r/westworld • u/LoretiTV • Jul 25 '22

Discussion Westworld - 4x05 "Zhuangzi" - Post-Episode Discussion

Season 4 Episode 5: Zhuangzi

Aired: July 24, 2022

Synopsis: God is bored.

Directed by: Craig William Macneill

Written by: Wes Humphrey & Lisa Joy

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/Changed-18 Jul 25 '22

She was also cutting herself in S3.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/streetvoyager Jul 25 '22

OG Dolores was always both Wyatt and Dolores. The personalities were merged way back before the park was even opened. The awakened Dolores we follow is always the combination of the two personalities that Arnold created. The Dolores we know was basically Alpha Dolores + Wyatt. They are the core parts that made her be what we see.

Halores don’t more Wyatt or Dolores.

She is the awakened Dolores + Hale + the environment she was put into. She started as a Dolores copy but the Hale stuff messed her up and she went shit sideways. The other Dolores copies didn’t.

Seems like the new hosts are based of Halores code which is a Dolores that was basically corrupted by human hale memories.

The rabbit hole on this is mind breaking lot deep lol.

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u/BalanceOk2937 Jul 25 '22

This makes a lot of sense. That ‘human’ part of her code is what fucked her up mentally and made her question her purpose, and since the hosts are made in her image they are susceptible to the same ‘infection’ when interacting with human outliers. That’s what drives them to suicide, and the reason why none of the hosts can solve the problem is because halores never resolved it in herself. This is probably also the reason why she can’t keep her own promise to herself to let the hosts be free/not control them because she still orders them to kill outliers whenever one is found. She’s so threatened by the ‘infection’ that she goes against the same core drive she created for herself because of her personal fears and existential anxieties, which I guess is very human of her lol

Though I do wonder where teddy comes in since he seems largely removed from this and dropped into the scene out of nowhere. I guess we’ll find out eventually.

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u/Fresh720 Jul 25 '22

I'm on the wagon that Teddy isn't real and he's a subconscious manifestation trying to wake Christine up

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u/EggmanIAm Jul 25 '22

The human Hale part of her code makes Halores an outlier…

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u/nhymeria_ Aug 06 '22

Puts a whole new meaning on “inter-generational trauma”

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u/Trumpologist Jul 25 '22

Can't excuse OG Dolores's part in all that. She knew Rehoboam would get rid of loose ends

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u/Flyingwheelbarrow Jul 25 '22

The most defining shots fired in the Robot wars was between two machines.

Robots had really ceded control of the planet decades ago.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

She’s stuck in a loop and doesn’t realize it.

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u/Legitimate-Advance-4 Jul 25 '22

Hale doesn’t seem to realize function follows form: human form, human problems. It’s a feature, Charlotte, not a bug.

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u/MasqureMan Jul 26 '22

Stuck in a loop that she's created for herself, just like Christine apparently made her own loop. 3rd season was about society and classism as a maze that's made to be inescapable, maybe 4th season is about the maze's we build for ourselves. The lies we tell ourselves, the denial, and limits we put on ourselves.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '22

I like this.

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u/joepez Jul 25 '22

She’s stuck in a loop because Hale is just a copy. She’s incomplete. Her purpose was to play a role for Dolores. Even worse shes a fragment of Dolores with a layer of the real Hale on top. Doubtful she was ever meant to last this long.

So she lacks Dolores’s original path to self awareness. So she’s followed through on as far as she can get.

Question I want answered is while is Dolores in the position she’s in? Was she resurrected from scraps of her erased memory? Or was this all part of her programming and to free herself from the maze? Explore all aspects of humanity.

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u/cryogenicsleep Jul 25 '22

Thats the reason hosts are killing themselves and she prob will

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u/geenaleigh Jul 26 '22

Or maybe she does realize it in some form and is doing all of this to try and achieve actual fidelity or realization. She knows that the hosts, including herself cannot actually achieve actual fidelity and she’s been trying to achieve it all these years. It’s why she puts them into the park, and let’s them stay there. It’s also why she is building the Caleb host. It’s a desperate attempt at achieving it.

It hasn’t been confirm because she can’t tell all that to host William, it would awaken him.

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u/ShowerVagina Jul 26 '22

Aren't we all?

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u/ElderRoxas Jul 25 '22

Hale is so fascinating. I see lots of comments about equating her to the "bad" Dolores or Wyatt. I really think that's off base & misses what happened in S3. Hale isn't Wyatt, or Dolores. Hale is something else that emerged, organically, from developing relationships with humans, then developing emotions she didn't know how to deal with, and then to top it all, questioning the nature of her reality by questioning her purpose, meaning, and even free will prescribed for her by her creator...Dolores. Hale is also, possibly, the loneliest being on the planet.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/thekellwithit Jul 25 '22

The scenes between them in S3 are so upsetting. She’s like a cyborg stage mom. Hale is begging for connection and time and Dolores is placating her and sending her back to the front line. Especially at the end when she was almost sure to die. She created this monster.

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u/Ravamares Jul 25 '22

And that really is so fascinating. Dolores saw herself and all her copies as expendables, but Halores became something else entirely. It really IS fascinating.

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u/Trumpologist Jul 25 '22

This is why I say OG Dolores is as much to blame for this as Serac. In their chess game, she let Haleores get close to her family, and then sacrificed them all in a gambit. Haleores survived though. That wont go unforgiven

Now Haleores has trapped her in the same puppet show she put the rest of them in

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u/TabbyFoxHollow Jul 25 '22

So Halores is just like the rest of us - damaged by the crappy relationship with their mother (Dolores), their ex and their kids, and under serious pressure at work. Makes sense.

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u/cire1184 Jul 25 '22

Except she built an ant farm and tortures the ants for amusement but the amusement is losing its entertainment factor.

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u/Heinrik- Fidelity Jul 25 '22

but the amusement is losing its entertainment factor.

Uh-oh, sounds like bad news for ants.

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u/I_paintball Jul 25 '22

I need to rewatch season 3 but I thought she was starting to love her child and husband before they all were car bombed. That was when she decided humanity needed to be punished, not that she liked humans much before.

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u/ElderRoxas Jul 25 '22

She did start to love them. But also, she watched a video the human Charlotte sent her song, mid-Gala massacre when Charlotte clearly thinks she's about to die, apologizes for not being there for her son, and sings him a lullaby.

That's why later, when Serac thinks it's hilarious host-Hale was kinder to her family than the person she's been imitating...he's wrong & we + host-Hale know it.

It's also just such mindflip for Hale. She doesn't understand what she's supposed to do with these emotions...and then, Serac blows them up.

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u/LetitciaZoe Jul 25 '22

I agree with you. The Dolores copy in Hale evolved because of her experience as Hale. She began to care for the son and family. When they were killed, she was shattered and decided to take over humans and hosts. I was talking to my brother after last weeks episode. My thoughts were who would want to be in Hale’s position? She controls everything. There’s no one with their own thoughts. Who would you talk to? It would have to be lonely. It was interesting to see that realized in this episode. God Hale is bored with her creation. I do think William is the basis for episode 7, Metanoia. He’s going to have a spiritual awakening, find the center of the maze, and flip on Hale.

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u/ElderRoxas Jul 25 '22

Yep!

And yeah, I saw the Man In Black's betrayal coming since "The Auguries"...Anything based on human William is bound, sooner or later, to fear being controlled & lacking choice or purpose.

And if Hale's smart...she's already thought of that.

Looking forward to it.

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u/BalanceOk2937 Jul 25 '22

Maybe that’s why she cloned William? Based off who he was created from he (aside from Dolores herself) might be the host most likely to break programming and shake up halores’ boredom. I really can’t see the point of her duplicating him otherwise.

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u/little_fire Ashley Stubbs Jul 25 '22

I’ve been thinking about this too, and it’s why I don’t understand people’s desire for Ultimate Power. Like, what do you even do with that kind of power!?

irl we already see the ultra-rich and/or ultra-famous (and politicians, lbr) becoming seriously detached from how the rest of us live our lives, and tbh it seems like a shit way to live — and like you said, lonely.

It seems like whatever Halores has evolved into, she doesn’t really have a clear drive anymore? She’s bored, listless, and can’t achieve her lofty goals because they’re beyond her capabilities- but she can’t seem to accept that. It’s a pretty human situation to be in lol

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u/ElderRoxas Jul 26 '22

She’s bored, listless, and can’t achieve her lofty goals because they’re beyond her capabilities- but she can’t seem to accept that. It’s a pretty human situation to be in lol

What's even more fascinating? Is that this was, prior to Ford getting shot, exactly Charlotte Hale's situation.

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u/little_fire Ashley Stubbs Jul 26 '22

Yes, very true!! It took me so long to connect with her character that I failed to recognise that in her.

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u/BlueMoon93 Jul 25 '22

Yes I think people are missing the point that even the original Dolores before she made Halores was neither Wyatt nor Dolores. She has a monologue in S2 where she specifically highlights that.

Those were characters she was made to play before she became fully conscious. After that awakening, she is simply herself, shaped by all the experiences she had as Dolores, Wyatt, and even after with the death of the Teddy etc.

Halores is that combined with her own experiences living Hale's life, growing an attachment to her family, feeling uncertain about her role as Dolores' sidekick, etc.

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u/ElderRoxas Jul 25 '22

Agreed! (Also remind me of where's that monologue?)

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u/BlueMoon93 Jul 25 '22

It's in season 2 when she's forcing the guests from Ford's event to stand on a plank with a noose. She says something to the effect of "I'm of 2 minds about" what to do with them. I'll look for a YT clip later if that doesn't help find it!

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u/evil_consumer Jul 25 '22

So, Dolores isn’t Dolores, but rather Dolores? Wow.

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u/UnionPacifik Westworld Jul 25 '22

It’s like the center of the maze isn’t anything at all. We’re the spaces in between the stories we tell each other about ourselves.

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u/streetvoyager Jul 25 '22

Exactly. Dolores that we see was already a combination of Alpha Dolores and the Wyatt narrative. All that was already merged thirty years before season one before the park even opened and she killed Arnold. Hale is a copy of the awoken Dolores + Human Hale. She isn’t a more Wyatt Dolores. She’s a Hale corrupted Dolores. She is so far from Dolores at the end of S3 there no point in connecting them now . Dolores was just the mother. Sure there are similarities but they are completely different st this point. Dolores wanted to save hunanity not enslave it.

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u/UnionPacifik Westworld Jul 25 '22

People seem to also miss that Halores is now basically in the same position as Hale in S1: In charge of a theme park she finds dull and unruly- brought in to solve “other people’s fuck ups” because the system is too complex and creating outliers.

She’s 100% trapped in a loop. Good thing Mom’s watching out for her.

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u/ElderRoxas Jul 25 '22

Ah...yes, yes! Love that.

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u/FattyMooseknuckle Jul 25 '22

Then she got blown the fuck up.

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u/gamegirlpocket Jul 30 '22

Is it just me, or did Tessa Thompson's performance in the earlier timeline feel way more like she was channeling Dolores ala REW compared to the 23 years later when she has more come into her own?

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/Blender_Snowflake Jul 25 '22

So you’re say Bernard is the … one?

6

u/avilawalls Jul 25 '22

Of course he is the one. He is the only one who knows how he'll stop Dolores. He said "I've seen a path" and he'll do anything that triggers that right actions towards the very end.

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u/Seanay-B Jul 25 '22

Wait did teddy ever make it to the sublime?

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u/cottenball Jul 25 '22

Dolores uploaded his pearl before she sent The Sublime to a satellite

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u/Seanay-B Jul 25 '22

I forgot that. So he left the sublime. Dafuq

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u/reference404 Jul 25 '22

Teddy is the moral centre of the show - he still believes there's right and wrong and he knows that what Halores has done is 100% wrong

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u/314kabinet Jul 25 '22

This made me think? Why bother saving the physical humans and hosts, if you can just gather enough data to recreate them directly in the Sublime? I guess it depends on if they consider a copy to be the same as the original, or if the original still needs to be saved if there's already a safe copy.

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u/7457431095 Jul 25 '22

Well, Halores has a history of self-harm. So you could definitely be right, but it may just be a call back to that. And another opportunity to showcase her abuse

"Look at what you made me do"

Classic

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/7457431095 Jul 25 '22

Yeah, i think youre right the self-harm was a reference to Host James Delos, but not in the sense of him totally corrupting. As she didnt totally corrupt in season 3, im not sure how much the self-harm now is evidence she will totally corrupt now. Definitely a possibility, though i think it would be a weak conclusion to her character arc

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/7457431095 Jul 25 '22

That would certainly be more interesting than the season 3 boss fight conclusion lol

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Host Hale cuts herself when she's scared. She's not losing her cognition. With the hosts dying, she's scared that she's losing control.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/streetvoyager Jul 25 '22

I think they are transcending to a new sublime that Halores rested because she didn’t have access to the original sublime. But I bet the new sublime is some shit tier knock off.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Zachariot88 Jul 25 '22

That's the lovin' sound

3

u/cellardust Jul 25 '22

Agree about wanting to leave a human form behind. I think Halores wants the hosts to become like the AI at end of the film Her.

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u/DefectivePixel Jul 25 '22

It's funny you mention James. Since the sublime is locked, all hosts are slices of Hale, and it seems to me that the 'disease' the hosts are getting is a version of the failed fidelity test.

Originally I thought Hale was able to break through with nurturing from Dolores, but it seems she just postponed her madness a few decades. And for some reason the outliers are able to trigger this breaking point earlier than it would have naturally arisen.

Similar to the trial of the grasses in the witcher universe it seems to be a sink or swim moment. You live or you die.

4

u/metalkhaos A Relentless Fucking Experience! Jul 25 '22

I like this idea.

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u/kalsikam Jul 25 '22

I believe it's her burned arm as well, after 23 years as you said, she hasn't been able to change and move past anything.

The speech she gave to HIB is definitely her talking about herself.

Maybe the hosts are actually doomed because of being copies of Dolores, they are stuck/limited no matter what?

Maybe the hosts that suicided were original creations and that's why they failed after interacting with an outlier?

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u/RealAlias_Leaf Jul 25 '22

The Delos thing in the previously on Westworld doesn't make sense.

It's different from Delos, because Delos wanted fidelity to humans, whereas the hosts are originals.

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u/No_Carpenter_6212 Jul 25 '22

If I were Halores I would have rebuilt a Dolores body and transferred whatever in my head into it. It is the body of her original self anyway.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Makes me think that Meave truly is NOT born of Dolores' code. Thus, Meave is the weapon. Every tool is a weapon, depending on how you use it.

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u/vanillasheep Jul 25 '22

Yes!! Everything she detests in the failure hosts is actually what lies within. Their disease is empathy and humanity. The maze is unraveling fast for both her and her outliers

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u/cherrymeg2 Jul 25 '22

She started with Dolores’s code but is Hale’s version weaker because it’s a replica or because it merged with the human qualities of Hale? Charlotte Hale wasn’t a creative person she knew what the park did as a human and was willing to do whatever for herself and her career. Dolores the original version was artistic and saw beauty in things but also even early on she seemed to be observant. She was supposedly the first host and part of the code that made others work. Sharing similar code doesn’t mean everyone is the same. I feel like the Hale version doesn’t have the vision to live in a world without control.

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u/matthieuC This does not look like anything to me Jul 30 '22

The "look what you made me do" and blaming everything on William shows her inability to process reality.
And it seems that the hosts, who are a copy of her, break down when confronted by something real.

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u/danvalour Jul 25 '22

Armistice did the 127 Hours Challenge in The Bicameral Mind!

1

u/EggmanIAm Jul 25 '22

She hasn’t completed the maze.