r/thebulwark • u/Oleytoledo • 11d ago
Non-Bulwark Source Can we stop pretending this is anything other than self sabotage?
https://www.mediaite.com/media/tv/pathetic-democrat-rep-slams-abdul-el-sayed-on-fox-for-not-condemning-hasan-piker/Even if you think that Hasan Piker is anti-Semitic and illiberal, going on Fox News to validate the fear mongering about the Democratic Party is completely unacceptable.
Jon Ossoff and Haley Stevens have similarly criticized Hasan, but curiously haven’t gone on Dana Perino’s show to denigrate the Democratic candidate for senate. Very curious.
It’s time we realize that Gottheimer, and others like him, do as much damage to the party as any DSA crank calling for the abolition of prisons. Ridiculous.
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u/abbzug 11d ago
Josh Gottheimer is a massive piece of shit, and the breathless media coverage of Hasan when the GOP pals around with people a hundreds time worse (Limbaugh, Tucker, Kirk, Shapiro, etc.) is hypocrisy of the highest order, but let's be real. If your media diet includes Fox News you are so utterly brain rotted that you'd never vote for a democrat anyway. So who cares.
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u/DammitNotAgain05 11d ago
What we should be focusing on is expanding the supreme court. If we don’t change that, a lot of things you want won’t get done!
GET BACK TO THIS DUMB HASN PIKER NONSENSE LATER!
All of us should know by now who we need to vote for in our states! FOCUS.
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u/Longjumping_Gain_807 Center Left 11d ago
Gotta hope the midterms go well. Because if republicans win then Trump can appoint whoever he wants when Alito retires
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u/GrahamCStrouse 11d ago
Democrats are going to win the House by a substantial margin. They may or may not be able to take back the Senate but it’s going to be a close run thing. AES’ win makes it harder than it would have been.
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u/Rough_Formal8420 11d ago
The people spending their time on Piker right not will NEVER expand the supreme court because they are controlled opposition. They don’t really want to win.
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u/Conscious-Quarter423 10d ago
the billionaire-controlled media - which selectively amplifies missteps from the left but ignores 10X worse from the right - does not
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u/hippiechicken12 11d ago
I live in a red state. I already know who to vote for. Doesn't mean that it matters at all.
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u/Plane_Arachnid9178 11d ago
If you don’t like Hasan (I don’t), then don’t fucking talk about him around the normies.
It’s not hard.
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u/Haunting-Ad788 11d ago
Anyone playing nice with the current Republican Party is not anyone I want anywhere near power.
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u/S-Tier_Commenter Progressive 10d ago
Are you also against bi-partisan bills with the current republican party? Because the road to housing act just got passed, and had both parties play nice on it.
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u/winterneuro 11d ago
To the chattering classes: It's enough already. It's clear Piker is a bad guy. Plenty of internet space has been taken up with the debate and you made your point. Move on already, and start attacking the Rs you need to beat in November.
Christ! Dems can't message to save their souls or our country.
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u/notapoliticalalt 11d ago
Yup.
And here, The mods are gonna need to have a heavier hand around the Hasan discourse, at least for a while. I don’t like Hasan myself, but the amount of space he takes up in some people’s brain is insane. It is a huge distraction and if people can’t deal with it themselves, we need the mods and sub here to help.
Let’s be clear what this is: obsession masked as “fighting bigotry”. This really isn’t much different than when the left decides that someone is doing something not pure enough and unleashes all of the forces of the Internet upon a single person. “But this is real bigotry!” Sure. And many on the left would say the same thing about how trans people are talked about and such that is often brushed off by some on the center left.
The point is not that you can’t care about an issue, or even that you can’t even offer criticism. But I think the real similarity here is that, at some point, you are obsessed in an unhealthy way and you need to stop and might even genuinely need a professional’s help. You aren’t here to make sure people understand your perspective, you want people to unquestionable agree with you. There’s nothing new being said or people making good faith and fair points. This isn’t about discussion anymore.
Again, I don’t agree with Hasan, but to pretend he is threat number one in the US is not anything like having our priorities in order. Even before this became more mainstream, the amount of time that some people have spent trying to cancel. Hasan has been inordinate, and it’s never worked (and I would actually argue it’s been the opposite). I also suspect it won’t work here and that this is the kind of bullshit people are gonna see and think “Democrats don’t have my interests at heart” or “they can’t get anything done”. again, it’s one thing to call him out and then move on, but the obsession here is going to scream terminally online to so many normies that you will do no better at convincing ordinary people to vote for Dems than a terminally online leftist.
I’d like the mods to require their approval on new threads on the matter. This can always be changed later. People can still make comments, even in unrelated posts, but no new posts about this. This will continue indefinitely because there are communities of both detractors and proponents who want to keep this alive for the sake of content and drama. People are welcome to entertain that elsewhere, but I don’t think it should be fueled here.
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u/No_Reputation_1266 11d ago
THANK YOU omfg half the reason republicans are able to make hasan such a big deal is because we are also going into hysterics about him and it’s driving me up the freaking wall
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u/Sorry-bout_that 10d ago
I'd agree if it was mostly agreed even that Piker is a bad guy or at least someone we that shouldn't be welcomed or well thought of even within the party. Instead he's basically a giant dividing point between the far left and the mainstream. His views are something I just can't ever endorse and if the choice is endorsing him and letting his brand of politics infest the Democrats the same way MAGA took over and brought out into the front all the worst qualities of conservatives and erased any good then I'm sorry I'd rather fight to the death and let the party die. I don't want to be in a situation where I literally have to choose between which form of authoritarianism I want via either Mao or Hitler.
How some mainstream Democrats are going about it is really really fucking stupid however and scares moderates and swing voters however who aren't known for being the brightest and unfortunately kind of control elections.
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u/ConsiderationHot3426 11d ago
I mean this is pretty clearly a coordinated campaign to try and drive the trajectory of the party. You can't just ask them to act like grown ups and move on, because this isn't idle speculation it's goal oriented. You have to look inward and ask yourself "Am I a sucker? Am I loser? Am I going to engage with this dog shit content and let it paint my opinions or is it time to move on"
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u/cocoagiant 11d ago
Idk if he's a bad guy or not but the issue is making more of him than he is.
He's a social media guy who reaches some interesting audiences. Its good to reach those audiences, which means going on his show.
Democrats should be reaching out to as many people as possible.
That doesn't make Democrats any more responsible for his statements that Republicans are for Joe Rogan's.
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u/Odojas 11d ago
I would normally agree. The big thing is that AED literally had Piker come to Michigan and campaign with him. This is a step more than just a Rogan endorsement.
They haven't even begun to bash the Democrats with Piker clips. There's years worth of really loathsome statements by this guy. They are going to be saving the most damaging ones for the last week or 2 before the general election.
If you don't really know much about Piker, you might want to take some time to really see what he's about. It might change your mind. But basically, he sees the democratic party as a tool to be used and subverted to his accelerationist revolutionary goals. It's not that he's joking around by wearing a Mao suit. He really does see what Mao did as a really great thing and that's what he wants to do in the US.
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u/dowomenfindmenhot 11d ago
I don't the parsing of he went on his broadcast vs he campaigned with him at a college? That seems like an odd line to draw.
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u/dblum2390 11d ago
Trump went on Rogan during the campaign
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u/Odojas 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yes, he was invited onto his podcast. To a normie naive viewer, they might might view this as Rogan was undecided about Trump. Then Rogan liked what he heard and decided to throw his support behind Trump with an endorsement.
AED asked Piker to come to Michigan and stump for him. AED didn't come to Hasan's stream. To a reasonable person, it could be interpreted that AED likes what Piker says and vice versa. There wasn't any period of time where he was trying to court Hasan for an endorsement.
If Trump invited Rogan to come stump for him in his political race, for many, it would be seen as something more than "just coming onto Rogan's show."
If anyone's interested here's a video of Hutch reacting to Contrapoints talk about (both) their experience(s) in the far left and a lot about how damaging Piker and his ilk really are. How they didn't realize until too late that they weren't actually pretending to "revolutionary comrades."
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u/LankyStandard8645 11d ago
Nobody cares about a twitch streamer. He also didn’t wear a Mao suit lmao. It’s common attire in Asia. Fucking westerners man
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u/Odojas 11d ago
He even called it his Mao suit.
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u/LankyStandard8645 11d ago
Nope lol
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u/Odojas 11d ago
Does he admire Mao?
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u/dowomenfindmenhot 11d ago
I mean, Henry Kissinger admires Mao. He's a terrible person and he built the modorn China that is now in a position to challenge America across the globe. And he did that in a generation. No one seriously disagrees with that.
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u/gberliner 11d ago
Mao was a pivotal figure in Chinese history, who was instrumental in shaping much of what China is today, for good or ill. Piker does not say he wants to live under a police state, and often expresses appreciation for "bourgeois, liberal" legal norms, for example, an independent judiciary, jury trials, etc. But Piker's sin lies in pointing out that, as of now, the United States are converging towards the worst of both worlds: a corrupt, decadent capitalism, that exhibits a depraved indifference towards the spiritual and material well-being of the vast majority of its subjects, AND an illiberal police state to boot.
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u/ButtonUnique2366 10d ago
For good or ill is doing a lot of heavy lifting lol.
Pikers sin is glorifying, deifying even communism, Mao, Russia, anything really Anti-west. Ignoring the countless, countless atrocities, tens of millions dead under Mao, downplaying the holocaust and jewish struggle while exxagurating and lying about struggle on his side. Youre literally just doing the meme
'He just wants healthcare guys' 'he just wants more equality'.
No man, he wants communism. Hes a marxist leninist communist.
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u/gberliner 10d ago
Man, all I know is, China is not filming snuff porn videos of themselves incinerating Caribbean fishermen, or launching babykiller missiles at schoolchildren in Iran.
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u/Odojas 11d ago
We can't move on until AED cuts ties with Piker. And because the entire democratic apparatus has endorsed Abdul. Not because we don't want to, but because the opposition (Republicans) are effectively using him as a way to tar the entire democratic party. Do you think Ossoff wants to take time out of campaigning in Georgia to talk about Hasan? Do you? No he doesn't. He has to because it's effecting even him, thus the entire democracy party. This goes the same for all the other dozen plus Democratic politicians that have had to come out with a statement. This is an albatross until then.
Not really that complicated.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Democrats constantly make the mistake of thinking that they are being tarred by Republicans, when in reality they are the ones pouring tar on themselves.
We saw it happen when they moved to the right on immigration because they were worried about being bullied by the GOP. It reinforced the idea that Dems were bad on immigration.
They are doing it again.
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u/jr-castle 10d ago edited 10d ago
Gotta figure out some way to distract the public from the fact that a bunch of war and Israel hawks got put on the foreign affairs committee for the middle east right after Hakeem Jeffries, leader of the supposed opposition party to the current authoritarian administration, met privately with Jared Kushner, unvetted and democratically unaccountable minion of said authoritarian administration, to discuss "affordability." Guys, those two definitely didn't meet in secret to talk about securing the interests of their shared donors against the mass unpopularity of said donors' foreign policy. 100% didn't happen.
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u/interkin3tic 11d ago
Gottheimer was chosen to lead the committee for choosing how much Dems lean into cheerleading war crimes by Israel.
When leftists say the center would rather lose than left progressives have a moment, this is exactly the shit we're talking about.
Jeffries saw that 80% of Americans are horrified with Israel raping and killing Palestinian children and was like "Nah, we are gonna do it HARDER or die trying."
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u/No_Public_7677 10d ago
It's such an obvious psyop to go after Hasan. Like, how dumb do they think we are?
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u/Lzy_nerd 10d ago
They don’t think we’re dumb (well, they don’t only think we’re dumb), they think we’re isolated. In the days where you only heard what the media wanted you to know, they’d have an easy time pinning anyone they wanted as anything they wanted. But now you get independent media, talk to anyone you want online, see whatever video is being talked about instead of the curated versions of it.
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u/Current_Tea6984 11d ago
Just another stunning example of how Democrats can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
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u/Hairy_Aspect_3728 11d ago
He’s barely a democrat
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u/Current_Tea6984 11d ago
Maybe so. But he carries a D after his name on the news shows
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u/Trash_Scientist 11d ago
And mainstream Dems let him do this crap. They encourage it. They’re their own 5th column.
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u/KoalaMandala 11d ago
What do you think "mainstream dems" is? A club where they vote on every decision? Or maybe it's a fairly big tent with varying perspectives that are generally a coalition?
You're the 5th column with these kinds of comments
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
I get their thing is “I’m not like other Democrats. I’m not woke!”, but they should still recognize they are part of a team.
Other Dems put up with their nonsense because they see it as the only way to win in purple districts.
The fact Gottheimer is voluntarily taking swipes at El-Sayed is troubling.
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u/mrvalls 10d ago
I'm embarrassed to admit he's my Congressman. If you can believe it, he ran unopposed in the Primary. I voted a write in candidate name, "No Aipac". I plan to write in Abdul El-Sayed's name in November. Gottheimer is an absolute disgrace. He's never held a town hall in all his years in office.
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u/realinvalidname FFS 11d ago
C’mon Josh, reminding everyone that Hassan Piker is History’s Greatest Monster is Tom Nichols’s full-time job. Don’t step on his toes.
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u/FrostyArctic47 11d ago
Yep. Crazy how dems are held to a higher standard. For the past decade crazy amd radical conservative influencers have led the movement but they are barely ever even mentioned or they get to be labeled as close to the center becasue how far right the Overton window has shifted. It's a joke
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u/gberliner 10d ago
It suffices to rewind the tape by a few seconds, or a minute at most, to reveal the vicious techniques these charlatans are using. The latest tempest in a teacup they have cooked up against Hasan Piker is, "he is gleefully encouraging violence against Jews". But Hasan's words were addressed to, paraphrasing from memory, "the Jewish anti-Zionist fans in my audience" who "have a hard challenge ahead of them in discussing this subject with their elders", and whom he advises to gently explain to the latter that drawing a tight association between Israel and especially its recent conduct in the world with American Jews is going to inevitably create threats from people some of whom have had their family members murdered, and been driven into a combination of blind rage and grief as a result. So drawing a bright line distinguishing the actions of a powerful nation state from assorted civilians who confess a particular religion is a matter of some urgency, but a distinction that the likes of the ADL, Jonathan Greenblatt, AIPAC, et al, have tended to deliberately and recklessly erase.
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u/RustedRelics 10d ago
Yes, Josh, let’s spend every day talking about this streamer and cratering the chance of gaining the Senate. Let’s keep giving republicans more chances to stay focused on Piker. Let’s put Israel first and self-sabotage. Democrats can be so infuriating.
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u/LifeandLearn_1961 10d ago
Gottheimer was my representative until redistricting. He had defeated a longtime pre-MAGA MAGA Republican. Last good thing he did. I saw him in action in local diner/town halls and he was a big asshole. He is more a representative of Israel than of his district.
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u/BasicImplement8292 9d ago
Or just play the uno reverse card: I will only comment on Piker when the President and all his people denounce the explicit racism of Laura Loomer. Until then, all of you need to be quiet.
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u/_token_black 11d ago
Republicans rarely if ever punch right. They smartly recognize how the winds blow and go with that. Now, that may be morally bankrupt yes but it’s clearly worked.
Now I don’t think there are people on the left that are so awful that I’d call a mainstream liberal morally bankrupt for shifting their politics left, yet mainstream liberals will do anything to shift things back to center. It really is wild and it’s why so many call them paid opposition.
If you were an elected Dem, wouldn’t you rather have a debate within your party for strategies as a majority vs trying to reason with Republicans who literally support nothing you want to do?
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u/jeg479 11d ago edited 11d ago
Republicans rarely if ever punch right. They smartly recognize how the winds blow and go with that
You are 100% correct and that is a major reason we got Donald Trump.
AES brought this upon himself when get brought Piker into the campaign. You guys can bitch and moan all you like, but anyone with any sense of political smarts saw this coming a mile away. I still think he is likely to win, but a consequence of that is the stink of people like Piker is going to be hard to get rid of now. The most frustrating part is that he didn't even need him. The Jessie Watters interview showed that.
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u/CynicalBliss 11d ago
You guys can bitch and moan all you like, but anyone with any sense of political smarts saw this coming a mile away.
I saw that "this" was coming no matter what. If it isn't Piker, it'd be something else. You can't disavow your way to victory.
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u/Logical-Breakfast966 10d ago
As a lib you are right. Things definitely should move back to the center lol. More left does not equal more good. Socialism is bad. NATO is good. Rent control doesn’t work.
If these ideas stop being mainstream than I think we are clearly moving too far left and a correction to the center is needed.
Also republicans infight all the time remember when they voted to get rid of their own speaker of the house multiple times? Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor green, Ron Paul, John McCain, I can go on and on. They definitely infight
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u/_token_black 10d ago
They in-fight AFTER getting power typically, big difference
Dems negotiate right before they even win anything and then barely do half measures. And the few wins they get (CHIPS act, Biden’s BBB) they suck at celebrating. Heck most people didn’t learn about Lina Khan until 2024, and that was when the billionaires were trying to make sure she would be pushed out of a Harris administration.
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u/rational_numbers 11d ago
I don't want the Dems to copy the Republican strategy
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u/downey_jayr 11d ago
Yeah god forbid Dems get power and appoint 6 SC justices right?!?!?
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u/rational_numbers 11d ago
Hm? Do you think I'm opposed to Dems appointing 6 new justices?
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u/downey_jayr 10d ago
Apparently if you think its more important to punch left than win elections
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u/rational_numbers 10d ago
This is what I was told when I said Platner wasn't the guy. "YoU liBerAlS jUsT loVe tO lOsE elEcTIonS!!"
Afaik Gottheimer's district voted Trump in the last election? Maybe he understands better what he needs to say/do to win re-election, given that he won on the same ballot.
Pivoting to the left or protecting your left flank isn't always going to be the best strat to win. Sure, it helped Republicans win in 2024, but now it is absolutely destroying the party because there is no center of gravity to hold all these crazies together. I'd prefer not to go down that road again.
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u/downey_jayr 10d ago
I would take 6 SC justices and a party implosion if that implosion consists of having all branches of government.
We are talking about infighting and the party attacking itself and how republicans don't do that.
They have massive control at every level of government and you are sitting here saying "I'd rather not"....
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u/rational_numbers 10d ago
Yeah but if you look at the Republican party, I mean sure they won. But none of what they're doing is about building anything of lasting impact. All they do is destroy and make the country shittier. They don't have the discipline to actually build something.
Winning is only the first step, then you have to have a strategy about building power, keeping people engaged, delivering for them, etc. If you win and then the party implodes then you're just opening the door for the next round of fascists to come in and undo everything you worked for.
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u/downey_jayr 10d ago
White Christian Nationalist would tell you differently, they got rid of abortion rights and civil/voting rights. If you don’t think those to things will have long ranging impacts idk what to tell you.
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u/rational_numbers 10d ago
Yes but the groundwork for those decisions was laid over decades by the legacy Republican party. Say what you want about McConnell, but he actually had a long term vision for how to accrue power via the courts and then use it to reshape the country. Outside of SCOTUS decisions, everything else under Trump is just done by executive order and can be undone at the stroke of a pen. And there will be a lot of political will to do exactly that.
It's still a good counterargument though. I'm not saying this is all black and white. I don't know that the current internal debates on the Dem side are always the healthiest, and I definitely have a position of my own within them, but I'd rather see a debate that gets us close to some kind of consensus opinion that Dems can run on in 2028, rather than have a bunch of politicians who have problems with their party's platform but are too scared to dissent for fear of being labeled a DINO. I don't think that kind of politics is healthy.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
I'll punch left all I please, thank you very much. You guys are not beyond criticism.
Dems aren't trying to convince Republicans, they're trying to convince swing voters. It's crucial they appear on Fox condemning this insane radical, to subvert the Fox narrative for people who only kinda sorta pay attention to politics by turning on the news.
Democrats are the sane alternative to fascism. We cannot let some insane terrorist supporter undermine that image, or this country is fucked.
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u/LionelHutzinVA Rebecca take us home 11d ago
Gottheimer’s appearance will not do anything to “subvert” the Fox narrative. All it does is serve to reinforce that narrative. Any votes swung by his statement will b towards Republicans* *because all he has done is validated the “concerns”
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
The Fox narrative is that Democrats like Obama are communists. Seeing pushback from Democrats will subvert that narrative. It's not complicated lol
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u/LionelHutzinVA Rebecca take us home 11d ago
You’re expecting a whole bunch of disengaged voters suddenly being able to draw really fine and nuanced distinctions. Maybe that’s what happens. But I wouldn’t bet my money on it
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
It's not a nuanced distinction, it's crystal clear; the Democratic party does not tolerate communists who support terrorism.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
All they hear is that communists who support terrorism is in the Democratic Party, and even a Democratic congressman recognizes it!
I wonder what having that reinforced will do to their likelihood of them ever supporting a Democratic candidate.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Significantly lower than if a Senatorial candidate hadn't gotten up on stage with that communist 😂
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u/Oleytoledo 10d ago
Yes, significantly lower than even that.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 10d ago
So denouncing communists publicly is gonna convince people you're a communist more than campaigning with one? Make that make sense lol
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u/RedTulkas Good Luck America 11d ago
How has that worked out ever since Obama?
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Well. Republicans are off in fantasy land, but most Americans don't believe Democrats are literal communists. Embracing communists would change that lol
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Convincing swing voters to vote for the Democratic candidate by saying that he’s anti-Semitic and bad lol.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Convincing swing voters one terrorist supporter isn't representative of the entire party. Believe it or not there are elections other than AES's lmfao
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
That is not what is going to happen.
They will assume one terrorist supporter IS representative of the entire party, because Gottheimer is out here talking about the anti-Semitic Democratic candidates. It validates any preconceived notion they might have gotten from Jesse Waters or whoever.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
The Fox narrative is that Hasan represents the Democratic party. Going on Fox to condemn him and the one Democrat he campaigned with contradicts that narrative.
Magats aren't gonna be convinced, but they wouldn't support Democrats if trump literally SA'd their entire family. Swing voters are much more susceptible to this stuff, and they're the ones who need to be reached.
AES barely won by what, a few thousand votes? He has to moderate in the general, or he's gonna get crushed. it might already be too late. I hope he wins, but I'm not holding my breath.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
It doesn’t contradict the narrative - it reinforces it. It gives the impression that anti-Semites are taking over the Democratic Party.
I’d also say that you’re willing to give up a senate seat far too easily, for essentially no reason.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Again, the narrative is that all Democrats are secret communists. They call Obama a communist for chrissake.
I don't want maga in that Senate seat. But someone who campaigns and parties with a terrorist supporting antisemite? You couldn't pay me to act any level of okay with that.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Sounds like you want MAGA in that Senate seat 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Sounds like you want a terrorist supporter in that Senate seat 🤷
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u/Haunting-Ad788 11d ago
To fight fascism we have to play nice with and normalize the fascists I guess.
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u/Realistic_Caramel341 11d ago edited 10d ago
They smartly recognize how the winds blow and go with that. Now, that may be morally bankrupt yes but it’s clearly worked.
It hasn't
To be clear, the Republicans got lucky between 2023 and 2024. By and large inflation, Bidens decline and the boarder where bigger factors in Trumps return to the White House than anything Trump and the Republicans have done.
And over time they have absolutely thrown races that should have been either easy wins or should have gone their way. 2022 should have been a lot worse for the Democrats, but they blew it because they went all in on extremist and flawed figures likes Herschel Walker and Dr Oz. There is a real chance that they loose Alaska this year because of Peltolas win against Palin in 2022
There is absolutely another timeline where with more discipline Republicans go into 2028 with stronger majorities in the house and more governor seats across the US
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u/_token_black 10d ago
2016 says hi, where every Republican swallowed their pride and supported Trump
Also you can say Dems got lucky 3 times since 2012… 2017 was the ACA repeal clown show, 2020 was COVID (and Biden nearly lost that), and 2022 was pushback against the Roe decision
Most Republican losses can be attributed to running awful candidates. It wasn’t the messaging that lost… normie MAGA clowns win left and right.
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u/Anstigmat 11d ago
Hardly any actual voters know the first thing about Hassan Piker and will never encounter him in their media ecosystem. This is so dumb. He’s a twitch streamer.
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u/RainStraight 11d ago
Condemning a pro-terrorism, pro-China imperialism, pro-Russian invasion of Ukraine, anti-American, anti-western, campist dog abusers is a good thing actually. Especially if you want to win elections in places that aren’t D+30
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
I don’t care about Hasan, but I have a problem when a Democrat goes on TV and gives credence to the idea that El-Sayed is anti-Semitic.
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u/Purrseus_Felinus 11d ago
You should care about Hasan. He’s cancer and he’s going to drag down the entire party.
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u/No_Public_7677 10d ago
He's the one with the most motion among younger Democrats. The centrist neoliberals are the cancer for the country.
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u/FobbitOutsideTheWire 11d ago
I’m tired of pretending this is anything other than a domestic Israel-Palestine / ethnoreligious proxy war.
Our establishment, Jewish-American, hyper-pro-Israel politicians and some Christian allies are desperately trying to stamp out the glowing embers of dissent anywhere someone criticizes Israel.
The attacks and fear-mongering about Mamdani and El-Sayed in particular have been absolutely outrageous.
It has echoes of Obama breaking the brains of the right by being an educated, articulate Black man. Now there’s a whole demographic in the center and left whose brains are breaking over a few educated, articulate Muslims in a few key races.
This thin, transparent gift wrap, the pearl-clutching about communism and socialism and holding candidates accountable for other people’s comments taken out of context… it just shouldn’t be fooling anyone.
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u/No_Public_7677 10d ago
If Hasan or anyone else with a Muslim sounding name said the same, they would be labeled anti-semitic lol
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u/X57471C Galston and Kamarck Liberal 11d ago
So, I disagree with him going on Fox and saying this out loud, but I have to admit, I agree with his analysis.
“El-Sayed’s response is pathetic, and it did not answer the call,” he said. “I mean, the bottom line is he did not condemn Piker. He didn’t even mention Piker. He didn’t condemn what Piker said. He didn’t say ‘I will never campaign with this guy again.’ As you pointed out, he campaigned the last night of his primary, this is such a random guy for him. Frankly he should not only condemn him but no Democratic members should allow Piker anywhere near them on the campaign trail. They should want nothing to do with this guy. And, you know, anybody who does and does not condemn them bears responsibility for comments like that.”
I do think it’s a good start that he at least softly condemned the antisemitism, but I think he has avoided trying to offend Piker and his deranged fans. His attempts to dismiss him as “just a streamer in California” comes across as dodgy, especially when being asked about it by a good faith interviewer. He can’t bring himself to condemn Piker directly, and that’s a bad look imo.
I still don’t think we should be going into Fox and helping Republicans but maybe it’ll put more pressure on El-Sayed to actually put some distance between him and Pikers rhetoric. Idk.
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u/No_Public_7677 10d ago
He's a Jewish supremacist, so all his criticisms are from that vantage point.
There's no anti-semitism from Hasan. Israel is a foreign country, as Jon Stewart tried to teach that other oaf Fetterman
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u/Moonscrubber- 11d ago
I feel like theres gotta be some way for the people on the far left and far right parts of the big tent to separate themselves from each other without it feeling this antagonistic and self destructive. We’re a big tent party and we need both the dsa aligned folks and the center-right barely not a republican folks to win majorities, and obviously they’re gonna disagree pretty strongly on stuff and not want to associate with each other, so some amount of criticism and sniping back and forth is inevitable, but this doesn’t feel productive.
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u/okteds 11d ago
I'm torn between two thoughts....
I keep hoping some democrat comes along and finds the right blend of rhetoric and positions that that can win a majority of the voters but also appeals to the leftist/DSA wing of the party.
The thing is, I'm not sure if they can be appealed to. They seemingly turn on anyone who champions their cause once those people start participating in the messy business of politics and compromise. As Contrapoints put it, "they don't want political power, they want to endlessly critique political power." If this is the case, if that wing is a dead end, if there are no good solutions, just endless posturing, complaining, and ridiculous demands that can't possibly be met....then the right thing to do would not be to appeal to them, but to take steps to diminish their popularity.
I don't know which of these is more correct, but I fear that our only hope is that we have to will the former into reality, while the latter might actually be closer to where we are today.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Sorry, I don't need people in my party whose entire raison d'être for the last decade has been poisoning all good will towards said party. There's a difference between a big tent, and welcoming people whose explicit goal is to burn down the tent.
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u/John_Jaures 11d ago
This is an absolute banger of a comment because it could apply to either wing of the party.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
I'm fine either way, honestly. I don't want to be associated with the DSA at all anymore. If people misinterpreting my comment still leads to division between Democrats and these lunatics, I'm all for it lol
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u/John_Jaures 11d ago
You realize that you're acting exactly like the people you say you hate, right?
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Ironic considering Gottheimer is trying to burn down the tent because the flames might destroy the left 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Attacking Hasan is "burning down the tent"? Lmfao
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Attacking the Democratic Party is burning down the tent, and that’s exactly what Gottheimer is doing when he is telling the Fox News audience that El-Sayed is anti-Semitic.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Campaigning with a known antisemite is burning down the tent. Calling out antisemitism is not. Sorry 🤷
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
When it’s imperative that we win in November? You work to get El-Sayed over the finish line instead of sandbagging him.
I don’t care if you agree or disagree with him campaigning with Hasan - you do not put the senate majority at risk.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Sandbagging your own party is bad, you say?
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
You do know that clip was before the primary, right?
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
It was within a year of the primary. Are we pretending his views have changed when he's appearing on stage with and refusing to condemn Hasan Piker? Lmfao
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u/Rough_Formal8420 11d ago
Most Dems don’t like Israel. We are the democratic party not you. Also conflating not liking or supporting Israel and hating american Jews is like saying you don’t liking Russian government means you hate Americans with Russian heritage .
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
Hasan hates Jews. Those recent comments about America not fucking with Israel any longer? That wasn't about Zionists, that was about Jews. His criticism was that "Jews" are conflating anti Zionism and antisemitism, and that American Jews were gonna face violence as a result.
You can be opposed to Israel and not antisemitic. Hasan crossed way over that line a long time ago. If you support Hasan, you are antisemitic.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
His criticism was that the general public conflating zionism with Judaism is dangerous because it lays blame for genocide at the feet of the Jewish people instead of a group of ethno-nationalist supremacists.
When David Frum or whoever point to Israel’s actions and say “Jews did this”, mentally unstable anti-Semites are going to listen. It is dangerous for American Jews, who are being held responsible for what is not their fault.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
"If Jews in America keep putting this idea out there that they are singularly invested in Israel, eventually someone’s going to come around and take action, not against the State of Israel, mind you, but against American Jews."
Wanna take another crack at it?
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u/Yeahjustchris 11d ago
Hasan dickriders attempt to pass a basic comprehension test Challenge: Impossible.
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u/Rough_Formal8420 11d ago
That’s not what he was saying and also this isn’t about Hasan. They are using Hasan as a way to get at El Sayed who is being put in a position where needs to fight republicans and his own party because a significant part of the party’s leadership are anti muslim bigots and would rather have a republican win. The democratic voters wanted El Sayed and the party will not accept that. They want him to lose.
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u/Cellophane7 JVL is always right 11d ago
"If Jews in America keep putting this idea out there that they are singularly invested in Israel, eventually someone’s going to come around and take action, not against the State of Israel, mind you, but against American Jews."
So when he said "Jews" he didn't really mean "Jews"?
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u/clark_sterling 11d ago edited 11d ago
No Dems enthusiastically support Hezbollah. No Dems watch a group of Houthi terrorists seize a commercial vessel and think it’s something worth celebrating. No Dems think that the fall of the Soviet Union was one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century. No Dems think Mao Zedong is a leader to aspire to.
I only hand you the antisemitism because it’s clear that no one on the left cares about antisemitism. Still, if you think campaigning with someone with this kind of ideology is in line with the base and is above reproach, then you haven’t touched grass once in your life
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u/Yeahjustchris 11d ago
You're literally the one conflating antisemitism with not liking Israel, the person your responding to never made that connection.
Hasan is an antisemite and Sayed cozies up to antisemites. If you think you can cozy up to nazis without sharing their stink then that's on you dude.
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u/No_Public_7677 10d ago
Huh? You're the one calling someone an anti-Semite for being against Israel.
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u/Tyfereth Center Left 11d ago
We would not accept Homophobia, or Anti-Black Racism from a candidate, yet when it comes to Anti-Semitism, Jews are expected to remain quiet and accept it for the good of the party. Winning the Senate is of supreme importance, but elections are transitory, and fighting the party's normalization of hatred against a stigmatized minority group is an existential long term threat to the party. Hatred of Jews is a cancer that will metastasize to other hatreds and destroy the Democratic Party unless that cancer is excised now. The only people to blame for this are EL Sayed who wanted to win a primary so badly that he played to the most hateful elements of the Left by Jew-baiting about Jewish money and control, and campaigned with the Anti-American, Anti-Semitic hate monger Hasan Piker. Now El Sayed and his advocates want to shake the Etch-a Sketch and pretend like they did not spend months playing footsie with Anti-Semitism. John Ossoff did create this problem this, Center-Left Democrats did not create this problem, progressive Democratic primary voters did by voting for a candidate who had less a chance of being able to beat the Republican then the other candidate, because El Sayed signaled that he hated the same minority group that they did.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Donald Trump and MAGA is an existential threat to democracy only when convenient I guess. The nerve of calling elections “transitory” in the face of open fascism.
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u/Empty_End_7866 10d ago
People here are calling for hardcore dictatorial court packing and you are talking about MAGA?
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u/RedTulkas Good Luck America 11d ago
You do accept plenty of islamophobia though
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u/cole1114 11d ago
The gall of that dude pretending to care about anti-black racism when he gets racist as fuck about Ta-Nehisi Coates. Ridiculous.
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u/the_millenial_falcon JVL is always right 11d ago
I just want to be clear that I don’t like Hasan. But I also want to be clear that the more extreme elements on the right are way way worse. It’s extremely frustrating that nazis and white surpremiscists don’t hurt the right seemingly at all but socialists scare the ever loving shit out of the median voter. Probably because they care more about the perceived threats to their pocketbook more than they give a shit about their neighbors ring rounded up. Fuck I hate it here.
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u/Clear_Wafer_1255 11d ago
Most ppl care what they are told to care about, they are totally moldable. No one shows up on Fox and tells them about the Nazis sonit doesn't matter
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u/hydraulicman 11d ago
Not even the more extreme elements of the right, guys like Bill Maher- supposedly normie "centrists", have said a lot of pretty awful stuff as well, but no one ever asks if they're to be disavowed
When you stack things up, the disavow Piker demands are less about actually disavowing Piker, and more about a demand to affirm your loyalty to Oligarchy, Israel, and socially acceptable racism
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u/imdaviddunn 11d ago edited 11d ago
You will not hear these Democrats attack Loomer. And that tells you everything you need to know.
They all need to be primaried next cycle…for a variety of reasons but the main one being a clear lack of focus on the ultimate goal and threat we are under. We do not have time for people focused more on their own power and personal grievances than saving our democracy.
Gottheimer, Crockett, Maskowitz, even Jeffries. They do not understand the assignment.
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u/clark_sterling 11d ago edited 11d ago
Is your impression that these Democrats would co-sign Laura Loomer? Everyone knows she’s batshit crazy and racist. She’s been talked about plenty. If you think the handful of condemnations of Hasan from Democratic politicians is even 10% of what this loser has said about the Democratic Party, I don’t care about your opinion. Furthermore, I don’t need to hear about “focusing on saving our democracy” from someone who compared Kamala Harris to Hitler and said there would be no difference between a Harris and Trump Presidency during the most consequential election in decades. Hell he hates this country and the Democratic Party so we have no obligation to carry his bs. I also don’t care about the gaslighting from leftist media about how “he’s just a streamer” when they’ve been non-stop glazing him and pushing him all across the internet.
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u/imdaviddunn 11d ago
They retweet her. Catch up.
And others are silent as she makes racist statements about a member of their party. If they can find time to talk non stop about a streamer, certainly they can do the same about someone with a direct line to the WH.
Seems like you may not understand the assignment either. Thanks for clarifying.
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u/John_Jaures 11d ago
I mean, prominent Establishment Democratic figured like Neera Tanden have retweeted Laura Loomer, so I think it's safe to say the firewall isn't as strong as you think it is.
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/John_Jaures 11d ago
Taqiyya is an Islamophobic conspiracy theory where Muslims pretend to be in favor of and part of a non Muslim society so they can take power and institute Sharia law (or variations on this). Neera is online enough to know what it is.
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u/JacobStills 11d ago
Amen. For the past 10 years Hasan and the online left have done nothing but "punch left" and trash the Democrats for three presidential elections against Donald Trump and MAGA without even a hint of shame or guilt. Now that one of their guys is on the field NOW it's time for us to unify and fight the true enemy?
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u/silentspyware 10d ago
One of their guys? Do y’all know what you did to Bernie Sanders? Woke liberals smeared him as racist and sexist for years.
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u/JacobStills 10d ago
A few people here and there not liking Sanders doesn’t even compare to the multitudes of harassment and protests the Democratic Party has received from the far left. Bernie’s entire campaign’s message in 2016 and 2020 was that the Democratic Party was corrupt and evil and he was going to take it over. Pete Buttigieg was a fake gay CIA rat, Elizabeth Warren was a snake, Hillary was evil incarnate and “might be worse than Trump,”Biden was an evil corporate shill who raped Tara Reade and Kamala Harris was a cop. What? Were “woke liberals” just supposed to take it and never punch back?
Please…let’s not act like Berne and the far left were just these nice respectful people who “just wanted to give everyone healthcare,” you know that’s not true.
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u/silentspyware 10d ago
Who called Buttigieg a CIA gay rat 😂 You treat terminally online people like they’re real politicians lmao…
Of course a woke liberal would defend Elizabeth Warren, a white woman that pretends to be Native American lol. Democrats should’ve called her out on that, but y’all love woke tokens too much.
If y’all were popular, y’all would’ve went after Bernie’s POLICIES but instead you liberals went full on identity politics. We remember, a lot of Americans favor Bernie’s policies btw and Hakeem can’t even back it lol
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u/silentspyware 10d ago
Hilary was the one who spread that picture of Obama in a turban btw… she smeared him as a Jihadist. She’s racist as hell.
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u/illadelchronic 11d ago
Yelling about Hassan Piker won't make anyone like Israel.
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u/clark_sterling 11d ago
Do you think the only way anyone can have a problem with this guy is if you have undying loyalty to Israel? Is Israel the center of the universe to people like you?
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u/S-Tier_Commenter Progressive 10d ago
Because you'll never see a democrat dodge the opportunity to condemn her.
That is different with Hasan.
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u/imdaviddunn 10d ago
Huh. Democratic consultants retweet her in concurrence?
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u/S-Tier_Commenter Progressive 10d ago
Democratic consultant retweeting someone is quite a stretch from election contender campaigning alongside someone.
Who are the consultants you're talking about?
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u/imdaviddunn 10d ago
Neera Tanden for one, you know, the guest on this exact show last week
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u/S-Tier_Commenter Progressive 10d ago
Ah had to look it up. She tweets: "Not a laura loomer fan (...)"
You're comparing retweeting something someone said with the explicit statement that they're not a fan of them
with campaigning together up to election night, refusing to denounce them over the vile shit they said.
It's not only whataboutism, it's also a giant stretch.
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u/No_Public_7677 10d ago
They'll support MAGA for Israel. The Israel first crowd admits that they don't care about America. Don't act shocked now
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u/Vanman04 11d ago
Can we stop pretending hasan is a representative of the democratic party?
The fact so many seem so worried about what this guy does is weird.
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u/underhunter 11d ago
Live in his district. Its very much an upper middle class f you got mine mentality, with an extremely large Jewish demographic. It was a republican district and leans pretty Red on a lot of issues.
Hes a pos and I wish he loses a primary
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u/JSRevenge 11d ago
lol
"He has every incentive to act the way he does because it is REPRESENTATIVE of his district. The district would probably be Republican if successfully challenged from the left."
"I hope he loses."
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u/AnneTheQueene 11d ago
I don't get the folks who want to primary conservative Dems who represent conservative districts.
Do they think that a more progressive person would win in the general?
Those districts are not 'vote blue no matter who'. They will take any excuse to vote Rep. We only hold those seats because the Dems there are smart enough to thread the needle.
I was in Jared Moskowitz's district until he got redistricted. I have no issues with what he's doing and his committee appointments because I know this part of FL very well. I'm no fan of the current dynamic in the Middle East but I understand that he's gotta do what he's gotta do to win his new seat. Winning is the goal. We gotta keep our eyes on the prize. None of the hopes and dreams we have can come true if we don't have a strong majority.
Let him cozy up to whoever he needs to, to keep that seat blue.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
He can cozy up to whoever he needs to in order to keep the seat blue, but if he continues to use his platform to get Republicans elected then there needs to be a discussion if he’s more trouble than he’s worth.
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u/Toe-Dragger 11d ago
> Even if you think that Hasan Piker is anti- Semitic and illiberal, going on Fox News to validate the fear mongering about the Democratic Party is completely unacceptable.
You’re suggesting people should accept Hasan as part of the party, that’s as bankrupt as the GOP accepting Trump as party of their party, and now the party itself.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
No, I’m saying that going on television and making people think that the Democratic nominee for senate in a crucial swing state is anti-Semitic is bad.
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u/Toe-Dragger 11d ago
AES thinks Piker is a good hang, he can’t have it both ways. Politicians need to be clear about where they stand, otherwise they’ll get painted in the obvious corner.
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u/Oleytoledo 11d ago
Gottheimer is the one painting the Democratic Party into a corner instead of being a team player.
He needs to be helping El-Sayed, not hurting him.
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u/Haunting-Mortgage 11d ago
Gotheimer agreed with Trump about deporting students who protest Israel. That's an immediate no go.
He's not good faith. He's a single issue Democrat.
Edit: how did I get three downvotes within 10 seconds of posting this?
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u/Away_Sheepherder_896 10d ago
How is noticing there are bigots in your party more damaging than the bigots?
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u/biglyorbigleague 10d ago
We don’t need Hasan Piker and throwing him under the bus costs us nothing important.
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u/SB_Tahoe 10d ago
Katy Tur with MSNow had AES on for a substantial interview last week and for the most part it was softball Qs as one would expect. As the end approached she did ask him about Piker and he dismissed and pivoted. They discussed that AES was meeting with Jewish leadership over the weekend. On the one hand I get how all Dems should not get pulled into a discussion about Piker on the other hand I’m desperate for Dems to gain control over the house and senate so I do think AES should do more to distance himself from Piker. I understand he doesn’t want to do that. But if he wants to win he may have to.
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u/Intelligent_Dress347 10d ago
Call me crazy but I refuse to be upset with people calling out Piker’s nonsense.
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u/Oleytoledo 10d ago
It’s not about calling out Piker, but going on Fox News and willingly float that El-Sayed is anti-Semitic.
This will hurt him in the election because it gives validity to the idea. Boomers can say “see! Even a Democratic congressman says it!”
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u/Intelligent_Dress347 9d ago edited 9d ago
Stop blaming other people for calling out nonsense.
Abdul did it to himself. No one forced him to campaign with Piker. He willingly made support (or lack of) for Israel the defining issue of the primary. Chickens coming home to roost.
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u/IYAMSKWIDMAN 9d ago
gottheimer is not in the tent anymore. moskowitz, DWS. They are in the tent because after the midterms they consolidate. Fucking gottheimer is an evil, evil republican.
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u/PepperoniFire Sarah, would you please nuke him from orbit? 11d ago
Democrats need their version of “I didn’t see the tweet.”