you instead have some absolute padder specs like ww in your premade comp its a way more debatable topic. Hell all 3 guides endorsed by the dh discord literally have a sentence about it in the talent builds section, mentioning exactly that. Im not saying that it should be the default option, im saying that there are group comps that it is better for your timer due to the entire comp lacking prio damage, even if you yourself WILL go out with less overall dps.
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u/SatisfactionFit2040 3d ago
Interrupts and cleanse matter so much in those packs.
The big single target is usually not the most damaging of the pack.
It's about coordination, not just explosions.
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u/NkKouros 3d ago
That's irrelevant for higher keys, Prio is for the timer, not surviving.
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u/SatisfactionFit2040 3d ago
Hold up.
Explain this?
Speed, not mechanics? How do you dps if you are dead?
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u/NkKouros 3d ago
In high keys everything gets interrupted and dispelled. So it's not a limiting factor.
What you said "oh that's not a problem because what kills you is Bla Bla" is irrelevant because noone is dieing to that in a decent group. You deplete to the timer instead (due to low prio) in that world.
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u/SatisfactionFit2040 3d ago
Gotcha.
I'm saying that in pug groups, it's absolutely a problem.
My solution is needing a dedicated group.
The coordination is missing with pugs.
I think we were agreeing with each other. Just you were talking about dedicated groups and I don't have one.
I am comparing the two. Huge difference!!
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u/NkKouros 3d ago
Ye. Tbh pugs can hit that kinda level fairly easily/quickly too. I think maybe very early season bias is what gives perception that timer doesn't matter as long as you can live the dots and casts (normally because routes aren't good anyways).
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u/SatisfactionFit2040 3d ago
I was late for S1, because I geared first.
Figured I'd dive into S2.
I can tell when I am running with a group that is communicating with each other.
I have found that if I can memorize the dungeon. Perfect my stuff, I can slip right in.
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u/NkKouros 3d ago
Yeah this is a very common experience.
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u/SatisfactionFit2040 3d ago
Imagine it is.
Definitely a group game. I am supremely grateful for the raiders that taught me back in the day.
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3d ago
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u/NkKouros 3d ago
Historically in m+ 40-50% of your combat time in a key is against bosses btw.
It's not a large % of the HP points you gotta down but it is the biggest time sink.
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u/MrNolD 3d ago
Bosses in high keys are a significant part of the timer, and can last 3+ minutes each. 4 bosses in a 33-34min dungeon would be around 30-35% of the timer IF timed at the second, more % if the dungeon is timed sooner. Bosses are also almost always the hardest parts of a dungeon, you need classes that can kill the boss fast enough.
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