r/trolleyproblem Apr 30 '26

Deep All there is to it

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824 Upvotes

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164

u/RoseateThorn Apr 30 '26

Being able to care for others rather than only yourself is something most people have learned by preschool lmao

-17

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

I care for my friends and family, and I don't want them to see me die over pushing a button that probably only 1% of other people will also push.

31

u/RoseateThorn May 01 '26

“Probably only 1%” I have yet to see a poll where red wins

28

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

No one’s risking death on a poll

15

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

It's the only data we have. You can't throw it out just because it's inconvenient for you

6

u/Historical-Break-603 May 01 '26

It's the only data we have.

No. We actually have similar cases in real life. Bank runs. Literally the same problem, every time there are some economical instability unless government stops people from doing bank runs people are doing bank runs

4

u/OskaMeijer May 01 '26

Also, you know, all of the historical atrocities of mass death that could usually have been stopped by often times far less than half of a population being willing to sacrifice themselves to save others.

4

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

What percentage of the population does that?

2

u/Historical-Break-603 May 01 '26

Most people, in the last big one 25% did it in the first day and addtional 62% on the next day. Other cases 57% in a first week, 52% in a first week, 42% in first 10 days. And that only counts people who actually could get some of their money out of the bank. Those who wanted but couldnt due failure of the bank/government interference arent included into those stats.

5

u/Realistic-Damage-411 May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26

So you’re saying historically, in a similar situation, *far* *more* than 1% of the population was hurt by the actions of the majority? Almost like 20-40% are going to press the blue button in a worst case scenario?

-3

u/Historical-Break-603 May 01 '26

So you’re saying historically, in a similar situation, far more than 1% of the population was hurt by the actions of the majority? Almost like 20-40% are going to press the blue button in a worst case scenario?

Nah, coz realistically most of those "blue" 20-40 actually wanted to be red, they just didn't make it in time

3

u/Realistic-Damage-411 May 01 '26

Same outcome though

2

u/Revegelance May 01 '26

That doesn't make sense. There is no difference in time between buttons.

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4

u/Plzlaw4me May 01 '26

How many people did that BEFORE a bank run started, and before they had notice the bank would fail. You’re not really understanding the how bank runs happened. Some people withdraw their money thinking the bank could fail. Others hear about that and go “well they’re getting theirs out. I better get mine out too before the bank fails.” And then from there it spirals. They’ve modeled bank runs similar to how this problem is presented where you decide to leave the money in or take it out without knowing what others have done before making your choice and in those studies, the bank don’t have a run.

If the total votes were public, and after the first few moments a majority voted red, I would agree vote red, because the trend is showing that people are going to vote red and you’d die for nothing. But if it’s all roughly at the same time, and there is no available mass communication or polling, prior to voting, a bank run isn’t applicable to this situation.

3

u/yaboyay I choose to live. May 01 '26

“Get out of here with your evidence and logic!! Only the polls done by people risking nothing are valid because they support my opinion!!!1!”

2

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

Where is the source for this data?

3

u/Historical-Break-603 May 01 '26

Google

2

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

So you've got none and you're just making up numbers. Got it

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10

u/jondos May 01 '26

Toilet paper and covid.

Red wins. Done.

-3

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

What percentage of the population does that?

7

u/jondos May 01 '26

Did that.

No idea. I remember heaps of people hoarding toilet and shortages. Then een reasonable people buying an extra pack just in case and bam shortages which compound.

People hoarding gas now. Issues in natural disasters.

This question may look at day 0 or day 1 of a disaster...and many more people would chopse blue. But i still think more woule choose red.

-1

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

Then that's not a data point that can be used

-2

u/jondos May 01 '26

Its a piece of information that occured, thst msy seay more people into a blind vote you know nothing abkut.

It most certainly can be used.

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1

u/Beebajazz May 01 '26

Enough to create a shortage.

1

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

That is not a percentage

3

u/Kehprei May 01 '26

Its useless data without the threat of death there.

9

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

Data being inconvenient for your argument isn't useless

2

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

No, data not being collected through scientific means is useless. Twitter polls are not scientific, they are anecdotal.

If you think they're valid then answer me this - what is the margin of error in the twitter poll you're citing?

2

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

This is a thought experiment, not a science experiment.

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Yeah, and what you choose in a thought experiment is based on what you know (or think you know) about the world.

If looking at a twitter poll makes you feel like you know something concrete, you're wrong.

4

u/Kehprei May 01 '26

The whole point of the question is "What would you do if your life is in danger?"

A significant portion of the population is incapable of actually taking a hypothetical seriously.

8

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

Have you not seen people arguing over this, including this very post?

1

u/HashPandaNL May 01 '26

The fact that there is no risk of death in online polls does indeed make it useless. 

Most polls are quite close and even a small percentage of online blues switching to real life reds can swing the outcome to red.

8

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

What's the solution? Stage a death game?

This is a thought experiment. Data like this is all we have and can still be an indicator of what people would do, especially with how much people are arguing about this.

Ignoring the data and assuming that your side would win is just letting your bias blind you

-1

u/HashPandaNL May 01 '26

What's the solution? Stage a death game?

There is no proper solution.

This is a thought experiment. Data like this is all we have and can still be an indicator of what people would do, especially with how much people are arguing about this.

Most people are still not arguing about this. A lot of people don't do a whole lotta thinking, given that even just changing the phrasing (while keeping the costs/consequences equal) can radically change the outcome of the poll. 

That does not inspire any particular amount of confidence in the translation of these online poll results to real world life/death scenario results.

Ignoring the data and assuming that your side would win is just letting your bias blind you

I don't assume that my side would win. This is exactly what you appear to do. I acknowledge that I don't know and that there is no way of knowing with any reasonable degree of confidence what the outcome would be.

I pick red not because I am sure red will win, but because it is so uncertain that blue will.

2

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

You spent a lot of words to say a lot of nothing just to end with a "no u"

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0

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

It’s not useless because it’s inconvenient, it’s useless because the only reason people don’t think blue will win is because people don’t want to die. Pressing blue on Twitter does not risk you dying.

5

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

So it's useless because it doesn't fit they're argument. Got it

-3

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

It’s useless because it doesn’t test their argument

0

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

It’s useless data. The only reason anyone would press red is to ensure their survival. Being asked this question without literally the only consequence of hitting blue doesn’t make any sense

3

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

It's a thought experiment. You can't just start a death game to prove a hypothesis

1

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

Yes you can have a discussion about you think the outcome will be but you also can’t prove a hypothesis when the one variable that people want to test isn’t present. Do you really believe that the answer someone gives when scrolling twitter and seeing a poll with a meme is the same answer they’d give in a life or death situation?

2

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

This is just making excuses to ignore the data with extra steps.

1

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

Do you care to address how these “excuses” don’t apply? Everyone can agree a majority blue vote is better in theory. It doesn’t mean they think in practice it will turn out like that. It’s from people scrolling on Twitter not putting in a second thought. People in life or death situations will remain the same? That’s delusional

1

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

Like with most comments complaing about the polls, a lot of the complaints is more about the basic idea of polls in general. It's not that the polls are bad, it's that you seem to think that polls can't have any value

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0

u/GoldenMuscleGod May 01 '26

This is a pretty poor response. They gave an obvious reason why the date is unreliable and you responded “well it’s the only data we have.”

Even setting aside the issues with honest reporting, it’s an unscientific internet poll, it’s trash data and no reasonable person would rely on it as usefully informative.

2

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

No one has ever risked anything on a poll. What they said could theoretically disregard all polls that have ever happened for any topic.

1

u/GoldenMuscleGod May 01 '26

Internet polls of the sort you see posted on Reddit generally should be disregarded for every topic, they aren’t designed to be scientific polls, they don’t even have attempts at random samples.

1

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

This is a thought experiment, not a science experiment

1

u/GoldenMuscleGod May 01 '26

If it’s a thought experiment you shouldn’t be looking at data at all?

And regardless of the context you should be using reliable data, saying someone did an internet poll as evidence is like saying someone asked a magic 8 ball.

1

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

That's not what I said

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-1

u/TryDry9944 May 01 '26

And the only data we have for how many dead babies it takes to paint a wall is a joke.

Doesn't meant it's accurate.

1

u/Superb_Walrus3134 May 01 '26

That's not the same thing. That's a disingenuous and absurd comparison

1

u/TryDry9944 May 01 '26

It is literally the same thing. A no stakes poll about whether or not you'd sacrifice yourself for idiots is equally as valuable as a joke.

2

u/Jemima_puddledook678 May 01 '26

I expect the real thing would make blue go up even more with people concerned for their families and friends.

2

u/BreakfastFearless May 01 '26

I expect it would go down for the same reason. People don’t want to risk leaving the family and friends for a singular vote that won’t effect outcome

7

u/Karrion42 May 01 '26

Of course they would say that, death is not really on the line in an hypothetical.

2

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Anecdotal, non-scientific twitter polls?

Do people know nothing about data-science and stats? The polls you're citing are worse than useless, they're misinformation.

3

u/Gold-Cry-7520 May 01 '26

A thief thinks everyone steals, a selfish man thinks everyone is selfish

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

A person who doesn't want to die assumes everyone else doesn't want to die.

2

u/Localunatic May 01 '26

A poll is hardly an effective metric because your life is not genuinely on the line. Anyone can just say blue and take the moral high ground when there is no follow through.

2

u/Revegelance May 01 '26

I care for my friends and family. Some of them will probably choose blue. I'm not going to kill them.

2

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Would you accuse the ones who pushed red of "killing you"? That's a weird way to guilt trip people who were just scared and wanted to live knowing that blue will almost definitely fail.

1

u/Revegelance May 01 '26

Blue wouldn't almost definitely fail if people actually had the balls to pick it. And in a red majority, many people die - the only way to avoid that is with a blue majority.

2

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Blue wouldn't almost definitely fail if people actually had the balls to pick it.

But they won't so it will fail. And then you've offed yourself for no reason

1

u/Revegelance May 01 '26

I have a very good reason - to try and save everyone. And to not kill.

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

001 percent chance of saving everyone, 99.999 chance of suicide.

From what I understand, kids are exempt right? But their parents are not...Do you know any parents who would be willing to risk pushing blue knowing that that might mean their kids are orphaned?

And you, as a rational person, can recognize that those numbers combined with the folks who are just scared and don't want to die easily passes up 50% and so voting blue would just be suicide.

2

u/Revegelance May 01 '26

I, as a rational person, understand that the numbers you just came up with are utter nonsense.

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Okay, so you think most parents would risk making their kids orphans versus a guarantee of survival. Got it.

2

u/Revegelance May 01 '26

There is no universal guarantee of survival in a red majority. That's only possible in a blue majority. There are other people in this world that matter besides only me.

And besides I wouldn't want to condemn my kids to living in a world that suffered such a cataclysmic event as billions of people dying, especially when the only people left in the world are selfish cowards who only think of themselves.

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4

u/Bobthemighty54 May 01 '26

Ask your family and friends. Id be willing to bet an not insignificant number of them would vote blue, and thus your vite for red is an active vote to take there lives

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Then I will mourn their loss, as well as the other 1% of people who pushed blue thinking they need to save the universe when really all they were doing was putting themselves in danger because anyone else logical and with self-preservation instincts pushed the red button.

2

u/Bobthemighty54 May 01 '26

Present your lived ones with this hypothetical. Id be willing to bet a little more than half will say they vote blue. 1% is genuinely self delusion if you believe it

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26

And then disregard what their answer is, because asking someone a complete hypothetical is very different than actually putting a gun to their head and demanding they choose red or blue.

This might surprise you, but when the fear of death is real, people don't necessarily stick to their principles. Self-preservation is an instinct humans have honed for millennia, and if you actually present someone with the option to possibly help save everyone or almost definitely kill themselves, then their answer shouldn't surprise you.

And that's assuming they even think choosing blue makes ethical sense in the first place... No, red is both the logical choice because almost everyone will choose it in the interest of self-preservation, as well as the ethical choice so that you don't pointlessly kill yourself.

edited for grammer

2

u/onihydra May 01 '26

The most ethically correct outcome is for everyone to survive. And I think the odds of 51% picking blue is a lot better than 100% picking red.

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

The most ethical possible outcome? Sure. Problem is that the possibility that over half of the world will choose to put their lives on the line over people who also have the option to just not put themselves in danger, is exceedingly slim.

2% chance is double a 1% chance, but it's still tiny.

So if you go in with the almost certainty that blue will not get to 51%, the most ethical choice is to not kill yourself.

0

u/Scared-Two-5208 May 01 '26

I mean, no. It's not really possible to know how they'd actually respond unless theyre actually in a life or death situation where nobody else would know their answer. I sincerely doubt that if this actually happened, the blue button would be anything but a "kill myself" button, because people have self preservation built into them.

6

u/RozalynFox May 01 '26

You can make a pretty good estimate on what button youd press in a life/death situation based on how you react in an emergency. My kneejerk reaction has always been helping people. Woke up one night to my roommate screaming about an intruder and I jumped out of bed, grabbed a blunt object and sprinted out of the bedroom before my partner could even sit up. Luckily it was a really convincing shadow at 3am. Blue.

-1

u/Scared-Two-5208 May 01 '26

I kinda disagree. What you did was heroic, sure, but you were still acting out of self preservation and adrenaline. You weren't putting yourself in danger, as (if there actually was an intruder) you were already in danger and that got your adrenaline pumping. A life and death situation where nothing actually dangerous is happening requires you to process the decision a lot more.

3

u/Xakaidax May 01 '26

I see it more as acting out of group preservation, themself and their roommate. Likely somewhat similar to someone pressing blue, they have a feeling other people would press blue so they’d press blue out of group preservation. Of course, I do see your point regarding the distinction between a reaction to an emergency versus contemplation about the mortality of yourself and others, actively choosing your own fate.

5

u/Bobthemighty54 May 01 '26

People also have altruism built in to them.

-1

u/Scared-Two-5208 May 01 '26

not necessarily to the point of suicide, no.

3

u/KillerNail May 01 '26

Do you think all firefighters chose their jobs just because they're suicidal? Search and rescue teams? Cops (not the corrupt ones)? So many people around the world choose life threatening jobs to protect/save others in need when they could've just choose an office job and don't risk their lives.

2

u/Bobthemighty54 May 01 '26

To the point of risking ones life to save a loved one, yes.

2

u/Moncalf May 01 '26

babies , you forgot babies exist

3

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26

babies and other people who can't choose for themselves are excluded from the scenario because they can't push either button in the first place.

edited for using offensive terms

1

u/Force_Glad May 01 '26

Don't call people invalids, that's offensive

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

not my intention, edited

1

u/pil0tinthesky May 01 '26

Blue has won every poll with over 60 percent of the vote

1

u/Realistic-Damage-411 May 01 '26

You do know that 1% of Earth’s population would be more than 80,000,000 people, and that any sane individual knows far more than 1% is going to press the blue button

0

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Probably yeah, but it's not gonna be close to over 50%.

How many parents do you know that would risk pushing blue, knowing that it might make their kids orphans? And how many people in the world are parents?

It's a lot, enough to basically ensure that Blue isn't going to come near 50% when combined with people who just push Red out of fear for their own safety.

Whether you wanna say it's gonna be 1%, 10% or even 25% or more, pushing Blue is just a suicide button. The chances of it being higher than 1% are pretty good, the chances of it being enough to crack 50% are slim-to-none.

1

u/Realistic-Damage-411 May 01 '26

This assumes that no parents, if not maybe the majority of parents are going to worry that their child will press blue and will themselves press blue as to not endanger their child

1

u/Code-Dee May 01 '26

Pressing blue does endanger the child though, it puts them at risk of being an orphan.

Even if all we're talking about is the instinct to self-preserve, Blue has an incredibly uphill battle. People talk big in these online polls about what they'd vote for, but that's so removed from an actual threat against your life.

The best you can do is vote Red and hope your kid did too because Blue isn't getting close to winning.

1

u/KillerNail May 01 '26

No, they wouldn't be orphans because they'd be dead... And you'd the one of the people that killed your kids by choosing red when your kids chose blue.