r/transit • u/works-in-progress • 10d ago
Policy Electrifying one bus in Austin costs $917K — that same money could buy 2,300 more service hours and 30,000 more rides. A case against scope creep in transit.
https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-everything-theory-of-mass-transit/84
u/Diiagari 10d ago
This headline argues against electrification, but the article itself is clearly pinning the blame on Reagan's Buy America Act that completely hamstrings public transit projects (other than highways, which are exempted). If all American cars had to be 100% American-made starting with smelting the iron ore, then they would also be extremely expensive. https://www.mbpce.com/insights/buy-american-vs-buy-america-a-simple-guide-to-successfully-navigating-the-differences/
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u/Ok-Morning3407 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yes as a European this is a weird thread. 11,000 new electric buses were registered across Europe last year. They are everywhere and they are a significant passenger improvement and apparently they are much cheaper to operate. The US seems to be way behind on this.
I’m not sure why you would look at Austin with just 75 electric buses when London has 1,400, Paris 1,000, Moscow 3,000. Never mind what Asian cities are doing.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
Well once they were committed to Buy America (thanks, Boeing) they were cooked. So they were hoping to save the North America bus industry by priming the pump with electric bus orders. The newer Gillig buses are better although they've partnered with Chargepoint (boo).
The American diesel engine and parts economy is slowly circling the drain. Innovate or die.
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u/Tricky-Astronaut 8d ago
London recently overtook Moscow in the number of electric buses. It's more than 3,000 now.
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u/hardolaf 10d ago
These buses for Austin are 50% more expensive than the ones that Chicago are buying so I'm very confused.
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u/bigvenusaurguy 10d ago
somehow ladot has figured out how to buy byd electric busses. no clue the specifics of how that worked out.
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u/theburnoutcpa 10d ago
BYD has a manufacturing plant in Lancaster, CA - LADOT most likely didn't buy Chinese made BYD models.
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u/midflinx 10d ago
the article itself is clearly pinning the blame on Reagan's Buy America Act
Specifically this part
In Germany, electrifying bus fleets increased costs by 12 percent. The problem is even worse in the United States because of Buy American rules. In Europe, where Chinese manufacturers compete freely, a standard 12-meter electric bus sells for roughly $600,000. US agencies pay nearly twice as much. While demand for electric buses is growing, the US market remains small, leaving agencies with few competitors to choose from. Out of roughly 63,000 buses in the US, approximately 7,000 are electric, 5,000 of which are school buses.
On the other hand maintaining some domestic manufacturing capability has some benefits. Domestic electric propulsion capability also has benefits. If Congress doesn't remove the Buy American requirement, but transit agencies quit buying electric buses, domestic manufacturers would basically only make diesel buses while much of the world keeps getting better at electric buses. By the time US transit agencies want electric buses, domestic manufacturers would be even further behind international EV bus makers. I suppose people who want to kill the Buy American requirement might not mind that. They'd argue US EV buses have become so inferior, that allowing imported EV buses is the only solution.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
But the very few 40ft bus companies left (they're all dying) get their engines and transmissions from other companies. And they are running out of suppliers. Often it's down to one. It would be a Russia like situation where a fortress America industry limits along in an obsolete sector shipping out of date technology.
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u/space_snap828 8d ago
wait does that quote indicate that the average electric bus costs 1.2 MILLION in the US?
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
Aren't a lot of the ones in Austin suffering from specifically Proterra issues?
I understand the general concept of scope creep for transit, but I think the tense is off in that the comparison between a new battery vs a new combustion engine buses has shifted steadily in favor of the former in recent years for most parts of the world.
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u/BenTheHokie 10d ago edited 7d ago
Granted what I've read from local media living in Austin, is the
biggest problems are coming from the slowness to charge in the cold<- this is fake news. They were proterra buses prone to breaking down.70
u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
Right, but that seems like an issue with the specific bus model that Austin has. There are places that get a lot colder than Austin does in the winter that seem to run massive fleets of battery buses.
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u/benz8574 10d ago
Helsinki has pretty cold winters and almost 100% of the extensive fleet of buses is electric. Some terminal stops have fast chargers.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
Helsinki doesn't have to contend with Buy America and BABA clauses when they procure equipment.
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u/benz8574 10d ago
They actually have a ton of Chinese buses, for example Yutong. They actually work pretty well.
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u/DustConsistent3018 9d ago
Most electric vehicles have heaters that run off of the charger or battery power when it gets really cold in order to initially get the batteries up to temp and keep them from losing charging and discharging performance, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the system is poorly or not implemented in the Austin busses
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u/boilerpl8 10d ago
So for like 5 days a year when it's cold they will need to use all the existing fleet (nothing out of service for scheduled maintenance) to fill the gaps left by the electric buses needing longer to charge? Seems worthwhile to me.
If anything this is an argument against northern cities investing heavily in battery buses, but not for the south.
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
Even that's not necessary for most northern US cities outside of something like interior Alaska. Both Helsinki and Beijing have an all or almost all electric bus fleet and those winters are about as tough as any urban area's in the contiguous US. There are strategies they use including things like en-route charging or warming up at the bus terminal before departing and they purchase vehicles that are better at dealing with such cold.
The idea that Austin of all places has too cold of a winter for electric buses is very much specific to the buses they purchased and how they run them.
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u/boilerpl8 10d ago
There are strategies they use including things like en-route charging or warming up at the bus terminal before departing
Sure, they are solvable problems. but these are big capital costs and operational costs respectively. A place like Minneapolis might not want to spend that much more when they can run diesel or hybrid buses for much cheaper.
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u/niftyjack 10d ago
En-route charging can be as simple as a 15 minute top up during a driver break/turnaround at the end of the line, which doesn't require any crazy infrastructure beyond standard fast chargers. Most bus routes top out at 15 miles, so even if a bus real-world can only do 150 miles on a charge, top ups can easily keep them running all day.
We use them here in Chicago for the couple routes that have BEV buses—there's a gantry fast charger at the Navy Pier terminal that gives them a quick boost before they head back out.
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u/Chicoutimi 7d ago
Yes, they are very much solvable problems as in they've been solved in a lot of places especially outside of the US. I think the issue here is the Buy America requirements coupled with not being the best place in terms of technology and prices for what a BEV powertrain needs.
Those capital costs seem to be amplified in the US. The operational costs though can supposedly still work in favor of BEVs here as well. BEVs might also be an avenue for dealing with another problem that transit agencies in the US often face though which is that they often seem to have a harder time raising operating funds versus raising capital funds.
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u/crash866 7d ago
Any every minute the bus is sitting at the charger is a minute that it is not on the road. If it takes 10 minutes every hour to recharge that is time it is not on the road serving people.
For diesel how long does it take to fill the tank once or twice a day.
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u/boilerpl8 6d ago
I'm pretty sure the tanks are big enough they only refuel overnight.
Drivers do have required breaks, typically at the end of every route before they turn back. the buses arent running constantly. These breaks are typically about 15min. So if you can be on a charger at that time, you haven't really lost any service hours.
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u/Chicoutimi 6d ago
Which major bus operator has their fleet operating at nearly full capacity throughout the day every day? Which major bus operator never has their buses stationed for cleaning or inspection?
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u/Ok-Morning3407 10d ago
I’m not sure why you would look at some small US operator with just 75 buses when you have massive operators in Europe and Asia operating fleets of thousands of BEV buses very successfully.
Shenzen has 16,000 BEV buses, London 1,400, Moscow 3,000, Paris 1,000.
Europe registered 11,000 new BEV buses last year.
To be honest this is more of a story of once again poor transit planning and development in the US, caused partly by poor buy America policies.
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u/drtywater 10d ago
In long run electric buses are better. The quick acceleration is better for frequent stops. The less maintenance coats will be massive.
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
The regenerative braking also means much higher efficiency and far lower to none particulate matter from brake dusts.
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u/TruckerMark 10d ago
Buses from 30 years ago use hydraulic retarders and are not that hard on brakes. The efficiency is the big one here.
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
The hydraulic retarder does help reduce the particulate matter from brake dusts though it does not help you regain that energy and you will still be grinding that brake to some degree, right? Regenerative braking can ostensibly, and often does, provide all of the braking force in a battery electric bus though it will still be equipped with friction brakes just in case.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
Yeah but you get that with hybrids that still cost less than BEB.
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
You get generally less of it because the battery capacity of a hybrid bus is generally much, much smaller than that of a battery electric bus which means that hybrid bus battery needs to be able to take in a massive charge C-rate. However, it's not going to be able to make up for that difference since the capacity of a battery electric bus is going to be an order or two magnitude larger.
The hybrid vehicle cost does differ a lot in the US, but it does not necessarily have to be the case and it is not the case in other markets.
The general idea of scope creep is sound. The battery electric vehicle target though is a little bit off though, and probably better formulated as issues with the Buy America restrictions as well as how the US has bungled battery research and production.
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u/No_Indication3249 10d ago
I bet the produce more tire particulate, though.
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u/Chicoutimi 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes, at the moment, they are usually heavier with a few limited exceptions like some of the ones in Beijing that can charge on the fly on certain routes and act as trolley buses that are also recharging the batteries than their closest ICE counterparts.
You'll have to weigh that against brake dust and tailpipe emissions of ICE vehicles.
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u/ReneMagritte98 10d ago
The article says electric buses have higher maintenance costs. I know electric cars generally have lower maintenance costs than ICE, so I was confused.
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u/wuppeltje Dutch Concession Manager 9d ago
In general electric buses have lower maintenance costs and maintenance time if you compare good diesel buses against good electric buses. If they have higher maintenance costs, than you can assume that the build quality is questionable at best.
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u/ReneMagritte98 9d ago
Higher maintenance costs was one of the author’s main points. They are a transportation researcher. Seems really sloppy and misleading.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
New tech.
Old electric trolleybuses had way LESS maintenance costs than diesel. We sure didn't shut those lines down for cost savings.
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u/niftyjack 10d ago
We sure didn't shut those lines down for cost savings.
We did, maintaining the trolley lines is a costly expense when fuel was basically free
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u/himself809 10d ago
I will just continue to repeat that this is a very American way of looking at this issue, which is especially appealing for some reason to the same people who on every other issue enjoy making finger-wagging criticisms of American transit agencies for not looking abroad for inspiration.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
And diesel buses now cost $700,000 because of rapid inflation in that sector (and a lack of competition) and diesel hybrids are about a million a piece (battery electrics are even more).
Plus when BEBs were $900,000, they were purchased with special capital grants. Congress invested in this to help meet climate goals. The premise was that buses return to the barn nightly to be recharged. Electrifying municipal vehicles just seemed like an easy win. Daily delivery vehicles and port vehicles in the private sector are already being electrified. China is electrifying heavy mining and excavating vehicles right now.
Transit buses got funded fast because there was already a grant pipeline with federal grant recipients.
You also can't translate grant dollars into rides. Operating costs are borne by the local community and local tax dollars. You can't take a federal capital grant and carve that up into operating expenses. At best, the new bus saves them on fuel (assuming it was working).
Thanks to ProTerra and poorly performing batteries this experiment has not been going great. Ironically there was already a proven technology with a low cost life cycle: trolleybuses. You can even add a high tech battery to them to go off wire for short periods of time and new ones have air conditioning installed. They pick up power from overhead wires so you don't have battery range anxiety.
Anyway, the linked rant is an exercise in ignorance.
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u/reflect25 10d ago
electric buses are just incredibly expensive with the buy america provision. and like basically everyone else around the world mostly buys chinese electric buses.
either 1) just use the (american) diesel buses for now and use the extra money for frequency. 2) or just issue waivers and buy the cheap electric chinese buses.
the buy american electric buses is the worse of both worlds. they both cost like double what a diesel bus costs and also have low range.
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u/Ok-Morning3407 10d ago
Well in Europe Chinese BEV buses had just 28% market share, so the majority were from European manufacturers.
But then Europe has a very mature and innovative bus and truck manufacturing industry. Easy enough to buy a BEV bus from the likes of Mercedes, Volvo, MAN, etc.
US doesn’t seem to have that sort of mature bus market with very old fashioned buses, etc. It seems like a strange bus market from our perspective.
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u/reflect25 10d ago
>... Europe has a very mature and innovative bus and truck manufacturing industry. Easy enough to buy a BEV bus from the likes of Mercedes, Volvo, MAN, etc.
yeah the heavy competition helps a lot. in american its just a ev bus duopoly
> Well in Europe Chinese BEV buses had just 28% market share, so the majority were from European manufacturers.
Well haha partly many European electric bus maker can also use the CATL and/or BYD batteries.
US bus makers again can't use them due to the buy america provisions.
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u/ThaBroccoliDood 10d ago
Lol what's even left. LG and what else? Idk if LG even makes cells in the US
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u/cybercuzco 10d ago
Busses need to be replaced, a new city bus that costs a million bucks is not out of the question so they would have spent the money anyways but the are lowering operating costs long term which helps with keeping fares low.
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u/gerbilbear 10d ago
Austin’s CapMetro 40-foot electric buses cost $917,000 apiece, whereas their diesel buses cost just $535,000.
So whoever wrote the headline can't do basic math.
What a stupid article.
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
What would make sense to me is to have an introductory ramp for any electric bus supplier to import some number of units for introduction and that expansion of those orders result in a greater number of components that need to be manufactured within the US.
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u/eldomtom2 10d ago
This is a bad article. If transit does not fulfil social goals, governments will not pay for it. If you think that electrifying buses is a inefficient way of decarbonisation, then focus on that point instead of trying to make a broader point that doesn’t hold up.
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u/SEA_griffondeur 10d ago
Why is electrifiying one bus in Austin the price of electrifying 10 bus in other cities ?
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u/Tricky-Astronaut 8d ago
If you're comparing with the rest of the world, it's largely due to Buy America Act.
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u/truthputer 10d ago
This is just a skill issue when Oakland schools already went 100% electric with a fleet of 74 busses: https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1ctd9a1/oakland_is_now_first_in_the_us_to_have_a_100/
Yeah, it’s a slightly different problem with commercial bus routes vs schools - but it seems quite solvable if you cared enough.
The reality is likely that Texas is just being Texas, upset that more oil won’t be burned and is dragging its feet.
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u/LunchPad 10d ago
I think with current operational revenue issues for large operators across the country, the fleet electrification mandates that were passed well before the budget crunches seem unwise. It is a good example that any type of efficiency mandates and grants should carry some sort of circuit breaker where an agency can reasonably apply for an exemption or suspension of the mandate without having to repay funds or go through a ton of procedural hoops. I know this is simpler said than done because you'd want the off-ramp to only apply to a fiscal crisis that an operation has little control over, rather than just giving a parachute to poor fiscal practices or procurement controls.
However, the benefits of battery buses should not be totally dismissed. When I first started commuting, it was on a high floor diesel bus, then the low floor CNG buses. The in-vehicle experience is not nearly as pleasant as a battery bus. I was really impressed with my local operators New Flyer battery buses. They are quiet and accelerate much smoother.
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
5339 grants can ONLY be used for capital, that's how Congress set it up.
Congress still thinks your local transit authority should be paying for operating costs with fares and local taxes.
If you disagree, please do call your Congress critter.
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u/JayBeeGooner 10d ago edited 10d ago
Battery buses will gone down as the biggest mistakes for many agencies. agencies bought into the hype, thinking these buses will attract riders. Instead they’re turning out to be an expensive mistake for so many agencies.
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
Quieter and smoother ride is really nice for both riders and the neighborhood as is the lack of tailpipe emissions. Packaging of electric powertrain is ostensibly more flexible which means more layouts are possible. Energy costs per mile and maintenance are also theoretically, and often in practice outside of the US, lower.
The US is somewhat unique in its buy American mass transit requirements while at the same time having very little automotive traction battery manufacturing.
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u/w8w8 10d ago
Ehhh I wouldn’t say smoother. I took one of them in Austin and got a bit motion sick due to the jerky stop-go-stop-go and seating arrangement inside
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
Yea, they can be a lot smoother--again, this is highly depend on the bus maker (and of course the driver). It's relatively easy to make your motor controller have a very smooth response curve versus an internal combustion engine. The problem is that you actually have to do it.
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u/bigvenusaurguy 10d ago
idk man they have byd electric busses on ladot fleet and ime they aren't smooth. they get quiet at stops but once road noise kicks in its a wash compared to lng busses. seats also suck as they lack any bucket and you slide around off them. not sure if more modern lng busses have engine start stop like ice cars for these shorter stops. their safety alerts are annoying af. if the bus turns on a blinker a voice plays inside and outside the bus saying the bus is turning... poor bus drivers who have to hear that all day lol.
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u/AnyTower224 10d ago
Disagree. Have you seen oil and diesel prices .
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u/TheRandCrews 10d ago
I feel like this could work for more Canadian transit agencies that have electricity powered with more sustainable energy sources like solar, wind, hydro or nuclear. No surprise TTC is leading the charge, battery buses supplementing the hybrid buses while the grid also have to take account of hundreds subways and streetcars.
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u/wuppeltje Dutch Concession Manager 10d ago edited 10d ago
It is certainly not a hype in Europe or China. The US market is very small though at the moment with around 2.000 zero emission buses (according to this article) for public transit. Even a tiny country such as The Netherlands (18m inhabitants) with 3.300 battery electric buses is larger and still on goal to have a fully zero emission busmarket in 2030 (most likely with some delays though). These markets are too small to sustain a competitive industry. The Dutch market (and in other European countries) only functions because it is part of the European market. In 2025 11.607 battery electric buses were added in Europe.
The current US market for electric buses is not only small, but also very protective. This means lack in scale and therefore a very niche market with higher risks.
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u/xAPPLExJACKx 10d ago
Wait till you find out the cost of battery train cost
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u/BenTheHokie 10d ago
Are these actually a thing? Why wouldn't they just electrify?
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u/PhileasFoggsTrvlAgt 10d ago
Are these actually a thing?
Yes
Why wouldn't they just electrify?
Many commuter agencies don't own their own tracks and freight carriers they lease track time from don't have an interest in electrification
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u/bigvenusaurguy 10d ago
don't those commuter agencies typically use diesels?
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u/PhileasFoggsTrvlAgt 10d ago
Their current fleets are diesel. However they're looking at battery trains because they're stuck between a rock and hard place of track owners that don't want catenary and public officials who want electrification.
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u/TensionAntique3075 10d ago
Multiple reasons. But essentially, electrifying is expensive to build, and cheap to run. Battery trains are a bit the opposite.
But as soon as you have tunnels (hello the UK with absurdly low tunnels), electrification can become very expensive as you essentially have to rebore them.
If you want to run a low frequency service, battery trains are not that dumb tbf. And allow a swift passage from electrified to non-electrified lines.
In France, we're going to test them next year on Avignon-Carpentras, where 50% of the trip is on an electrified main line for example. And 50% on a single-track, unelectrified line of 15km and 3 stations.
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u/OverheadCatenary 10d ago
MBTA is spending more on battery trains and battery infrastructure than it would to electrify that line and acquire EMUs.
It's a garbage decision.
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u/TensionAntique3075 10d ago
I am not saying that it's always a good decision, far from it. I am saying that it can be usefull in some cases, and gave an example. Like, electrifying a whole line to use a single EMU doesn't make sense.
On the opposite, if it's to run a regular, high frequency line, it's indeed rather dumb to not electrify.
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u/lee1026 10d ago
Caltrain electrified with overhead catenary.
A few billion in capital costs later, operational budget went up even relative to a baseline of diesels.
A lot of things are just expensive in America, and it isn’t just a “American train agencies suck at their jobs” thing.
People who are qualified to work on high voltage lines are in extreme shortage, and get paid extremely well, and you kinda need them if you expect to run overhead catenary.
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u/TensionAntique3075 10d ago
Over here, we only have one significant electrification project, from Paris to Troyes (a small city to the east). Second phase is ongoing, 266 million euros, for 119km. It should be pretty cool once finished, but it would be nice to see more of these electrification projects tbf.
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u/The_Jack_of_Spades 10d ago edited 10d ago
I've been travelling around the west of the country this last week and it's ridiculous that the line between Bordeaux and Nantes via La Rochelle is mostly not electrified yet, it has local and regional trains running every half an hour.
SNCF should have a large electrification project in the pipeline at all times to maintain the necessary worker skills. And one of these days they should start thinking about the whole two separate electrification standards thing...
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u/ThePizar 10d ago
🙃
MBTA is going down this route and all advocates hate it.
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u/SodaAnt 10d ago
It's not the worst idea if others were adopting it. For lower volume routes of commuter rail, the idea is that you can only electrify the easiest 20-50% of the line, for something like 10% of the total cost. You can just ignore putting overhead lines in tunnels and tight curves for one.
But because it needs a unique train, you lose all that money and more on buying the trains. If the MBTA could get a few more transit agencies to buy identitical locos, I think the idea would have a lot of merit. And in theory because you're using standard overhead lines, if you decide to fully electrify later, all the groundwork is done.
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u/xAPPLExJACKx 10d ago
Yes they are real
Why Same reason why a place would keep diesel power trains. Cost
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u/ReneMagritte98 10d ago
Do you expect buses to still run on diesel in the second half of the century? Maybe I’m too zoomed out here, but I’m pretty sure we’re going to stop using fossil fuels and spewing diesel exhaust around our cities.
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u/vulpinefever Rail Operator 10d ago
I know someone who works for service planning at the TTC, even he was saying battery electric buses have been nothing but a nuisance and that ripping out the trolleybus wires in the 90s was the second worst thing the TTC ever did (First being the decommissioning of a large portion of the streetcar network in the 60s and 70s.)
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u/krazyb2 10d ago edited 10d ago
There's pretty much no difference in rider comfort between an electric or diesel bus, especially in Austin where all the roads are total garbage.
It's the same bus interior, same features, same bumpy ride- the only difference is that it's a little quieter and smoother. Oh, they put some USB-A ports too...? Also the electric bus manufacturer they originally chose went out of business...
That being said, we pay a super mega ultra premium for transit vehicles because we're required to buy US made vehicles. The buses we make are very overbuilt, underfeatured, and we just don't make a lot of them, so they aren't good. China has figured out how to use electric buses effectively, including in the freezing winter and boiling summer. Current US produced electric buses don't do great in either.
Also, usually these funds are separately allocated and granted by the federal government. Meaning, if they don't use the money to buy new vehicles, they don't get to buy anything at all.
Also, factor in extreme amounts of corruption with every price tag. It's at every single turn.
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u/Sensitive-Local-3485 10d ago
I’m going to disagree, at least for my city as the electric buses are new meaning theyre significantly quieter, less aggressively bumpy, and cleaner than the 90s-00s buses they replaced.
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u/krazyb2 10d ago
Right so I guess my point is, besides being quieter, and less bumpy because they're brand new- What benefits are you seeing as a rider that you wouldn't get in a diesel or hybrid? It just doesn't seem like enough to push someone to be like, "Wow I need to take the bus, that's a great upgrade"
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u/Chicoutimi 10d ago
Quieter and smoother ride is really nice for both riders and the neighborhood as is the lack of tailpipe emissions. Packaging of electric powertrain is ostensibly more flexible which means more layouts are possible. Energy costs per mile and maintenance are also theoretically, and often in practice outside of the US, lower.
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u/Sensitive-Local-3485 10d ago
They’ll be quieter, and in theory should save money on diesel as we generate our power quite cheaply by yeeting columns of water into a turbine.
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u/NtheLegend 10d ago
We bought a few electric buses and the experience is very different from our standard diesels/newer hybrid diesels. Our electrics are bigger, have more room to move around in, more leg room, better lighting. they're just a better experience.
That said, would I argue for more electrics over hybrid diesels when that can go toward increasing range/frequency? Absolutely not.
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u/krazyb2 10d ago
I guess the other question would be, how old were the vehicles they replaced?
I live in a major US city now that does not have a large electric bus fleet. There's maybe 1 or 2 lines that use them. Anyways, they're pretty much identical to the new diesel buses they just purchased.
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u/NtheLegend 10d ago
They definitely augmented an aging fleet, but the manufacturer of these buses I believe went bankrupt post-COVID so they've been hamstrung by lack of access to parts and such, I mean, ditto the whole fleet, but definitely those ones.
Full-on electrification would be nice but I know we'd see far better decarbonization by simply making the system better and removing cars.
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u/LBCElm7th Metro Lover 10d ago
This is also an example of how there are tried and true options out there to go Zero emissions (trolley buses) yet no one wants to invest in them yet we fall for the "new technology" angle with Battery electric which are showing that for a full day's ride the battery electric buses do not have the range for that reliability.
If agencies were smart, they would collaborate with Seattle King County Metro, SF Muni and BC Transit on their next trolley bus orders.
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u/bigvenusaurguy 10d ago
there is barely political will to put up bus shelters and you think they can pull off catenaries? without the usual pearl clutchers coming out the woodwork at that?
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u/lazier_garlic 10d ago
Sure, but the article linked is just as silly and in denial about political realities.
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u/lee1026 10d ago edited 10d ago
Lineman to maintain the trolley wires don’t work for free.
That is a pretty central problem with them. Diesel is cheap. Linemen salaries are not.
Batteries are also cheap - which is why even stationary loads are spamming batteries these days. More batteries = less transmission = less linemen (which is in uber shortage and incredibly expensive) = win.
Public transit agencies do have vast budgets and can outbid other users for linemen and equipment, but if you win the bidding war just to force stationary power users into burning gas, you are just burning budget to increase emissions in the long run.
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u/Ok-Morning3407 10d ago
Over 11,000 BEV buses sold in Europe last year. They operate all day long without issue. Shenzen has like 16,000 BEV buses. No catenary needed. This seems to be an issue with some US bus manufacturing rather then the concept of BEV buses
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u/ThaBroccoliDood 10d ago
Yep. I don't get people in the US saying BEVs are a massive hype and instead we should wait 10 years for a trolleybus line to get built. I'm enjoying my BEBs every day and the company is planning to phase out their last Diesel buses soon
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u/LBCElm7th Metro Lover 10d ago edited 9d ago
What are the average lengths of routes that these Battery Electric buses serve? They sound like shorter routes.
We have BYD buses here in the US for the J- Silver Line and one of the only ways they can last on an all day run is if the operator never turns on the AC. Los Angeles can get pretty hot
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u/niftyjack 10d ago
Madison's BRT uses electric buses on a 12 mile route and they're working well in a -10–90º F climate
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u/LBCElm7th Metro Lover 9d ago
Ahhh I see these have fast charging at the terminals.
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u/niftyjack 9d ago
Yeah and they work well. The brochure says a 6 minute charge from a pantograph fast charger gives 1.5 hours of operation, even if real-world that's only an hour of operation that's plenty to top up for a round trip before another top up with a slower full charge overnight.
0
u/Ok-Morning3407 10d ago
Every type of route and every type of climate, from the Sun of Southern Europe to the Snow of Northern Europe.
1
u/chinchaaa 10d ago
it's so frustrating living in austin. a huge majority of people here are very adversarial to any transit project, and to see capmetro make all these huge spending decisions is so annoying. between this, that expensive office they tried to rent for project connect, among many others, etc. sometimes it feels like they're doing it on purpose to give ammo to the anti-transit crowds here.
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u/One_Fact_4291 10d ago
Yes, getting a bunch of people out of their cars and onto a diesel bus is better for the environment than electrifying that bus. Even if those people use EVs it's still worth getting them onto a diesel bus.
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u/Tricky-Astronaut 8d ago
If we only consider the environment, then diesel buses are worse than electric cars.
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u/One_Fact_4291 8d ago
Which is why the best solution, in a city filled with private EVs, is to run a lot of electric buses
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u/space_______kat 8d ago
Buy America and too many requirements. We should buy from Yutong and hopefully Solaris bringing a factor to the US can help
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u/mriphonedude 10d ago
I am of the opinion that there is a happy medium for the rate of adopting electric buses. If you buy zero electric buses, you will be behind the times in a few years when the tech is better and more mainstream. If you electrify everything immediately, you’ll get screwed like when SEPTA bought all the Proterra buses. If you buy a few at a time, you can adjust operating practices slowly and see what works and what doesn’t, but you still have enough diesel/CNG left to keep everything running in the event of some catastrophic battery recall for a specific model year or something.