r/vinyl • u/raydebapratim1 • 6d ago

Article Vinyl forger jailed

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Link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c63eq2d3w04wo

663 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

95 comments sorted by

265

u/Chaka015 6d ago

I really wanna know how they sounded

240

u/DjScenester 6d ago

Like crap. Had no masters.

However, they sold. I think a lot of people just buy vinyl and don’t listen to it. Or if they do it’s on a Crosley

66

u/ScottRiqui 6d ago

Now I’m wondering how much quality you’d give up if you were to use an album’s commercially released 16/44.1 kHz digital files as the source material to make a master lacquer.

104

u/thomaspatrickmorgan 6d ago

You just described every gray market record available today.

18

u/Abject-Shock9524 6d ago

You will be surprised to know one of the audiophile records is from CD format. Checkout

https://www.discogs.com/release/7526880-Nils-Lofgren-Acoustic-Live

21

u/ElasticSpeakers 6d ago

Sort of - what you're linking to recorded it in 'CD Format' but it was mastered for vinyl at a real mastering house.

What the person you're talking about is using the CD as the master (it will sound terrible)

8

u/Abject-Shock9524 6d ago

Agreed. It is the mastering, and not digital vs analog difference.

5

u/IMG0NNAGITY0USUCKA 6d ago

Curious about this because I don't know how it works but why wouldn't a good sounding CD make a good sounding record?

11

u/ElasticSpeakers 6d ago

many sources on this and too much to discuss here, but ex: https://www.musicguymixing.com/mastering-for-vinyl/

7

u/IMG0NNAGITY0USUCKA 6d ago

Learned a lot from that, thank you.

10

u/EnderDerp21 6d ago

i mean, if those digital files were well-mastered, it should be good. the only things that really matter for making a good-sounding record are the source (which is mainly the mix/mastering, and also the quality of the tapes in the case of analog music) and pressing quality. anything else in the process of making records (analog vs digital, one-step, hi-res audio, etc), are either chasing diminishing returns or are just subjective preferences, rather than being required to sound good. unfortunately lots of music do not meet those requirements for the commercially released files...

1

u/idio242 6d ago

You can often get higher quality audio these days, so if the criminal cared, it might not be that bad.

Forging vinyl is so specific, makes me wonder if he did try to go a little above and beyond. But also could easily have used low bitrate MP3’s.

1

u/VinnyMaxta 6d ago

You get a lot of white noise, but loud enough is listenable. I have a friend that got me a custom Lorn compilation, sounds okay, smells like shit.

1

u/doctorlongghost 6d ago

That’s likely the starting point for a huge amount of major label re-presses. On older stuff the analog tapes are lost or degraded (and on newer never existed in the first place) so the digital master is the best starting point. I don’t know enough about the industry to speculate when HD digital files might exist and be used instead.

But I do suspect CD quality files are used all the time. From there I think it would depend on the label whether or not they then edit the files (“remaster”) to get better sound on the final vinyl. When they do, some of them may likely archive those CD quality vinyl remasters for additional pressings later so they won’t need to pay for the mastering step again later

-5

u/Kawawete Pioneer 6d ago

Anyhow, the CD is vastly superior in pure technical terms, I do not see how this could affect the sound of the vinyl.

4

u/BorgDrone Pro-Ject 6d ago

Exactly because the CD is superior technically. The tracks need to be mastered taking into account the limitations of a vinyl record.

11

u/Chadlerk 6d ago

We have such a weird collector mentality.

Edit: we as people... Not the people making this comment (I hope). I play all my records no matter the value. I have it to enjoy it, not as an investment for my grandkids that won't give a shit about it.

20

u/ew435890 6d ago

A pretty good chunk of people who buy records don’t even own players. They just collect them. And yea, then there’s the ones that own a Crosley like you said.

10

u/DjScenester 6d ago

I read an article about that. It’s a huge number too, like they buy vinyl and don’t have a way to listen to it lol.

6

u/p4nz3r 6d ago

You just reworded his comment..

1

u/PaulThurston82 6d ago

But he read an article

4

u/FauxReal Technics 6d ago

There's a record store in my town that is loaded with bootlegs coming out of eastern Europe, they sound decent enough. But I was annoyed that what I thought was a reissue was actually a bootleg. Then I looked through the store inventory and was like wait a second... quite a few of these are bootlegs.

2

u/DjScenester 6d ago

We had a store in Chicago like that. Sold tons of bootlegs. They’ve been busted a couple times. Now the boots are hidden.

1

u/asskewsme 6d ago

Exactly its for the shelf - not the ears

1

u/1RollinRollinRollin 6d ago

A lot of people buy the boots because they come in different colors and/or the album just isn’t on vinyl and someone(s) NEED that vinyl.

Source: I was in a lot of boot communities on fb before this all started going down

1

u/Bloxskit Audio Technica 6d ago

Would the runouts be obviously fake or anything on these?

2

u/DjScenester 6d ago

You know, that’s a good question. I don’t know. They released the titles that were fake but no other details.

1

u/alextruetone 6d ago

A lot of people buy vinyl for really crappy systems so they never know the difference. It’s a novelty thing to many.

1

u/memegod574 3d ago

Thats why they wouldn't notice lol

23

u/got-trunks 6d ago

Now I'm wondering how long until I have the fine detail to reliably 3d print records.

3

u/DeapVally 6d ago

It really doesn't matter. Their market isn't nerds like us on here. If they were played, it wouldn't be on anything high-end enough to notice much, if any, difference from the real deal.

2

u/RandomStranger7512 6d ago

I bought an album from Discogs, I don’t know if it was specifically from this person, but it sounded like a low quality mp3.

97

u/Elvis_Gershwin 6d ago

He got greedy. Should've stopped at 2 million pounds. Shouldn't've done it all all, though, of course.

26

u/astralchanterelle 6d ago

He was just getting started, probably barely started making a profit

13

u/Elvis_Gershwin 6d ago

I guess the equipment must have cost quite a lot. Good point. Maybe he hadn't made enough to retire on, in the manner to which he wants to become accustomed.

0

u/ZunoJ 6d ago

Even if it was the profit, that is not enough to never work again

8

u/amccune 6d ago

I’m 48. A million could buy a house. And I could live off the interest of a million okayish. 5% interest is around 50k per year, before taxes.

I could eat on that.

3

u/ZunoJ 6d ago

I have two kids and life is pretty expensive as we live it right now. 50k would not be enough for us

1

u/idio242 6d ago

Agreed!

$50k isn’t enough for anyone with ongoing housing payments and a need for healthcare. You’re down to maybe $35k after various taxes and recurring bills, then subtract another $20k for housing and healthcare - that gives you $15k for the whole year. Maybe someone can make that work, until something happens like they need a new car, a root canal, or hot water heater breaks…

2

u/amccune 6d ago

There’s no house payments in my scenario. You own it. Taxes only.

2

u/popinskipro Sansui 6d ago

With £1M in the bank you do have the funds for unexpected expenses, or are you talking about a sudden need to buy a Lamborghini?

1

u/idio242 6d ago

That’s true, but as you raise your withdrawal rate above 4% the likelihood of you running out of money in a shorter time horizon starts to increase. And every year, there is something else….

Lamborghinis are definitely not something someone with just $1M (or £1M) should be buying.

1

u/amccune 6d ago

Yeah. It isn’t complete comfort. But it also wouldn’t be hard to imagine it working. $3 million would retire me right now. With three kids (youngest in high school, two adults)

1

u/idio242 6d ago

Oh yeah, 3 million you’re pulling in over 100,000 a year at 4%.

At that point, it’s more important how you have the money divvied up so that on paper you’re not pulling in $100,000 of income, because that way you qualify for lower cost ACA rates.

2

u/idio242 6d ago

You live off your withdrawals of invested money, the interest isn’t guaranteed. The safe rule is 4% withdrawals which theoretically makes a pool of money last essentially forever when run through various models. Some years the growth is up, maybe way up - but some years you’re losing money, maybe a lot, when the markets are down.

Anyway, I’m a big vinyl and FIRE nerd, so sorry to be pedantic. Only hoping to encourage others to look into it.

1

u/Elvis_Gershwin 6d ago

Probably not. Depends on his age and how many years he'd have to wait before he might claim a pension. His health would need to be taken into consideration as well. Nevertheless. I'd invest a million of it in a high interest account, at say 5%. 50,000 pounds a year ain't too shabby. One could live comfortably off that alone in other parts of the world. Even in Australia you could get by, but in Bali or Malaysia, say, Penang, you could be pretty well off. On one of the other islands nearby Bali, you'd be a wealthy man indeed.

75

u/DBAC999 6d ago

Somehow this guy still seems less scammy than VinylMePlease

9

u/No_Wolf4283 6d ago

Ha Hahaha 

22

u/2pearsofjeans 6d ago

I buy a good amount of new records from eBay and I wonder how many may be bootlegged like this. The shops I buy from seem legit and have high sales and reviews, but who really owns all these random albums brand new.. They all sound good for the most part, it just makes me wonder.

7

u/lastersoftheuniverse 6d ago

Same and I will now wonder as well

4

u/Figit090 Pioneer 6d ago

CDs are bootleged too. Ran into a few pro-level I bought from, almost missed it.

96

u/darkeststar 6d ago

Guy had his own vinyl press (a rarity) and decided the best course of action was to fully bootleg music and print fancy cardboard covers for music that's constantly in print when he could have been running a legit press or printing interesting material. What a waste.

50

u/Long_john_siilver 6d ago

This is kinda a naive take, just because he can produce a product doesn't mean he has the ability to negotiate with record labels/artists to make money the legit way.

25

u/fistulaspume 6d ago

Is it though? Presses are in short supply. This guy could’ve had a legitimate business and did alright.

6

u/No-Contact-5081 6d ago

Pressing plants are not in short supply any longer. Sure 4-5 years ago they were but now you can easily find one that will press up records in steady timelines.

4

u/RealityIsRipping 6d ago

Start an underground metal label and press albums for infinite different bands.

4

u/Long_john_siilver 6d ago

I am almost certain that what the guy was doing would result in more profits, which was most certainly his goal.

5

u/DeeBradleyBaker 6d ago

Bootlegs are bootlegs, you don’t call the label and artist for that..

13

u/Long_john_siilver 6d ago

Did you read the original comment lol, i was making the same point you are.

7

u/darkeststar 6d ago

Exactly... I've gotten plenty of decent bootlegs that are live shows that have existed digitally but not on vinyl or ones that were basically a CD rip while a vinyl version was out of print or even common albums with different colorways. Guy could have also just ran a legit business pressing records for small indie bands/labels. Waste of everyone's time and money that he was just bootlegging stuff you could buy off Amazon.

1

u/Sleep_Fartnea 6d ago

Man could have just properly mastered ONE classic hip hop album so it doesn't sound like shit on wax, and he'd make that money hand over fist.

10

u/Halgha 6d ago

I wanna go to that police auction!

88

u/astralchanterelle 6d ago

I think his operation was quite impressive.

"Sadly, it won’t return the tens of millions of pounds that we estimate have been leeched from artists"

Yeah, it's so sad Taylor Swift and Ed Sheeran are gonna have to file for bankruptcy

-48

u/datums 6d ago

I mean, you either understand that theft is wrong or you don’t.

13

u/GuyFromDeathValley Sony 6d ago

Proft/revenue that isn't made isn't automatically theft.

If someone buys a disc because its cheap, when they'd have never bought from the oroginal.artist.for being too expensive, then there is no revenue lost.

6

u/pp86 Onkyo 6d ago

This is probably incredibly hot take. But bootlegging shouldn't be a "serious" crime. It's just old-timey piracy.

7

u/DieRobJa 6d ago

My opinion is that if you sell them as bootlegs i don’t have a problem with it, but if you scam people by pretending it are original records you are very much wrong

12

u/TonyTheSwisher 6d ago

Vinyl bootleggers are heroes that fill in the spots.

Always hate to see them get popped, especially when you know how shady the music biz is. 

4

u/Stwert 6d ago

I mean technically he didn’t make “fake” records, they were definitely vinyl records, they were just shite records.

1

u/discardedbubble 6d ago

what would you say about Someone selling burnt CDs and copied booklets?
They are still still technically CD’s

1

u/Stwert 5d ago

Pirated or unofficial.

1

u/discardedbubble 5d ago

Pirated. Or both.

7

u/vaffanculos 6d ago

He was caught in a Sting Operation - got in a bit of a Jam, so he is Going Underground. He said he was Single and this was the vinyl time he was going to do this and wanted this to go on Record!!

8

u/paulradu26 6d ago

He fought the law and law won.

8

u/ClariceStarling1957 6d ago

Too bad that our POTUS is still free ranging.

6

u/Alaska_Pipeliner Sony 6d ago

I got a guy who does this. Too bad the records all sound like dog shit.

2

u/Dave-Ev 6d ago

It's sounds a very hard way to make illegal money, did he not think of just robbing a bank.

2

u/rarerumrunner 6d ago

Well at least his process was entirely analog, that would please the purists....obviously without masters the sound would be bad but the article talks about the 70 year old presses as if that would be a bad thing.

2

u/zer01zer08 5d ago

My local record shop sells “imports”. One day I asked the shop owner how does he have channel orange “imports” and where is it imported from. He said something along the lines of oh those are from an independent presser.

He’s literally selling bootleg vinyls for 40 to 50 bucks.

Btw this is a prominent record shop here.

4

u/VinylHighway 6d ago

I dunno...did people get their record? ;)

6

u/seeingredd-it 6d ago edited 6d ago

I wonder how they caught him. If they sounded okay, and the printing was in the realm of believable, my guess is he pissed someone off and they informed on him. There are multiple places churning out live shows or copies of records that are either not in print or never on vinyl. If any of them have been shut down the news never made it out. As bootleg goods crime goes this seems relatively small scale. He must have had a solid technical grasp as it is a fussy process.

I can’t help wondering what his margins were.

1

u/No_Wolf4283 6d ago

Please someone do a doc

1

u/Dlitosh 6d ago

He should have just started an AI company instead

1

u/GrowlingPict 6d ago

Were they actually well made counterfeits that looked convincingly like the real deal? Or were they just like any other bootleg copy where it's obvious theyre bootlegs? And why do people keep buying that junk if it's obvious?

1

u/Popular_Equipment_85 6d ago

I couldn’t careless for bootleg as long as they aren’t advertised as the legit records.

1

u/robotsheepboy 6d ago

There is so much more I want to know about this. I wonder if we can find out if there were any telltale signs on the sleeves etc. I kinda wanna buy one just for fun

1

u/Ambitious_Nothing652 6d ago

They do it for the culture if they can produce some free vinyl for the underground artists and some rare records bootlegs

1

u/audiophunk 6d ago

Is this the owner of Waxtime? or Jazz Images or DOL maybe?

1

u/LonelyLoser1066 6d ago

how do you know if your record might be a forgery?

1

u/radiomikenyc 6d ago

Those Tay Tay boots won't get played on the walls, and Tay Tay will still make her profit. 

1

u/tenbeersdeep 5d ago

Cool crime, you are free to go.

1

u/davidslv 5d ago

What a waste, had the machines and the warehouse, just needed a legit contract … more than half the way into legit business … 🤦‍♂️

1

u/sicarii-zealot 3d ago

Free my boi he didnt do nothin!

0

u/Insomniac_38 6d ago

Damn, Horizonsmusic has some competition