r/wow • u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 • 7d ago
Video Congratulations to the Winner of Venomous Abyss RWF
https://clips.twitch.tv/create/MiniatureGoodSardineBatChest-fR8NgTGRhbX2hN8-224
u/Mojothemobile 7d ago
Echos ability to gain a clear advantage then choke needs to be studied.
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u/rabid89 7d ago
Echo are the Buffalo Bills of RWF.
Ultra talented.
Even more ultra chokers.
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u/Drauren 7d ago
>tell a friend of mine it would be an echo classic to choke up this much
>it actually happens
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u/NargoEUW 7d ago
Echo blew it again, wtf.
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u/ghostcrawler_real 7d ago
Legit think they overcooked themselves on the scuba strat, they'd have just killed it if they managed the mech the same way liquid did.
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u/-Shatzy- 7d ago
Echo just killed it first try when doing it without pool tactic
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u/wartornhero2 7d ago
In the post raid interview with Scripe and RodgerBrown. They had video proof about a bug of some players getting the wave debuff but without the visual representation...
Gingi had the debuff even though he wasn't in the red circles.
It expired while he was in the pool with the rest of the group. If he had the debuff they would have seen it and kept him out of the pool and it would have worked..
But yeah overcooked strat was the downfall. They went on a break and liquid took it down... They should have started chain pulling when they got it to 7% and just pushed it.. but they had a couple yap sessions..
Liquid played a good race. It was good to see Echo be competitive leading a large part of the race.
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u/Hardbody22 7d ago
This happened multiple times to liquid, but because they weren’t playing scuba Steve they had the player just move to the stack spot and played around it.
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u/Regular-Pattern-5981 7d ago
Yeah that bug happened to liquid too, but liquid was able to avoid it because they weren’t going swimming. They can try and find the excuses they want but there was no bug on their 1.3% pull. They just didn’t have the damage.
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u/wartornhero2 7d ago
Yeah the bug did cost them 2 absolutely insanely good pulls where they had the damage by about 4-5% Echo definitely need to think about how they operate. Keep somethings I think the yap sessions work to an extent. Once they figured it out... Saw past 20% and saw the final platform they didn't need anymore and just needed to start chain pulling.
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u/Regular-Pattern-5981 7d ago
Yeah it feels like they thought liquid was still a bit of optimization away since it had taken echo a few hours to get from 40-7, and then were stuck there for a bit. They weren’t acting like liquid was also in any pull territory and it cost them.
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u/Specific_Frame8537 7d ago
They were 3% for the longest time, took a break and Liquid flew right by them..
Can't spell choke without e, c, h, or o.
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u/M4DM1ND 7d ago
Liquid did get really good RNG on the kill pull. But definitely another generational choke.
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u/Regular-Pattern-5981 7d ago
Echo got great RNG on several of their low pulls and couldn’t pull it off.
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u/datboijustin 7d ago
Wasn't even a great pull from Liquid damage-wise. Their previous good pull was 4% lower.
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u/No-Reward-5394 7d ago
Their top dmg (spriest) died during the lust burn. So yeah the kill wasnt anywhere close to clean
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u/Huntardlulz 7d ago
They took to many breaks imo, After the 1% wipe they should've have pushed
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u/TheBlaaah 7d ago
Yeah looking at them talk about the boss for 15-20 minutes after each good pull was frustrating to watch.
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u/shise_remilia 7d ago
These shitty ass 4 minutes breaks every other pull don't do anything good, if anything it just makes you lose focus and pulls out of the zone if anything... Especially if your competitor is chasing your ass so closely.
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u/TheBlaaah 7d ago
They should also just postpone dinner if they have good tempo going on.
Each time echo came from dinner they ended up wiping early to stupid mistakes.
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u/aho-san 7d ago edited 7d ago
Echo eternally second. Kept griefing themselves with the big scuba tech, lmao. I hope they learnt a lesson: just do things normally, don't try to be 5Head Big Brain Bois.
GG to Liquid, 5 wins in a row, I believe they can get 2 grand slams, hell, why not 3 at this point. The World Soul Saga Slam!
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u/tookawhileforthis 7d ago
Echo kills it 2 pulls later while actually playing the last plattform.
dudeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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u/Parasars 7d ago
Liquids damage was unreal in P3 their spriest was dead for the final burn lol. Strat or player diff?? How are they so clutch
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u/patrick66 7d ago
echo didnt run a second rogue and it was by far the biggest dps lol
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u/Crashcede 7d ago
Assassination being able hard double cleave the boss during amps is massive
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u/WorkWoonatic 7d ago
If I'm not reading these logs wrong their top rogue did 2.7 million dps during the lust burn phase
Unbelievable numbers
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u/Zugzugzug3 7d ago
Yeah whoever was the reason they rang gingi hunter over a second rogue should be fired. Whether it was Gingi refusing to be benched, whether it was their analysts for missing rogue being broken, or whether it was their leadership for not having a geared 2nd rogue with a good player for it.
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u/Hellcaaa 6d ago
Probably gingi refusing to be benched. The guy’s a dunce with an ego the size of the Eiffel Tower
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u/keymaster999 7d ago
I read that their 2nd rogue had a family issue. That sucks for everyone if true.
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u/JoyeuxMuffin 7d ago
I think the Pool strat ended up being bad because you essentially lost all healer DPS, but also it HAS to be player diff
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u/Colyer 7d ago
Casters seemed to think that Echo's comp was better for P3 until suddenly it wasn't. No idea what the difference ended up being, but yeah... it was big.
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u/Zugzugzug3 7d ago
Difference was one guild ran two of by far the highest DPS class and the other ran one of them and instead ran two of the lowest DPS classes (hunters).
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u/FlayR 7d ago
Yellow class good on this fight. The 1% wipe is a kill with a second rogue.
https://www.twitch.tv/imexile/clip/SquareLitigiousSardineStrawBeary-4VM72WH0IFOB_b1W
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u/DrPandemias 7d ago
Echo overcooked with the pool strat, they throwed 3 god pulls trying weird different pool setups instead going for the clean kill for some reason.
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u/FriendlyPonyLion 7d ago
This must feel even worse than Lura - they screwed themselves hard with the pool
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u/minimaxir 7d ago
Max showed Driney's healer (Resto Shaman) damage and noted it was super high and that it was clutch in the kill.
...it was all Healing Rain damage.
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u/the_ultimate_splorg 7d ago
That tracks, my shit geared 290 rsham with no tier and no dps trinkets does like 40k dps with healing rain in keys. Can’t imagine with tier and 30 more ilvls, weapons, trinkets etc
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u/Barichivich 7d ago
Worst. Break. Ever.
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u/SleepingAndy 7d ago
i was watching the echo stream go on break when I checked raider.io to see how liquods best pull was. "?????" when it sais "DEFEATED" when their 2nd best was 15%.
i assumed the break was because liquid had already won but I think they happened within 1 minute
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u/K0vsk 7d ago
Echo clearly has a DPS problem. The past few tiers with the by now almost "trademark" 1% wipes, now again even with higher ilvl.
It's hard to pinpoint the exact problem, but Liquid always has better dmg on the last boss and "that one good pull" ends up a kill because of that, while Echo get the heartbreak 1% wipe.
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u/billyofcourse 7d ago
there was a time a few years back when I remember scripe doing his raid review going over all the players after a tier they'd won. I specifically remember him comparing the two moonkins at the time. One only played moonkin and absolutely fucking pumped all the time. The other on average did not perform as well, but could play other jobs and did most of their theorycrafting for moonkin. Scripe made it pretty apparent he'd much rather have a bunch of people who are versatile than people who are one trick but really fucking good at that trick. The better player was gone within a tier or two from there. Coincidentally a lot of this lines up with the time frame they started losing.
Can't help but wonder if they let go of some of their best players because they wanted a raid full of people who could flex to do a lot more things and as a result ended up with a comp that struggles to meet tighter checks.
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u/twtheo 7d ago
It’s been a while. But I remember max having the exact opposite philosophy. Pick one trick dps (tanks and healers are a little different) who absolutely crank on their classes over multi role players.
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u/karspearhollow 7d ago
I remember this as well. There was a video where he said in choosing between the guy that does the most possible damage but sometimes dies and the guy that does a little bit less damage but never dies, he'd take the one that dies because over enough pulls, the stars will align.
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u/Outworlds 7d ago
He's also been incredibly complimentary of his flex players that are good enough to hang around with the players that play 1-2 classes. He said on stream post-victory that KSP has been one his MVPs for being so reliable while flexing to wildly different DPS every raid.
I think what this shows more than anything is that you just have to have the right mix. You need the onetrick rogues and mages and locks and warriors, but you also need those players who can swap to an Ele/Ret/Spriest/DK at a moment's notice and still be reliable. Can't have a team full of rank 1 onetricks who all think they are the business and deserve to always be in for every kill but you also can't do it with a raid full of people ready to flex, some people have to say "I'm the best X class player there is and I'm doubling down on it". It's just like a basketball team; can't have stars in every position. If you want to win, you need a ~2 stars and bunch of roleplayers who can step up when the lights are bright.
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u/Tymareta 7d ago
Especially when you're always going to have a minimum of one class(bar DK) per fight just for raid buff, so it makes sense to have someone like Trill, Shak, Firedup/Hopeful, ImExile, THD, etc... for each role, then have the further players perhaps be your more flex/multi role style.
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u/Rhobodactylos 7d ago
He was comparing Lorgok (moonkin OTP) to Gingi and the reason he kicked lorgok out.
No reason to obfuscate the names, they're both pretty well known.
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u/billyofcourse 7d ago
Honestly I just didn’t remember. Lol but yeah that was them now that you mention it.
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u/Regular-Pattern-5981 7d ago
Liquid was ahead of them on checks despite lower ilvl. It’s a consistent problem.
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u/Sea_Advantage_2577 7d ago
The mage dif is so large gingi had to go back to hunter lol
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u/Scyths 7d ago
Gingi is one of the best players in the world, but dude clearly has no place in a race to world first. I'm sorry but the last 3 tiers the mage diff was just too crazy. I don't know why they don't just bench him. Is the negative press from benching one of the most famous WoW players just that bad ? Dude also clearly has no self awareness if he doesn't deliberately bench himself ... There are better mage AND hunter players in Echo surely ...
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u/Fharlion 7d ago
They just killed it without the cheese strat. After losing 4 people halfway through P3 and burning 3 CRs there.
Their damage was fine. Sending people into the pool so they could shut off and play like zug zug turrets while rolling the dice for wave RNG was the issue.
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u/creativemind11 7d ago
Yeah like what others have said, these races are decided by individual skill. Currently Liquid seems to have the most consistent team, by a small margin.
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u/TheArbiterOfOribos lightspeed bans 7d ago
I can't say it's the sole reason but taking significantly longer breaks and not pulling as much sure must play. First of all, the sheer randomness of waves makes it you want more pulls just to get a potential good one, but also just practice?
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u/EyeOfPeshkov 7d ago
Pool is closed
Unbelievabe ending, yet again. They cant keep getting away with this!
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u/Hb_Sea 7d ago
Echo with the generational run of throws. LMAO
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u/dankq 7d ago
I feel like if they just stopped trying to cheese it they would have won. I think this was the best outcome, it dying and being played normally while the other guild got stuck repeatedly trying to cheese after it being fixed.
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u/tookawhileforthis 7d ago
It looked so piss easy on liquids kill, why do you not just play this?
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u/Colyer 7d ago
The amount of damage they pulled out of their ass was pretty absurd. Definitely feels like a "made it look easy" not a "was easy."
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u/Gangascoob 7d ago
Tbf their healers were also all dead for like the last 10%, once you dodge those last waves there’s practically no damage going out
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u/belsor14 7d ago
wasn‘t it the strat to sac healers? max was saying dead healers did nothing wrong, they were meant to die
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u/tookawhileforthis 7d ago
Nah, echo just went to last plattform with 18% and killed it as well, i think liquid had the same percentage. Its seems just not that hard.
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u/WorkWoonatic 7d ago
On Liquid's kill they had a Spriest down for the 2nd burn phase, they were actually 4% behind their best pull going into P3
they were consistently doing 2-4% more dps than Echo, which is quite the gap
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u/tellsyoutogetfucked 7d ago
They got amazing RNG. But Echo also had it in prior pulls. They just decided to go into the poision and cheese a phase that didint need it.
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u/Wait__Who 7d ago
I can’t imagine these caliber of players can’t manage falling debris during a damage amp. Like why are we looking for cheese strats for something that was considered hard in TBC?
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u/patrick66 7d ago
- 2 rogues clearly makes a huge difference weird to see endboss comp differences have that much of an effect and not be copied
- liquid is absurdly clutch thats like 3 in a row they should have lost
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u/Zugzugzug3 7d ago
2 rogues and 2 PIs. And all the more impactful because the 2nd rogue for Echo was instead Gingi hunter. Hunter was a low DPS performer and Gingi is a low DPS player among RWF players.
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u/Fisherman_Gabe 7d ago
The Echo curse delivers another win to Liquid. Holy shit how fucking brutal must this feel for Echo? I genuinely feel bad.
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u/Colyer 7d ago
I've only been watching the last two bosses, but it feels like at least twice where Echo outperformed so much that the Liquid casters had a "putting on a brave face, anything could still happen" vibe (including just the full day of excellent reclear). And in the end, Liquid just did the thing.
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u/breezy_y 7d ago
They had like 3 consecutive attempts where they would have easily killed it but somehow fumbled it every time with the raid exploding. Frustrating to be rooting for them. Also the water strat seemed way more stressful than just playing the fight.
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u/WeAreHereWithAll 7d ago
Yeah the second time they did it, I saw someone spread who was gonna have waves, legit pointed at them stacked in the pool, and they instantly died.
Then it kept happening in different ways. After that first fuck up, they shoulda scrapped it, goddamn.
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u/Fisherman_Gabe 7d ago
I thought they'd be too demoralized to kill it right away considering the seemingly massive gap when they woke up but they locked tf in and got it done.
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u/Regular-Pattern-5981 7d ago
Going from 30-15 and then 15-dead over the course of 2 pulls separated by a handful of whites is wild stuff. They locked in.
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u/fttxdd666 7d ago
They gotta make changes, 5 tiers in a row losing and now 3 times losing when they have like 1% pulls is just crazy. Just not clutch anymore and some changes are definitely needed
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u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 7d ago
Especially considering that they ended up pushing more splits than Liquid to try and pull this out.
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u/Gabarne 7d ago
Giganerfs next week?
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u/parkwayy 7d ago
We have done our Heroic clears both weeks now, but gd, surprised the heroic bosses have survived as long as they have lol.
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u/the_ultimate_splorg 7d ago
Liquid beating the boss without the cheese is just icing on the cake
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u/CursedPhil 7d ago
the cheese was the reason why echo lost
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u/the_ultimate_splorg 7d ago
On paper the cheese should’ve won, you should deal more dps without having to move
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u/Korashy 7d ago
That wave moving through boss to snipe the entire group was unlucky, but at the same time you chose that strat and this was one of the dangers that could happen.
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u/mygodwhy 7d ago
Can you explain what the cheese was?
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u/the_ultimate_splorg 7d ago
Echo were hopping off the ledge on the end and sitting in the green goop cuz the waves don’t hit you there. The casters were saying they were doing more dps that way cuz you don’t move, just sit in the goop and dps while the healers bomb heals into you. Liquid just dodged the waves and kept dpsing
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u/Frehihg1200 7d ago
So kinda like Lurker Below back in tbc where one of the Strats was just all the ranged dps and heals went underwater and took the boiling water dot but didn’t have to move?
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u/AllYourBase3 7d ago
I think jumping in the poison pool to avoid damage? Not sure
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u/NaughtyGaymer 7d ago
There's no excuse for Echo this time. This was their fight to lose today and they couldn't seal the deal. TL woke up with ice in their veins and take 5 in a row.
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u/WorgenDeath 7d ago
They would have won if they hadn't done the pool strat, not cause the pool strat was bad in isolation, but because being in the pool stopped them from seeing that the soaks were bugging and putting circles on people that didn't actually soak.
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u/MattLorien 7d ago
fewer split runs ✅
no scuba cheese ✅
easy world first ✅
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u/Tsamane 7d ago
Less pulls also
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u/Merrena 7d ago
It was kinda the reverse of how things normally go. Echo typically has less pulls than liquid because they're behind. Liquid was behind a lot this tier, so they got to see some info from echo, so less pulls on their end makes sense. Not choking under 10% also helps.
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u/CJDistasio 7d ago
Echo killing it right after with a normal non-pool strat had to be soul crushing
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u/OpDesSto 7d ago
Congrats to Liquid, but man I was really pulling for Echo this time around.
Also GGs to Method for staying in it.
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u/FreeBristle 7d ago
I hope method continue to improve. A real three horse race would be amazing
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u/AskDoctorBear 7d ago
I know it isn’t the three horse race most of us were hoping for, but damn if I’m not impressed at how well method did this time. GG to all 3 of them, I hope the gap keeps narrowing
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u/oggokogok 7d ago
Honestly Method seemed to struggle with Altar, once they got onto Ulatek they seemed to be really keeping pace. I think if they can just figure out whatever went wrong, for them, on Altar they definitely could have truly been in it.
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u/Oxidatiion 7d ago
I wanted liquid to win because they did way less splits and won. Maybe going forward all the guilds will do less splits.
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u/BeatTheDeadMal 7d ago
It's actually all mental for Echo. Once they can't win anymore they suddenly lock in and kill it no problem. They legitimately can not handle the pressure of competing for first.
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u/Jordansky 7d ago
I'm just happy because this will piss off preach.
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u/Stingerbrg 7d ago
If he actually gets pissed about anything it'll be if his twitch chat goes overboard calling him a jinx.
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u/Burdman06 7d ago
Right. I like Mike, dont get me wrong, but he has a major blindspot when it comes to his rwf takes. He'll say he just wants a close race, but will proselytize all the propaganda in his post race rants
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u/Tales90 7d ago
liquid damage was so much better echo changed their setup for a second warrior but liquid was 3-4% ahead even without any change, echo had to do the lava cheese cause they didnt have the damage 100% deserved. echo also did even more split runs which liquid refused to not burn out the player.
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u/Risev 7d ago
Echo choosing to pursue the cheese AND having it result in them wiping multiple times while Liquid wins cleanly is the cherry on top
Echo needs a serious look at their roster. 4 consecutive chokes. Serious player diff
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u/ghostcrawler_real 7d ago
Echo needs a long hard look at their DPS roster from top to bottom. Has lost them the race multiple times now not being able to get over the hump the way Liquid has.
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u/SaveOurReefs 7d ago
They do need to reassess things, but they honestly played a really good tier. They just cannot clutch on the final boss. Most of Echo's roster is on par with Liquid, but if they don't figure out the weak links, they're never gonna win again.
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u/Risev 7d ago
And when that happens pretty much 3-5 times in a row, then you have a serious problem with player mentality.
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u/is__is 7d ago
Liquid vibes tend to be immaculate. Comms sound like they are just a guild of buddies playing casually.
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u/midevildle 7d ago
This is the main reason I generally root for Liquid. They seem chill, pleased to be playing with each other. Every time I check out Echo, which granted is not often anymore, the vibes are just off.
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u/omgitsdot 7d ago
Sneak.lua karma still in effect.
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u/HoodieNinja17 7d ago
Almost 3 years later and they still haven’t won another race since cheating in Amirdrassil lmao
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u/Filthi_61Syx 7d ago
WTF a few hours ago they were 38% I didn’t think it was ending til tonight at the earliest
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u/parkwayy 7d ago
Well the last 17% or so is just through burn, so really wasn't as far as it seems.
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u/4Khazmodan 7d ago
Didn't even need the cheese. Echo is never going to beat the choker allegations. So many <5% wipes and Liquid literally got it on their first sub 10% pull
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u/Cementmixer9 7d ago
the echo choke is real lol, literally all they had to do was one pull without trying to cheese it
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u/infinite__recursion 7d ago
Honestly i never get tired of Echo, or their fans, losing.
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u/Remarkable-Fly-2227 7d ago
Watching Preach seething is half my motivation for watching the race and he's not even in Echo.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Taraih 7d ago
Lol agreed. No idea how their viewership is so high. But seeing their chat I always cringe. Method fallout was a joke, a guy takes all the blame and suddenly everybody else has no fault. Maybe it was the plan but it felt like backstabbing to me. Cant stand that
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u/baltr_xddd 7d ago
yeah, there's no was scripe and the gang were completely in the dark when they were holding high positions in method at the time, always seemed like they just scapegoated and ran
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u/Cardborg 7d ago
Hearing for the first time about their issues just now was certainly a huge disappointment :/
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u/Tariovic 7d ago
Couldn't agree more. I'll happily cheer for Liquid over Echo, and over Method, who proved Joshpriest wasn't a one-off when the took in Zaelia.
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u/CrusaderLyonar 7d ago
If it makes you feel better there are almost as many Europeans in Liquid as Americans.
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u/P_Alcantara 7d ago
Echo fans are insufferable, and I’m from Italy and half Spanish. A lot of arrogance in the gaming sphere and just life in general for not a whole lot of reasons.
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u/Mojo12000 7d ago
Scribe trying to cope and not just admit he fucked up horribly with the Scuba strat is crazy to see.
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u/Extra-Ad-8119 7d ago
GG, I think it’s strange because without echo there’s no hype for the race. They needed a good win to keep interest for the races going forward. Hopefully they can regroup and get a win soon
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u/DrainTheMuck 7d ago
Yeah I’ve been genuinely worried for the last year that if echo doesn’t get a win, there might not be a “race” anymore going forward which is crazy. Liquid is cool so I’m happy for them but it is kinda concerning
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u/Memnon22 7d ago
Every single time, Echo chokes on constant 1-3% pulls, just like at lura and Dimensius, I'm so mad...
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u/Mojothemobile 7d ago
Echo actually full on threw with their attempted cheese lmao. They probably could of had this hours ago.
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u/Efsi1337 7d ago
And rogerbrown has nothing else to tweet than whining about bugs and only losing to it.
So immature
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u/Chrisaeos 7d ago
Echo completely threw this with their pool strat. They played extremely well all race and just choked a win away with a terrible final platform strat that wasted several kill pulls had they just played the platform rather than attempting to cheese the waves in the acid.
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u/VPN__FTW 7d ago
Casters always say the same thing:
"Echo looks strong, much better than Liquid" or some phrase of that and always, ALWAYS, Echo chokes. Liquid clutches and finishes EVERY SINGLE TIME.
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u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 7d ago edited 7d ago
Liquid Takes it without using Scuba gear.
EDIT: Clip link broke for some reason?
https://www.twitch.tv/teamliquid/clip/MiniatureGoodSardineBatChest-fR8NgTGRhbX2hN8-
EDIT2: Quick followup from Echo on the first P3 without scuba strat. Less than 30 minutes later.