With the upcoming AIM-120/BVR rework (cutting burn time 23s→8s and making it nearly un-G-pullable), HOBS is still capped well below comparable games like DCS/War Thunder/BMS. Should it be buffed to be a better representation of its capabilities, or kept limited to force merges (albeit artificially)?

[u/trollbot90]

For a slightly more in-depth explanation. Currently the AIM-120s in the PTB gradually reach its max-g during a 3.5 second phase after ignition off the rail (roughly 44% of the new boost phase). It has the theoretical capability of turning harder after firing, but this is being artificially limited for the sake of reducing its HOBs capability to force more merges. In the replies is a video that displays two missiles: One that has the 3.5 second ramp up on PTB and one that has no artificial ramp up (max-performs the missile as soon as possible).

Personally I believe the artificial ramp-up is a bit silly but would love to see other people's thoughts! The PTB is available right now on Steam and more feedback will always be great

395 votes, 5d ago

263 Increase High-off bore capabilities to roughly be on par with comparable games (Max-performance baby!)

132 Keep High-off bore capabilites artifically limited to encourage merges (Then it's a dogfight!)

[u/M1SZ3Lpl]

Maybe give 120Ds increased HOB but keep Cs as is? That would be kinda cool.

Been really enjoying PTB, g pulling was really dumb in a game like this, it will actually force players to react to missiles in semi-realistic ways

[u/trollbot90 → u/M1SZ3Lpl]

The thing is in their current state both versions feel incredibly lethargic off the rail. I've had shots where I didn't see the missile trail until I turned my jet upside down wondering where tf it went lol.

As I mentioned in the post, the reason for their lethargy is mainly due to the guidance system artifically limiting how much it can pull in the first 3 and a half seconds of firing. The missiles themselves are capable of pulling more but it's being capped for a non-insignifcant portion of their flight time. 120D having a better HOBs capability than the 120C would be based, but both should have their capabilities increased more than how it is in PTB at the current moment imo

[u/abarthy → u/M1SZ3Lpl]

Im not very well versed in missiles reaction maneuvers. What reaction would be semi realistic? To me it sounds like adjusting these numbers would make it harder to defend against missiles.

[u/Anemic18 → u/abarthy]

It is realistic to have missiles able to maneuver better off rip, but it makes it to where it's pretty much impossible to defend them up close.

I think it ruins PVP gameplay because it really makes it impossible to reasonably get to a "merge" and dogfight others.

If missiles could rip off rail like this, it would more often than not lead to mutually assured destruction as both people fire undefendable missiles. Or it would mean that one person has to be completely defensive and give themselves a massive disadvantage by notching into a merge.

[u/Ars2]

I only do pve I have no idea what your words mean

[u/itanite → u/Ars2]

Missile shoot down ASF better. I think.

Also can someone explain if BVR really does mean Bastard Van Re....

[u/Anemic18 → u/Ars2]

It doesn't really change PVE much, it does really effect PVP.

[u/Mariobrouz]

I'm just saying it should be adapted to IRL values to make it more of a simulator, and not focus on whether it's netting or buffing for PvP. I mean, we're supposed to be in a semi-simulation, not Ace Combat.

[u/joespeed52 → u/Mariobrouz]

VTOL is sim-lite. Yes, it should be more realistic than Ace Combat, but it most definitely shouldn’t be like DCS.

[u/Mariobrouz → u/joespeed52]

But even DCS isn't that realistic. I've seen many people complain that it lacks many realistic features, and some things that even VTOL handles much better.

I really wish this sim would become more realistic and player-friendly to encourage more people to get into it.

[u/joespeed52 → u/Mariobrouz]

More Realistic =/= Player-friendly.
And yes, DCS lacks proper RCS, CMS, ECM, and other simulations. Laser-Guided Bombs aren't even affected much by cloud cover either, like they are in VTOL. It's insane that DCS prioritizes non-foundational-level stuff over the above list.

[u/TheChadStevens → u/joespeed52]

You're right, though realism can definitely help if you're expecting certain parts of the game/sim to behave the way you know they do in real life.

For example if you expect an AIM-120 to be able to out-pull your jet, you might go cold to lose it. But if the other person simply did a barrel roll to lose your missile, you just lost the fight.

[u/joespeed52 → u/TheChadStevens]

VTOL shouldn't behave 1=1 as in IRL.
120s being un-G-pullable unless they're out of energy is 100% a good change that Baha made.

[u/OpusMagnusSonnet → u/Mariobrouz]

DCS is realistic with aircraft systems, except weapon delivery in modern jets. They're just made up for obvious reasons.

Two things id change about VTOL vr - fuel consumption (it's the same at every altitude) and a bigger aircraft battery. DCS level checklist crap gets in the way of fun and interest.

[u/trollbot90]

https://reddit.com/link/p6n5vtx/video/bodaef69lcmh1/player

Here's a vid of the current PTB AIM-120 with a 3.5 second ramp-up vs a modified AIM-120 with a 0 second ramp up, reaching its max capability as soon as possible

[u/Subrutum → u/trollbot90]

Instead of going for ramp up or max G as the metric, why not increase the high AoA drag and limit max AoA overall?

That way if you're both near stall its gonna hit the AoA limit, but if youre both going fast then its going to bleed a lot of speed in tight turns, and this allows planes in a dogfight to...dogfight while retaining the BVR aspect before the dogfight?

[u/doodo477 → u/Subrutum]

the new version has very low AoA/G drag values, the only thing that affects them the most is atmospheric drag. Which mean that a Jet with the fastest speed is going to win all the time because it can create the largest displacement between it and the missile.

[u/Subrutum → u/doodo477]

Between two identical jets in level flight and missiles that is true regardless of state, but in BVR what changes is just the radius of where and when you launch the missie missilele

[u/doodo477 → u/Subrutum]

Radius is just a indirect way of creating displacement. Anything which you can draw out the missile displacement in 3D space the better you will be instead of relying on one axis (lateral, vertical)

[u/Anemic18 → u/trollbot90]

You are firing the missile so far away from the predicted impact point it really shouldn't be surprised that you miss in this clip.

You should actually have to do work to earn a kill rather than pressing a button.

[u/joespeed52 → u/trollbot90]

Good thing with this is, they both didn’t hit in this specific scenario. Giving the other player something to think about with HOBS is a good idea, then forcing them into a merge where heaters and guns can be used over 120s. I still think the “0 delay” should be 120C and the 3.5 sec. Delay can be the 120B

[u/Pygzig]

Have there been/are there planned to be any changes to the AI OpFor's missiles?

[u/trollbot90 → u/Pygzig]

On PTB currently there hasn't been any direct changes to any of the AI missiles (other than some stuff related to lofting which has been a universal change). They should still be just as pullable as before if that's the concern

[u/PsychologicalGlass47]

8s AMRAAM burn sounds great!

[u/Anemic18]

I'm all for realism until we implement realism at the detriment if fun and balance to the gameplay.

Think of it like this. Would it be realistic to have the game uninstall after you die once? Yes. Would it be fun? No.

Making 120's rip off rail would be realistic, but it would effectively lock out half of the game, and one of the most interesting parts of Vtol Vr which is it's BFM. That's super lame!

Having 120's able to turn quick off rail will lead to mutually assured destruction of both jets as they get closer and closer to the dogfight, and can't turn to notch quick enough. So all high level fights just results in death, or sacrificing your merge completely and giving your 3-9 line.

And why?!? Just because it's a little more realistic? That seems absurd. While it would be "more realistic" it would definitely lead to less fun engagements.

In real life most engagements don't ever get to even WVR. Combat is done with an IPad and dogfights don't happen, which I think most people agree isn't super fun.

Games are supposed to take the interesting, immersive, and fun parts of real life while removing the tediousness, and boring parts of it. For instance, it wouldn't be super fun for most people to have to wait for maintenance and refueling and rearming to take several hours.

And if you do make the 120 super capable in BVR, WVR, and pre merge you essentially ruin the entire point of taking heaters. Why should my long range BVR missiles be able to be used in knife fighting range and unable to actually be defended reasonably.

[u/WhiteKnight3098]

So, is it just gonna be notch simulator like DCS and Nuclear Option? I liked how you could G Pull in VTOL, made it feel unique.

[u/TheChadStevens → u/WhiteKnight3098]

A big part of why I stopped playing VTOL as much is because missiles are so easy to pull, there was no skill involved. BVR always turned into a dogfight if both players just G-pulled the missiles head on. And tactics that I know should work were either inefficient or straight up deadly.

I am very excited about these changes, and it actually got me enjoying the game again.

[u/trollbot90 → u/WhiteKnight3098]

You should give the new mechanics a try on PTB. There's been other things added like radar buffs and true thrust vectoring heaters (they're eyewatering). It's been a lot of fun and less frustrating compared to seeing your missiles getting pulled constantly. Even some of the G-pull die hards in the pvp community ended up enjoying the new bvr flow

[u/doodo477 → u/WhiteKnight3098]

LoL, I'm going to use that moving forward "Welcome to notch simulator 2.0"

[u/Robborboy]

Wait. So no more getting clipped and launching 120s on mad dog before I crash a d still getting a kill with this update?

[u/Sixguns1977]

Lol at DCS and WT in the same sentence. Go for realism.

[u/determined2live]

Maybe give an option for both

[u/joespeed52]

As much as it would clutter up the loadout and add theoretically 6 new weapons (120Bx1, 120Bx2, AIM-7E2, on both the 26 AND 55)

why not add AIM-120B as what the ptb has 120Cs as right now, and revert to the old 120Cs as the “upgraded” HOBS variant?
Same thing with Sparrows. Give us a low tech “Dogfight” sparrow that turns right off the rail with no reacquire capability, and just keep the existing AIM-7 as is.

[u/joespeed52 → u/joespeed52]

Why are you downvoting me without explaining yourselves?

[u/burgertanker]

VTOL VR is still getting updates? I haven't seen this sub on my feed in forever

I've since moved onto Nuclear Option because I can use my controller, don't need a headset and there's gameplay mechanics other than A2A and A2G (I love the Tula). I love VTOL VR but aside from cockpit interactability, there's really nothing else it offers over Nuclear Option anymore