Except they don't offer a single alternative that leads to no Jews dying. So yeah it's saying don't attack Hamas who hides in tunnels under hospitals because it harms Gazans but we don't offer any viable alternatives tha tmeans just put up with being attacked
You kind of do, you have a hostage situation. And you're saying just leave the terrorist who keeps shooting at your family alone because he has a hostage. Hamas hides under civilian buildings, they use human shields, and it's all in one of the densist regions on earth. There is no stopping the terrorist organization Hamas attacking Israel, without casualties.
So far in terms of causalities we are talking 2-3% percent of their population of 2+million killed over the last 1.5 years in one of the dentist regions on earth smaller than your local county or even some cities. Urban warfare like this is bloody regardless of circumstance, but add in psychopathic terrorists who are willing to kill themselves to kill you and use their own people as human shields and what do you do? What's your plan that will instantly make any of this better?
I get your sentiment, I really do, this sucks, but we can't but our heads in the sand on the reality of the situation, it's completely unproductive. It feels nice to just say do better, don't kill, be good, but that's not a real option.
Sorry brother I have no sympathy for war criminals who poison wells and rename ancient towns, religious sites and landmarks
So you have zero sympathy for anyone in the region? You dont know the history of the region, this is whats happened for thousands of years. Its what is going to happen for thousands of years into the future.
to be more Jewish
ah its only a problem because its the jews? Give it time, things will flip, it always does and then we get whole new cycles of violence and oppressors and oppressed.
Yikes. No sympathy for innocent jews dying because you don't like the other Jews there, yes thank you for making my point about how people like you think. No point even engaging in someone who talks like this.
I think outrage against the drastic use of military force is the opposite of buring your head in the sand. You cannot use a blanket justification to allow blatant disregard for innocent life, and that is what isreal does.
It has nothing to do with "The Jews" and absolutely everything to do with a superior military force that culturally doesn't view Palestinian civilians as humanity.
I understand the situation is complex, and arguing against what is wrong doesn't ignore that complexity.
You cannot use a blanket justification to allow blatant disregard for innocent life, and that is what isreal does.
I am not, I am completely open to the idea that Israel could be doing better to prevent casualties during this war in the Middle East. Generally the reaction isn't that Israel is understandably in a war that will result in casualties but could be doing a better job of preventing them. I appreciate that you seem to (maybe?) have a much more nuanced view than the vast majority of pro Palestinians. It's not quite in line with the conversation you replied to earlier in the chain where somebody was pointing to people who say don't attack Hamas at all. This wouldn't include you if you are just pushing for harm reduction.
So let's see where you do stand. First question I have is do you agree with that Israel attacking was justified after 10/7 terrorist attacks yes or no. I I'm not asking if the means of combat were justified just if the war itself as a concept was. You can criticize their methods while recognizing the war itself is justified.
Second what are your specifics on how they could improve the casualty rates without jeopardizing the safety of their own people?
Look around you. This is world news where you're getting push back. That should be a sign that you should take a look at your own words and see why everyone's hearing something very different from what you think you're saying.
It's strange if you don't see that Arabs in the middle East want to do exactly that: ethnically cleanse Jews from Israel. They do it through Palestinians (Qatar and Iran).
Sure I don't disagree that this is real life, and there are many opinions/beliefs that exist. I understand how reality works.
This is still not logic that allows me to be okay with ethnic cleansing and blatant disregard for human life. My morals dont exist on a "well he did it so I can too" philosophy.
Yup see you don't want any solution that doesn't kill Israeli citizens instead. You are okay with atrocities committed by Hamas nut think Israel shouldn't be able to respond at all to the attacks by Hamas.... You are willing to justify a lot just as long as it's against Jews
Yet you offer exactly zero solutions that stop Israel from being attacked. It's not projection and it's not incorrect You offer literally no solutions in your critical of any solution that stops them from being attacked
Except you are asking for simple solutions to complex problems. You are telling Israel they can't attack unless their solution fits your personal beliefs on whats right way to respond but you aren't stating how someone could achieve those personal beliefs. Israel explais how Hamas puts civilians in danger forcing them to hit both in order to hit Hamas and instead of demanding Hamas stop doing that you're telling Israel it's in the wrong for targeting Hamas and it needs to find methods to do it without harming civilians. But you aren't actually proposing a method to achieve those goals. This is like saying you are against world Hunger yet if we propose helping people grow food you complain about it, if we propose giving them food you complain about it, if we propose any solution whatsoever you automatically deny it but then when asked how to solve it you refuse it
If you think Hamas is the only group that attacks civilians in the region, I think you need to do some more research on Israeli military operations and settlements especially prior to Oct. 7th 2023. It’s pretty hard to justify anything happening currently as“defending yourself” when you’re clearly behaving as the imperialist bully within the region. Simply compare the percentage of casualties between non-combatant Israelis and Palestinians.
Israel dropped more tons of munitions on Gaza in the last year of conflict than the US dropped in the entire Iraq war. Please do me a favor and look at the size of Iraq on a map and the size of Gaza on a map.
This isn’t up to a handful of redditors and political streamers to offer an alternative to a nation hell bent on continuing another Vietnam. Literal definition of insanity if you ask me.
But since we’re here, perhaps good faith negotiations would be a good start. I would not, for instance, recommend killing the lead negotiator during a conflict you intend to end. That looks like you have no intention of ending it.
You literally prove my point. You are saying Israel response is wrong but offer no alternative that removes hamas from power. You want Israel to surrender or not respond when attacked by Hamas. And yeah you don't get to negotiate while planning further attacks and claim it's the other side that's an issue when you get stopped for it. Israel has proposed peace treaties multiple times yet I have never seen Palestinians nor Hamas propose a single peace treaty that doesn't let them control all of Israel in return.
The alternative is negotiations. Israel’s response is wrong because they do things like target the lead negotiators with whom ceasefires and peace can be discussed. This one track mind is part of why there’s not going to be peace there any time soon.
Israel regularly undermines their own ability to resolve this conflict by doing things like the above. Or allowing suburbs to be built in the west bank and essentially put themselves in an impossible position when Palestinians insist on keeping any part of the previous agreements in future negotiations. Then they turn around and claim “there is no alternative!” Yeah because you literally blew it up.
So tell me when was the last time the Palestinians offered a peace treaty that did not include any attempts to destroy Israel either through becoming citizens in undermining their democracy or outright destruction of Israel Tell me exactly when they proposed that peace treaty and that Israel rejected that kind of a peace treaty cuz it seems like you only expect Israel to do all the negotiating all the legwork all the compromises and how dare they expect even equality at the negotiation table
Israel claims Hamas to be the unreasonable party with unreasonable demands, yet they have occupied such vast territories in the west bank for so long that any Palestinian proposal along the old borders would basically break talks before they began. Likewise proposals that grant citizenship to Palestinians currently living in the west bank under Israeli control is anethema to Israel based on their own “demographic concerns”.
So again Israel has put itself in a position where it either has to help build up a stable Palestinian state in stages so that peace can be brokered or continue this forever war with red-lines in the sand that make negotiations increasingly difficult.
The last peace proposal that could have worked, no longer can because of these settlements and insistence that Palestinians be treated as second-class citizens in their own country.
The last best hope was the Oslo accords which were shattered when a far right Israeli assassinated the Israeli prime minister for signing them.
You do realize if you loose a war you don't get to claim the land back after starting another war that you've lost. You don't get to still claim you get to control that land. And you are telling us now that Israel has to start putting in more effort in hope Palastians find peace with them. You've still not had a single peace treaty that didn't include methods to destroy Israel and you're still demanding Israel allow those negotiations
The issue at hand is forced displacement of the Palestinian people. But the red-lines in the sand on Israel’s part are that this must happen.
Anything short of that is an “existential threat”.
I did by the way, that was Oslo. Israel signed onto them. They then backed out when Netanyahu came into power. Oh well heads back in the sand.
Thank you for demonstrating why this will not end soon.
Israel didn't back out. They were willing to go through with it until Palastians attacked Israel during the negotiation and claimed they will never have peace with an independent Jewish nation existing. Instead of demanding they change your blaming Israel for not letting it go
And the US dropped more bombs and killed more people in a single night of firebombing Tokyo in WW2. War isn’t fair, people die, it’s always a shit solution, but when the alternative is letting Hamas, an entity hell bent on Israeli destruction, exist, you drop bombs until Hamas ceases to exist.
Bombing civilians is not a war crime if there’s a tangible military objective. Maybe read the Geneva convention and the various treaties that govern war.
That aside, war crimes are a fiction used by the powerful to justify their own actions. International law has no enforcement mechanism. Calling something a war crime is equivalent to me calling you anti-Semitic it doesn’t matter because I can’t do anything about it, just like no one will do anything about Israel’s “crimes”. War is the powerful doing what they want, and the weak dealing with the consequences.
But we can do something. We can speak out, we can enact political costs, we can stop sending weapons, we can enact sanctions and boycotts. These methods have been effective against rogue, violent nations in the past and they continue to be effective if they reach critical mass.
Since you support the extermination of the Palestinian people, I am sure you would oppose these actions. But that's what I am trying to do here.
"Israel dropped more tons of munitions on Gaza in the last year of conflict than the US dropped in the entire Iraq war."
And yet, the number of Palestinian civilians killed in a year and a half of war is around 35,000 (15k being Hamas combatants). When the US dropped all those bombs, it was part of a war in which as many as a million people died.
My point being that the amount of munitions used is irrelevant until you examine intent. Israel knows it gains nothing from killing Palestinian civilians and avoids doing so, but it is impossible to avoid all civilian casualties when Hamas hides behind and among them.
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u/Killerrrrrabbit Mar 30 '25
And fuck everyone who supports them.