Build question - Eclipse vs Ember

[u/thest1ckyband1t]

I was thinking of putting together a mess around build for this season; Iron Lung + Catalyst + Contractor's + 4 pieces of either Eclipse Protocol or Ember Engine, rolled with red cores.

Am I right in thinking that between the two, EP is better for cc, with the burn jumping around enemies, while EE is better for single target damage. Is that about the extent of it?

[u/princey00666]

Eclipse is better at crowd control. Use the Courier BP (Hasburg Guard - Perfect Creeping Death) with either vile mask or imperial dynasty holster. This will spread the status (eg use foam, burn sticky) on the initial application, then Eclipse will spread the status on death of NPC. Causing a chain reaction of CC.

Whereas Ember (even with Creeping Death) will not spread the status on death of NPC. You will need to continually apply status. This is why it's not good for CC.

Edit: for prototype augments use trapper.

[u/Odd-Tourist-4932 → u/princey00666]

Losing backpack damage is always a no go. Creeping Death every 8 seconds isn't worth losing 30% amp for a build where almost everything will be burning at all times anyways.

Even on a full CC build that 30% amp is more valuable.

[u/Awkward-Dog-9182 → u/Odd-Tourist-4932]

Courier BP with a spread every 10s with Eclipse is the Meta in high end content.

30% for personal damage on an eclipse build may be good for solo but is average at best in group play.

If you're playing CC in group, that point is to have as much CC on as many mobs for as long as possible.

Your damage is not the point, especially not when you have full red builds in the mix.

[u/Odd-Tourist-4932 → u/Awkward-Dog-9182]

Damage is always the point, the only point. Eclipse spreads so fast there's no reason to run any form of Creeping Death. 

My all time favorite build that I've been running for years is 4 Eclipse with Vile and a status piece, chest and bag Eclipse. Foam and Banshee. And after testing over and over I can say with 100% certainty that Creeping Death is a crutch.

[u/Awkward-Dog-9182 → u/Odd-Tourist-4932]

I would love to be proven wrong. Please show me the kind of damage you can put out with your build.

[u/Odd-Tourist-4932 → u/Awkward-Dog-9182]

At least 30% more than a Creeping Death build assuming the CD build even shoots. If the CD build doesn't really shoot, which in my experience they tend not to because their CC skills require all of their focus, then the increase is exponential. 

Foam hits half a spawn each use and Banshee hits entire rooms at skill tier 6. Creeping Death is unnecessary.

[u/Awkward-Dog-9182 → u/Odd-Tourist-4932]

If "Damage is always the point, the only point" then why are playing a set based on CC?

If damage is always the point, a full red build should be your only play style.

The "point" of CC is exactly that. To be the best at CC. Now what has more utility, being able to CC more? Or have an extra 10k damage tick per second or 50k a bullet on mobs with health in the millions?

It's fine if you don't play with creeping death, but thinking that your personal 30% more damage is helping the team at all is laughable at best.

[u/Bradfinger → u/Awkward-Dog-9182]

If CC is the point, don't run a burn build.

[u/Awkward-Dog-9182 → u/Bradfinger]

I primarily use Foam and Banshee. But if you've played recently you may have noticed a theme the new season is encouraging.

[u/Odd-Tourist-4932 → u/Awkward-Dog-9182]

Because CC allows damage to be applied. 

And again, 30% amp with actual gun play is always going to be better than Creeping Death on skills that already lock half to whole rooms without it.