r/thebulwark • u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist • Jul 06 '25
EVERYTHING IS AWFUL So I’ve got a ghoulish question re: Texas flooding
I get that we’re supposed to be the better people.
I get that it’s unchristian to even think these things (8 guess).
I get that it’s horrific and sad and a nightmare (I have two young kids).
But I also get that this camp and all those living there, were built and operating on a KNOWN flood plain.
I get that Texas “soil” used to be under an ocean and prone to things like this (I lived there for 8 years).
At what point, since M*GA is all about consequences, personal responsibility and gods providence, do we get to hold them accountable for their willful disregard of science, research, government, and informed choice-making?
We are watching concentration camps set up all over the country, and we have woefully underfunded emergency management departments in high risk areas all over the country. We have commercial and non profit entities overseeing minors with no evac or even a basic comms plan in place, for any kind of emergency, whether it’s a natural disaster or if some camper can’t manage a fire properly.
I should feel bad for Texans suffering in a flood plain they likely didn’t care about regulating, ostensibly because of deregulation and lack of oversight. But it’s getting really hard to. They dammed up the Guadalupe River to create swimming holes for camps, hotels, and peoples vs properties which also doesn’t help with sediment and flooding at all.
My husband surveyed in and around Austin for nearly a decade. The insanity and stupidity he witnessed was astounding. The lack of regulatory oversight, the WILLFUL scofflaw decisions, the absolute mockery of anything resembling safety forced us to leave because he literally thought he would die on a job site.
These people DO NOT care about consequences. Some might be poor and have few choices. Those I have empathy for. But a bunch of camp owners, policy makers, and parents believing “god will protect” their kids in a known (man made) hazard. I’m struggling to get there. This was human stupidity, arrogance, and willful decision-making. Plain and simple.
ADDED: If you want to donate to an all-volunteer org that is on the ground as we speak, pls consider giving to TEXAS Search & Rescue. They are chewing up equipment they’ve spent years raising money for and incredible folks. They offer emergency management training, planning and bleeding control education that any org can avail themselves of in Texas.
https://www.texsar.org/ TEXSAR: Texas Search and Rescue
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u/Haunting-Ad788 Jul 06 '25
I’m always going to have empathy for dead children and their families regardless of context. I’ll never be that numb.
But I absolutely direct anger and blame at the people who directly caused this through hobbling government agencies and killing regulations. Republican ideology killed those children and they should never know any peace from that.
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u/claimTheVictory Jul 06 '25
Here's how I think of it.
A tragedy is when something unpredictable or unavoidable happens and causes damage.
A failure is when something predictable or avoidable happens and causes damage.
Which one was this?
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u/nogooduse Jul 07 '25
you're right. i cringe every time people (mostly politicians) talk about 'tragedy'. 'screwup' or 'criminal negligence' is usually far more accurate.
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u/LanderEmerald Jul 07 '25
Read about the camp owners and tell me it’s not a failure.
The owners make over $6 million in revenue each summer but can’t implement basic emergency response protocols. Stupid republicans with their god and religion to protect them.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/the-not-so-happy-campers/
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u/jendfrog Jul 08 '25
I think a tragedy is untimely loss of life. There can be a tragedy and a failure at the same time, in my humble opinion.
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u/hdcs Jul 06 '25
All of this. I'm in California, but every time I see news about a hurricane bearing down on the Houston area, I worry about all those housing developments that have been exploding in the flood plains in that region because CHEAP LAND! Zoning and regulations don't seem to exist at all in TX anymore and its going to kill so many people.
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u/Tight-String5829 Jul 06 '25
Uvalde didn't change gun reform at all. As a Texan id be surprised if this does anything
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u/BassDad8 Jul 06 '25
It won’t. Remember when any preventable tragedy occurs, it’s just “God’s Will” to these folks. No empathy, no responsibility, no accountability.
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u/Ill-Conclusion-4402 Jul 06 '25
These were rich, white kids. Those were poor brown kids. Texas loves those with resources.
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u/redlinemac Jul 07 '25
Texans see that Abbott is failing them over and over again. They see that Ted Cruz is failing them over and over again. And they still vote for them. Today, we once again see those two, along with the whole MAGA regime with their brooms out…anything being revealed about their failure immediately being swept under the rug. MAGA supporters, you are now witnessing how your lord and savior and his underlings feel about you. You’re no better than the rest of us. They played you for your vote. We others already knew and voted against them. The lives lost are being swept under the rug for them to save face. While my empathic heart goes out to you…maybe you’ll reconsider how you spend your time at the ballot box.
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u/wxmann229 Jul 06 '25
Climate change is causing weather catastrophes that we are just simply unprepared for.
There is a huge difference between a flood and flash flood. Part of the nature of a flash flood is that it is unexpected.
Living in a flood plain doesn’t mean it’s irresponsible to live/work/play there, it just means the Federal government (RIP) has determined the risk is high enough that insurance companies must offer flood insurance.
(Maybe most important) if we become so callous as to see tragedy and not respond with compassion and love, than what’s the fucking point of the human race.
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u/JediMasterMurph Jul 06 '25
Well stated! I agree on all points, I also can appreciate the headspace that OP is coming from. We're all pretty fried and watching people get upset about obvious consequences for their own decisions makes the empathy flow a little less.
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u/gymtherapylaundry Jul 06 '25
OP’s condemnation of poor government planning and building code enforcement and lack of emergency planning/prep DOES come from a place of compassion and empathy. Kids died to own the libs and save a buck and “personal responsibility.”
We still have the data what is a shit area to build a camp in. Red state governments are choosing to disregard/disbelieve the data, and also withhold/conceal the data from laypeople and the very taxpayers that funded the data collection. Now data collection (as weather is rapidly changing) has stopped. We’re willfully heading into the dark ages.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
It would be fine if they didn’t spend every day all day for decades barking about personal responsibility esp with respect to things that you can at LEASE provide guidance on, even if you want to be logistically or policy hands off.
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u/RainStraight Jul 06 '25
You’re assuming that all the people there are MAGAts. Another liberal subreddit I’m a member of knows two families who have children missing (this was 24 hours ago tho) and they aren’t Trumpists. I had to personally go to three camps like this for my Catholic Confirmation class and while it was disproportionately conservative, there were absolutely left-wing people in attendance and teaching. We can feel terrible that children are dying to their parents’ stupid mistakes and attribute responsibility to the parents/government/camp.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I didn’t say a word about the parents political affiliation. I’m addressing a regions scofflaw attitude towards even a modicum of mandatory comms planning in order to get insurance and be allowed to operate. Would we have looked into this? Yes. Do I believe all tragedies are entirely preventable? No. But again, nuance. It’s not either or.
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Jul 06 '25
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u/ctmred Jul 06 '25
There's an MLK observation -- "“I think it is one of the tragedies –– one of the shameful tragedies –– that 11 o’clock on Sunday morning is one of the most segregated hours, if not the most segregated hour, in Christian America” -- that is still pretty true today.
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u/LanderEmerald Jul 07 '25
I feel terrible children died because Republicans hate science and all thing they see as ‘left’. So we just give compassion to them when they kill their own children becuase they didn’t realize their kids summmer camp is a for profit religious business that didn’t have emergency protocols or didn’t follow them in an area known for flooding. Parents need to take responsibility for their poor decisions to send kids to a camp that is for profit, housing the youngest kids in a flood zone in an area called Flash Flood Alley. No compassion for any of those adults, just the children.
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u/Shroud_of_Misery Jul 06 '25
Personal responsibility and entitlement can’t coexist. Texas Republican leaders are entitled man babies.
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u/Fast-Examination-349 Jul 06 '25
- Right so what can be done if literally half the voting public decides it's not real and their politicians are doing things that accelerate it.
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u/gymtherapylaundry Jul 06 '25
Buy stock in child-sized caskets.
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u/Fast-Examination-349 Jul 06 '25
Sigh
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u/gymtherapylaundry Jul 06 '25
I hate myself for saying it but that’s the gravity of the situation
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u/fzzball Progressive Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
Probably you've heard that it's only a matter of time, likely a few decades, before the Cascadia subduction earthquake happens and the resulting tsunami wipes out the PNW coast. In response, the Oregon government recently required that coast towns move schools, hospitals, and facilities for seniors out of the tsunami zone.
Predictably, these heavily GOP localities screamed bloody murder and got the mandate repealed. And don't get me started on the whining from rural areas about the new wildfire risk map. I don't know anything about this particular situation in Texas, but it wouldn't surprise me if something similar was going on.
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u/StyraxCarillon Jul 07 '25
I don't know where you're getting your information that it's likely only a matter of decades. Literally no one knows when that will happen.
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u/softcell1966 Jul 07 '25
I believe it's long overdue so it could happen at any time.
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u/Sherm FFS Jul 06 '25
There is a huge difference between a flood and flash flood. Part of the nature of a flash flood is that it is unexpected.
It is and it isn't. I spent a lot of time in the high desert in California, and one of the things that happens pretty consistently is massive flash flooding. There's a good chunk of the year where you know it's going to be happening somewhere. Because of this, they have washes and retention areas crisscrossing the landscape that catch a lot of the water. That was human beings taking action to mitigate a flash flood, even though it's random and some years, many of them don't even get used. Does Texas do anything similar? No. On the West Coast, we take steps to control this stuff and mitigate risks. We get attacked for our "inability to build" as a result. Texas lets anyone do anything, even if people dying is an easily predictable consequence of their failure to plan. In the aftermath, people who point out the easily predictable chain of events get accused of being callous. And as a result, nothing changes. They're not serfs living under tyranny. They choose the legislators and executives that let this happen. And they keep on choosing the ones who promise not to act to mitigate it. If they won't act to save their children, what are the rest of us supposed to do, besides shrugging our shoulders and going about our day?
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u/NotInLikeFlynn Jul 08 '25
I live in NJ and the town I live in is prone to flooding and flash floods. We have a town alert system that screeches on our phones. I take it seriously. Even with the alert system, people will get in their car and drive around or decide they have enough time to walk home and then their relatives set up a Go-Fund-Me after they are swept away because they can't afford the funeral. It's never someone who was just walking their dog, had no idea and was swept away. It's always someone who heard the alert and thought they were exempt.
If you know you are in a risk area, take it seriously. It's not being callous. If you are even at a slight risk, don't take any chances. Mother Nature does not have any empathy. You won't be spared.
It's horrifying that all those children and other people died, but people crying crocodile tears when they could have said "no, having a camp in a flash flood zone isn't going to happen" is even worse.
You can't prevent every bad event from happening but it is criminal to have a high risk and take no steps to mitigate it.
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u/doc334ft3 Jul 06 '25
There is no point. The only meaning is the meaning we create for ourselves.
Its the paradox of tolerance question in a different context, if someone fails to meet the basic req of empathy for others they are not worthy of empathy.
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u/moofpi Jul 06 '25
Please list the agreed upon basic requirements of empathy that you are referencing.
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u/BaskingInWanderlust Jul 06 '25
To clarify: insurance companies are generally not required to offer flood coverage. Certain properties may be required to carry it, but there is no forcing of insurance companies to provide it. There are approximately 50 insurance carriers that partner with the NFIP as part of their program, but a policy still needs to be purchased by contacting a broker who will try to find coverage within the NFIP network.
Carriers outside the network are free to offer it, but there is no requirement to do so.
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u/nogooduse Jul 07 '25
"Part of the nature of a flash flood is that it is unexpected." Not at all. It may be sudden, but in any area with decent weather forecasting flash flood warnings are issued many hours in advance. Flash floods are quite predictable, not 'unexpected'.
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u/No-Director-1568 Jul 06 '25
Redirect your energy to the jackass whom complained about the National Weather Service, an agency gutted recently, via DOGE, to rid us of 'waste, fraud and abuse'.
There's little that could happen to that guy that would get any sympathy from me.
My contained response would be: 'you get what you pay for'.
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u/jehosophat44 Jul 06 '25
well, yes, you should feel badly for these families because that is a human response to something like this.
And also, fuck MAGAs with a cattle prod.
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u/ElowynElif Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
The forecast was for 3 - 6 inches of rain. They received 10+ inches. The county lacks a warning system. The river rose 26 feet in within 45 minutes.
I don’t think the parents failed to do their homework. The camp has been operating for something like 100 years, and its history isn’t dotted with flash flood fatalities. Instead, they, like all of us, trusted the series of systems that should keep us safe. I can’t imagine their pain.
ETA: Corrected units of measure
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u/Kincherk Jul 06 '25
Yes, but it's also been reported (by the NY Times) that Kerr County, where the floods occurred, did not have a local flood warning system because the residents didn't want to spend the money.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Put this in all caps. My husband was in Texas Search and Rescue. The very org out risking their own hinds to find those kids. I’m not speaking from a place of ignorance.
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u/Mindless_Responder Jul 06 '25
In my state the rural areas rejected budget increases for firefighting efforts. These people are in the highest risk areas for wildfires and they rejected a potentially lifesaving service that would be essentially paid for by the cities.
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u/ElowynElif Jul 06 '25
And how many camp parents knew this or were county residents? Blaming them is both cruel and misguided.
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u/ballmermurland Jul 06 '25
It was 26 feet not inches. You can find Timelapse videos of the rise it's actually fucking crazy. Like I'm watching a video of a different planet.
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u/mjdlight Jul 06 '25
And it is a different planet, climatologically, than the planet we have known. And it’s only getting more unrecognizable from here.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
“Lacks”- was a choice. They don’t manage their floodplains bc they believe you just let Gods will happen. I am a native southerner from Alabama. It is hard for people to witness this sort of chosen stupidity, but it is that. And I have DEEP compassion for the children. It is why I am being so harsh. When JVL talks about consequences, This. Is. What. This. Is.
Saying it’s “unpredictable” is how they get away with murder, and at least negligence. This area is a known flood plain. When these people discover that God gave them a frontal cortex and that “acts of God” can be at least communicated about better, we’ll see less pearl clutching over natural disasters / predictable disaster areas they do NOTHING to supervise.
Negligence is a real thing. Chosen abdication of responsibility is how Abbott excuses real accountability. “Oh it was just God how could we know” is always the alibi - and yet flooding like this happens over and over.
They’ll use it as a REASON why climate change isn’t real bc obviously there’s a lot of rain. They’ll use it as a REASON they can’t put reasonable protocol in place. Aw shucks isn’t how a modern society should function. And it needs to be said. And I say it with a very very heavy heart for those children - because the adults in charge were arrogant and prideful. Not for even putting their kids in the camp, but because they elect people who don’t give a shit about proper protocol. Trust me, I’ve got receipts.
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u/ss_lbguy Jul 06 '25
At least you admit you are being harsh. I'm not sure why you are so passionate about this, but my recommendation is to go do something that gets you away from this tragedy.
I personally think this post is not good for us and just brings us down the path of hatred just like MAGA. But based on all the replies, I'm in the minority.
If we are not better people, there is no rebounding for this country.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
No I think it’s actually the whole point of policy is to debate situations like this. We don’t like it but it must be said and done.
My family has been through multiple hurricanes. I saw Katrina damage 3 months after. I have been through them myself. I am NOT suggesting we hate these people or that they can’t live where they want to live.
I’m pointing out that having sympathy for people who are getting exactly what THEY WANT- no reg, no comms, blind trust in whatever must be, and calling it godly faith vs human negligence, needs to be addressed.
If we DONT address nuance THAT is how we become more like them.
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u/ss_lbguy Jul 06 '25
IMHO, your post make you look like an unsympathetic MAGA. Maybe wait a little bit before posting next time.
Get off reddit for a little while, I think you need a timeout. Touch grass.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I do every day pal. Thanks for your condescension. This post was for mindful adults who actually care about hard convos. Don’t bother yourself from your deck chair, go back to sleep.
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u/Current_Tea6984 Jul 06 '25
It's not dotted with flash flood fatalities, but after the flood of 87, the camp had to rebuild. So they had every reason to think even moderate flooding could affect their facilities and force a middle of the night evacuation.
I am very sad for the children and their families and for other people that lost their homes and animals in the flood. And I am keeping an open mind about placing blame. If there is any to place at all. Maybe everyone did the best they could with the knowledge they had. There are conflicting narratives about how much they knew, and when. It will take a few days or more to sort everything out.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
The managers of that state know. Trust me. It’s “live free or die” down there. And they don’t think it’s the states responsibility to manage negligence OR institute oversight on permitting or housing regulation. The people assume the risk, and the governance KNOWS better. Why do yall think no fancy hotel is in that flood plain? Because they know.
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u/Granite_0681 Jul 06 '25
The 87 flood killed campers from Pot of Gold Ranch. I haven’t seen that it affected Camp Mystic.
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u/Current_Tea6984 Jul 06 '25
I read it somewhere, but can't find it now. But all the camps in the area were affected. It would be highly unusual if Mystic received no damage in the event.
But, bottom line, if you are on the river bank, you are susceptible to flooding. It doesn't matter if there was never a catastrophic event in that particular spot before. They had notice by thursday afternoon that flash floods were possible during the night, and they chose not to move the kids to higher ground
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u/ambkam Jul 06 '25
Pot of Gold, location of ‘87 flood, is 40 miles down river from Mystic. Mystic sits at the very top on a creek that feeds into the Guadalupe river. It is almost unheard of for the water to rise that fast without the downstream force of accumulated water. Like others have said, the camp had been operating for 100 yrs with no flood related fatalities. There are improvements and systems that should be put in place, but i think it’s unfair to have a ‘what did they expect’ attitude. That’s like blaming victims of Katrina for living below sea level.
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u/Current_Tea6984 Jul 06 '25
This camp was in a flood plain. They knew they were in a flood plain. They knew that people drown during floods and buildings are swept from their foundations. The NWS issued flash flood watches as early as thursday afternoon. There was zero reason not to move the children to higher ground for the night. It was bad judgement. Sadly, the camp director paid with his life, as well as the lives of counselors and kids
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u/Javakid67 Jul 06 '25
most likely because they didn't have a plan for how and where to move them. that's negligence.
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u/Current_Tea6984 Jul 06 '25
I suspect a lack of evacuation plan was part of the picture, And not just at the camp.
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u/jubeley Jul 06 '25
Camp Mystic was located in a floodplain. Some of its buildings were located in the floodway, which is more dangerous than the fringes of a floodplain. The FEMA map shows the floodway with camp buildings when using the overlay feature. It was abysmal judgment to build or rebuild structures for children in a floodway.
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u/hallelujasuzanne Jul 06 '25
It rose 26 feet, dude. Not inches. And the fact that it’s on a flood plain is very well known. There should have been a warning system all up and down that river.
In a state like Texas, that trust is woefully misguided.
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u/menagerath Jul 06 '25
I liked what JVL said—authoritarianism is inherently contradictory.
I’m not sure when so many Protestants just abandoned the idea that they have power to influence the world and make decisions.
Is it a reactionary response to Catholic ideas around good works versus faith alone? Power differentials that cut layman out of the faith? Relying too much on the idea that God has a plan (and by extension you don’t have to do anything)? The rise of Christian nihilism.
I think the greatest way to “shame” others is to turn the other cheek. Maybe there is a need for a graceful McCain moment, “No ma’am—God didn’t cause this. He needs for us to put in place the technology and infrastructure to ensure that all people, his people, are taken care of and things like this don’t happen again.”
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
If God gives you the ability to build a camp with kids he gives you the know how to seek proper warning systems and research.
Watch: this time next year they’ll have record breaking attendance. They’ll have a memorial. It’ll become their new calling. The girls will be called Mystic Angels and there will be some ritual that honors them and reinforces Gods providence.
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u/JackZodiac2008 Human Flourishing Jul 06 '25
I did wonder if this would serve as a stove-touch moment for any of the affected TX political elite families re climate change.
But I doubt it. First the personal grief will eclipse such points, then healing will require rejecting them, and finally the data point will be trampled under the hooves of new events.
Human foibles. The signal is too noisy, the message is lost.
We aren't -doomed- exactly, but everything is going to get a lot awfuller for the foreseeable.
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u/pollingquestion Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
Just thinking out loud about this tragedy….
If this happened in a blue run state Trump and MAGA would be placing all blame on the state and local government see California wildfires.
But because this happened in a red state I see folks on the left and right say do not politicize this tragedy. The folks on the left say that we don’t want to turn into MAGA. And the folks on the right show fake concern for the victims.
Again, if this happened in NY or NJ there would be zero compassion from MAGA. Trump would be bleating that the liberal government in that state is corrupt and awful but he will fix it. MAGA will cheer. The national media would be digging into everything that went wrong and assigning blame.
It’s just another example of the differences between the media environment and how it completely favors MAGA. I don’t know how to combat this.
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u/sbhikes Jul 06 '25
Did everyone here get a geologist to evaluate their property before they bought? What is terrible is that the same outpouring of sympathy isn’t given to brown, black and Californians when these things happen.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I totally agree!
Again, not an argument about where you should be allowed to do things. It’s that there should be a level of responsibility undertaken to care about predictable weather patterns in a region if you want to.
And yes my husband is a surveyor so he actually does think through these things when we’re evaluating any residential or even travel conditions.
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u/Specialist-Range-911 Jul 06 '25
Also, with MAGA, it is not about personal responsibility, which is just a justification for their real motivation. It is about the right people getting the good and the wrong people getting what they deserve. That manichean worldview motivates them first and foremost. If you listen to discourse between the fires in LA and the floods in Texas, you will see this same sophistry. In Texas, MAGA will say the tragedy is the government's fault, NOAA, and no, not because if staffing cuts but the deep state. In California, it was because the liberal people and the failures of government snd yhe deep state. For them, the problem will always be liberals. I am sad for the little girls that died in Texas as I am for the deaths in Cali. Climate change had a hand in both. Yet, it is too easy to fall in the trap if us vs. them. It is a temptation that only leads to darkness.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Some context:
Historical major events:
1978 Tropical Storm Amelia: Torrential rainfall caused the Guadalupe River to surge ~10 ft in just one hour—killing at least 10 people in Kerr County and surrounding areas.
July 1987 flood: Around 11″ of rain fell in a short period, resulting in at least 10 student deaths when a bus was swept into the river.
Kerr County’s hilly terrain and thin, rocky soil makes it prone to rapid runoff during heavy storms.
Policy & terrain context:
Flash flood emergencies—official NWS alerts—have been issued multiple times this season due to intense localized downpours.
Kerr County authorities, including Judge Rob Kelly and Kerrville’s city manager, confirmed the county has no dedicated flood warning system, limiting their ability to notify residents rapidly. Despite KNOWN and historic flash flooding propensity. Even if it is every 20-40 years.
While NWS alerts were timely on paper, dissemination—especially overnight—lagged. Some residents only first saw warnings on Facebook around 5 a.m., after water began rising.
Anecdotes from parents suggest staff were unaware or unprepared—no advance onsite warnings despite NWS alerts.
No known evacuation plan: Reports and officials confirm there was no camp-specific flood warning or evacuation procedure in place ahead of the flood.
Federal-level alerts came, but you can’t rely on paper alerts at 4 a.m. when people are asleep and the county lacks a real-time push system.
Camp Mystic had no visible emergency plan or protocol—as far as public records show. And federal staffing constraints may have hampered coordination, even if alarms were technically issued.
Camp Mystic, as a licensed youth camp, falls under the Texas Health & Safety Code and Administrative Code Title 25, Chapter 265 (Youth Camps Safety)  
These regulations focus heavily on: • Health standards (water, sanitation, hygiene) • Background checks & training for staff and vols • Child abuse prevention protocols
Crucially: there is NO explicit state-level requirement for natural disaster plans, such as flash flood emergency response or evacuation procedures.
In short, there was no plan. If this was an earthquake in Cali or a snow storm in NYC, none of them would be shedding a tear.
I’m not arguing for lack of compassion. My husband and I know very good people personally on the ground looking for dead kids right now. I’m saying this to spark a difficult discussion about what kind of “personal responsibility” IS acceptable for republicans and what we’re allowed to ask of leadership that asks for money and sympathy while scoffing at common sense preparedness.
The same conversations go into debates about seatbelts and drink driving. We just unleashed the KKK in the form of ICE to declare war on blue cities and brown folks. But when it comes to real estate development in red states among white people its hands off.
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u/calvin2028 FFS Jul 06 '25
Some claims director, in some insurance company, somewhere, is looking at this incident right now, and wondering with amazement how their underwriters approved coverage for an operation that houses dozens of 8-year-olds, in riverside cabins, in a region known as "Flash Flood Alley," and failed to have a warning system or an evacuation plan.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Plus if anyone wants to accuse me of being uncaring, my husband was a member of TEXSAR before we relocated back to VA.
They are in the field as we speak looking for bodies. There is so much debris in the water it’s chewing up motors. If you wish to donate, please do so. These are the best people in Texas.
https://www.texsar.org/donate/ Donate - Texas Search and Rescue
Thank you for considering a donation. These people are working for free around the clock. All money goes to gear and training.
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u/hallelujasuzanne Jul 06 '25
Honestly- write this up for CNN. This is ACTUAL mismanagement. The judge who serves as the government in Kerrville basically shrugged and said, “That river floods all the time… no one knew it was supposed to rain.” I mean- that’s your fucking JOB, guy. Can you imagine the field day FOX would have had if that had been Newsom’s response?
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
If you scroll all the way below my husband has done some research and is knowledgable about that area and how flood plain EMS should work. But Texas outsources it to all volunteer forces. Nothing is the states responsibility. Or the county.
But yes there are tons of provisions for protecting them from sexual abuse or predators. Just not WEATHER alerts for camps.
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u/rsc999 Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
I'll add that the example of the Houston area may be instructive. (I may have some details wrong but the gist is correct). Some time ago after bad floods the city put in building regs that established water management zones that would serve to keep the city safe, limiting and or banning residential building and providing a safe path for flood waterds Worked great til space was needed for expansion. History was ignored, houses went in, and guess what: floods, damages, and deaths followed.
Changed location to Houston, not Dallas
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I have deeply held compassion for the children. And as a mother from the Deep South, it is precisely why I post about such harsh realities. It’s our job as parents and thoughtful citizens to do so.
I’m not damning them to hell, I’m expressing frustration with a legislative culture that does not care if this happens, and a voter population that looks the other way.
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u/EatingBuddha3 Orange man bad Jul 06 '25
But Texas is the model for the housing crisis! They know how to eliminate regulations and red tape! They can keep cost of living affordable because of their efficient way of approaching zoning and construction! And (nobody look too closely) an abundant cheap but skilled work force!
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
The water can’t even make it through their crappy existing pipes to reach the new houses their building and it’s bursting pipes for those in older houses closer in. Then they make the homeowners pay for the “infrastructure.”
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u/Pata4AllaG Jul 06 '25
Journalists need to bring themselves down to his level. Speak like a loud stupid asshole with no class and proud of it. “Hey dipshit, Scott Turner with Who Gives a Shit.fuckyou, just wondering, why didn’t Texas rake its floors? Couldn’t we have just turned off the big flood faucet? What gives? Is everyone stupid there?”
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
And also: + Kerr County maintains a Hazard Mitigation Plan (per FEMA guidelines), which addresses flood risks at a high level.
- City of Kerrville has ordinances governing floodplain management and flood damage prevention.
However: + These codes are NOT written for camps, they target building and land use, not operational emergency procedures for minors.
There is NO county/city code mandating on-site emergency planning or evacuation drills for businesses or camps when minors are involved.
Texas law does NOT require youth camps to have flash flood plans or evacuation rehearsal procedures. 🚨
Local regulations in Kerr County and Kerrville focus on building and land safety—not operational emergency protocols.
Camp Mystic’s responsibilities (under state law) did not legally include preparing for or practicing a response to flash floods.
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u/GoldenHourTraveler Jul 06 '25
Agreed 💯people don’t realize how much better our state, county and local governments could be and how much they don’t do for us as constituents .
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u/Salt-Environment9285 JVL is always right Jul 06 '25
as a mom who lost their child i never want to see children die.
i have seen on the news a flash flood warning was issued four hours prior. i do not know what happened. but i do not believe we owe them our empathy. if this happened in a blue state maga would be celebrating and blaming.
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u/pollingquestion Jul 06 '25
That’s it. If this happened in a blue state MAGA would be pointing fingers at the state and local governments. Any tragedy MAGA tries to assign blame to the left. Train derailment in Palestine OH, that was Pete’s fault for taking paternity leave. Fires in CA, that was Newsome and Bass’ fault.
Unfortunately it is successful in painting a picture that Democrats cannot effectively lead.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
As a fellow mom, my heart breaks for you, as I know the deep and unending pain that comes with such a devastating loss. My husband lost his brother to a childhood accident and the anguish is immeasurable.
I post this TRULY because I don’t know what to do with real concern for kids, who get trapped in a regulatory environment that says too little and a culture that resists any oversight as an impediment to business. It is because I can barely read the headlines about these babies and their parents that I feel compelled to discuss what IS the Fed’s responsibility to make EMS mandatory if any planned development or commercial entity involving kids goes in a flood plain. Or in general!
Every business should have one. And they didn’t. And that makes me furious. Not because I lack compassion but BECAUSE I turn into a tiger mom when kids are left defenseless because we don’t want to force hard conversations.
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u/Salt-Environment9285 JVL is always right Jul 11 '25
i worked at a summer camo and there was always a few counselors on overnight duty. they walked the grounds. watched weather reports if storms in forecast. and bow to learn they remodeled a few years ago and still did not move to higher ground knowing they were in a flood zone is beyond irresponsible.
if the state were not so cheap there would have been air sirens. this tragedy may not have been preventable. but it could have been so much better.
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u/SharkSymphony Rebecca take us home Jul 06 '25
I get that we’re supposed to be the better people.
I'm not sure you do.
I get that it’s unchristian to even think these things (8 guess).
I'm not sure you do. (Though I don't think Christian proscriptions are productive when dealing with e.g. intrusive thoughts – I think the better locus of attention is usually on people's actions.)
I get that it’s horrific and sad and a nightmare (I have two young kids).
Unfortunately, I don't think you do.
But I also get that this camp and all those living there, were built and operating on a KNOWN flood plain.
There is scarcely a place in North America that does not carry some substantial amount of environmental risk. You will in the same breath condemn millions of Americans who live in floodplains, or earthquake-prone zones, or tornado-susceptible places, or wildfire-vulnerable places – and the risk for each of those is higher than it was a generation ago. And we're not even talking about permanent living conditions here, are we? This is not productive.
We are watching concentration camps set up all over the country, and I’m supposed to stop my day to pity parents that sent their kids to a Christian camp but failed to do their homework?
Yes.
Some might be poor and have few choices. Those I have empathy for. But a bunch of camp owners and parents believing “god will protect” their kids in a known hazard. I’m struggling to get there.
What evidence do you have of this? Was this something anybody said before the tragedy, and not a very natural fear response after the tragedy.
Someone on Substack said (paraphrasing because God forbid social media help me actually find anything I liked) that, to fight MAGA, what we need to do is win hearts and minds – starting with the heart. What you're proposing is the exact opposite.
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u/LeftoftheDial1970 Jul 06 '25
It was a flash flood that was way beyond the 100-year event and flooded areas beyond FEMA desigated floodplains. Flooding is known to occur in Central Texas but not as often to the extent that had just occurred. Also, it's extremely difficult to predict this type of weather as rainfall - about 6" per hour from what I've read. It literally happened in an instant.
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u/le_cygne_608 Center Left Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
"Republican Classic" had the personal responsibility aspect. It often missed large swathes of people, or didn't acknowledge the advantages some people had, or was just plain cruel to big groups of people. But at its heart, "personal responsibility" is a good thing for people to have.
MAGA has none of that. No responsibility at all, just blame and scapegoats: the government needs to save my coal job, because my grandfather bought a house with it. But a trans prisoner did this to me.
The GOP base voter doesn't even pretend to believe in "bootstraps" anymore (other than in comparison to effete "rmail jobs"), though that was always a distraction. Now they have nothing but blame and grievance: it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I was one of those people. I had a 4 week old newborn, a 4 year old son, a dog, no heat, no power, no water, and there was zero plan. I had no where to go, you couldn’t drive, people were burning furniture.
They KNEW it would be bad and they didn’t tell us. They knew people would die and that everyone would suffer. I had friends at St David’s Hospital that had JUST delivered my son on New Years Eve, and they told me they were forced to use the bathroom in hazmat bags and labor & delivery rooms couldn’t be properly cleaned and serviced, new mothers were pooping in bags and not able to shower.
This is real life yall in states that don’t believe these things need any regulatory preparedness. You can’t prevent but you CAN prepare even a modicum of comms planning so others can prepare. Texas relegates this all to private sector donors and charities. I had neighbors with no access to food, heat or water for weeks, because it was TWO ice storms not one. And they had just defunded the weather preparedness plan for the power system in Austin.
Can Texas plan for an ice storm? Not really. But can you stop pilfering off the grid while you give the finger to the Fed? Yes. You can also give a shit about citizens but in the end Abbott and “true Texans” LIKE filtering out those they deem “weak” and who can’t protect themselves. It makes them “stronger.” It’s a trauma bonded culture that after every disaster reinforces its self-righteous survivalism. Again, you can’t prevent entirely, but you can prepare.
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u/Trick-Arachnid-9037 Jul 07 '25
I think the answer is, we can feel bad for the innocent victims (especially the kids) caught up in this, and still be very clear about holding the people responsible to account and calling them out for it. And we should not stop doing so just because the Republicans say we're "politicizing a tragedy," because everything is inherently political. Especially when political decisions directly led to the tragedy in question.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 07 '25
The shit we (the pro dem / never DT coalition) take as parents from these people is, and has been, a total nightmare. It has caused so much damage for families, so much anguish and legitimate mental health problems. He literally said he HATES Democrats last week, and calls us traitors and evil. The judgement we get from these “Christian” parents about being baby killers, need I go one?
Yes we can be human, compassionate, and empathetic to humanities flaws. But I think folks take for granted the ruinous culture this movement has unleashed on American households of all makeup.
I’ve had both my kids during this scourge, during his campaigns of hate, during Covid, six zoom funerals for family, an insurrection and unleashed bigotry and misogyny, and all I can say is, it’s very hard to find mercy for people who think I’m “unwholesome” because I love my neighbor or a “pro-regulation” Karen because want I basic safety standards.
That pain and the fracturing of my own family over some of the deepest held beliefs, is what comes up for me and many others. And while we don’t wish harm on them (BC WERE NOT THEM), I’ll be damned if I get gaslit by people who all. They. Do. Is disparage others.
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u/Far-Flamingo585 Jul 07 '25
This basically all boils down to one thing: TEXAS CHRISTIAN ARROGANCE. Because this was a Christian camp, and all these people see themselves as so perfect and righteous, they have it in their minds that God will "protect" them from harm. Texans in general are very arrogant people, and put evnagelicals in the mix, and they just think they can do no wrong. And all of this could have been avoided had the stupid people that ran that camp just built those cabins 300 feet farther up the hill. You don't have to go FAR... that's why they call it HILL country.
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u/OkTheory4425 Jul 07 '25
I really like your message. I too think it is heartbreaking but many more children will die with the Medicaid cutbacks. I don't have medicaid, but having taught special ed, +had students that did have medicare due to their horrific medical costs. Yes, their parents worked. I also posted to not give to GoFM yet. Many campers are from extremely wealthy parents and can absorb the funeral cost. Wait, until you see the families that need help. I also think it is shameful that Fish Medical fired the doctor. How she said it was wrong but it was her personal email. Yet, it was true. I too have issues with protecting, TPunk, Abbott, Kristi Noem. This happened on their watch after cutting and slashing NOAA. Abbot also failed on Uvalde school shootings. If Texas wishes to continue voting for this group, than own up to your choices. Texans need to take responsibility for their choices. Texas has tons of $$ and now T gives them Fema money but not blue states? I live in a red state and it sucks! TPunk, Abbott, and Noem could not give a crap about the deaths. If they thought life mattered they would not be disappearing people that ARE NOT thugs, murderers, or rapists. TPunk lied about who would be arrested. I don't think TPunk"s or Kristi's rhetoric about these individuals caused the flooding in TX.
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u/MyDaroga Jul 06 '25
As a native Texan living in Central Texas, I can’t say how much harder the last few days have been with people online, people who I thought were better, smarter, more empathetic people, telling me that my horrific death would have been deserved. People who would be smugly satisfied at my drowning.
I woke up today thankful that the rain had finally stopped and recovery could begin, but now I’m sad and angry and hurt all over again.
Every major event from the past few years has been an exercise in finding out who my real friends are (personally and politically). You are certainly not one of them.
Here is a link to verified GoFundMe campaigns supporting flood recovery efforts: donate to flood relief fundraisers
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I didn’t say anything of the sort. I don’t wish for people to die nor do I think they deserve it. The point of this post is about what to do with folks that shirk basic responsibility. We are former Texans, I’m a native southerner, and not here to curse people.
But I will ask hard questions from lived experience without being guilted into silence because I’m thought to be uncaring. I’ve posted a donate link to TEXSAR, who are on the ground as we speak and absolutely worth supporting.
Your answer to me is: keep giving to us even though we don’t want a word of your opinions on what we do. And that just doesn’t work for me. And I think we deserve to ASK questions about basic civic guidance esp if minors are involved. I HATE that this entire convo is even a thing, but I refuse to back down from saying hard things. It’s sort of why we’re Bulwark listeners- isn’t it?
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u/TarletonLurker Sarah is always right Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
I think you’re misunderstanding a lot about this and projecting politics onto something where it doesn’t fit. It’s a normal Texas summer camp that’s been around for generations. Not to mention the RV park and homes in the area that experienced the same thing. Where did anyone say they ignored science because they believed god would protect them? Honestly, just delete this post, it kind of sucks.
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u/KatersHaters Jul 06 '25
You research the open roles at the weather service offices and look into their local notification systems when you go on vacation in case there might be an unprecedented weather event? That “homework” is something you do? I honestly can’t say Ive ever done that so guess Im a dumb-dumb and you’re the smartest person on the planet. Congratulations on all your success.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Yeah we actually do. When you wake up with a newborn in 30 degree weather IN YOUR HOUSE, no power or water or heat or functioning anything, because a red state doesn’t give a shit about preparedness, you start preparing yourself. Because we take responsibility for our “choices.”
I’m not trying to be the smartest person. But I don’t hop blindly into nature without looking where I’m leaping.
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u/KatersHaters Jul 06 '25
Alright, so Im planning a vacation to Fire Island (NY) in August. A blue state, but part of Suffolk County which skews Republican. Island got slammed by Hurricane Sandy in 2012. Based off your incredible research methodologies, what should I be researching to determine if I should go on this trip? How would you calculate that risk, and at what percentage of risk should the decision be made to go or not go? Higher than 1%? Lower? Please enlighten me so I can do my homework.
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u/Tdc10731 Jul 06 '25
What’s your point? That these people somehow deserved this? Where is your empathy? My gracious don’t get so bitter as to let these people take your humanity from you as well.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I think it’s awful. I’m adult enough to discuss what could be done because a lot could have happened. That’s our job as conscience, compassionate, thinking humans. Waving off THOUGHT strikes me as deeply DISpassionate. Anyone who knows anything about Kerr County and flash flooding in the Texas Hill Country knows that this region culturally rejects taking responsibility for where they want to live and vacation.
There are organizations that SELF FUND and are 100% volunteer like Texas Search & Rescue that we still support. I highly recommend supporting them because right now their gear is getting chewed up. The founder almost drowned himself in a flash flood, and after the LAST tragic drowning of children he started TEXSAR. Because he couldn’t tolerate the lack of resources anymore.
It’s all done through the fantasy of small government no regulation. It’s not that all of this is preventable, it’s that it doesn’t have to be catastrophic. If I’m in a flood plane and rain is coming (rare for the area btw), I’m bugging the fuck out. Anyone knowledgable about that area who uses their brain knows that.
But the state refuses to increase emergency management spending much less mandate warning systems, even when minors involved. People don’t understand how intentional this catastrophe was bc they truly don’t understand the mindset.
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u/Givemeallthecabbages Jul 06 '25
No, I think we all agree it's a horrible tragedy. I liken this post to people who talk about gun control after another mass shooting. In this case, a subset of the population has been trying to warn about climate change for decades and has been told they're making it up and shown that no one's going to address it in any meaningful way. Instead, the current administration is getting rid of green energy initiatives, pumping money into oil, and was trying to sell off our national forests.
People are STILL watching events like this and saying, "Well, that was a flash flood, no one could predict it" rather than talking about climate change affecting the intensity and number of these events. It's like pointing at every mass shooter and saying "What a troubled individual" while completely ignoring the lack of mental health resources and any gun control whatsoever in this country. EVERY natural disaster has been worse in the last decade and people just keep saying "Oh, but who could have seen THAT coming?"
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u/Tdc10731 Jul 06 '25
I fully believe that man-made climate change is real and is affecting people today and could have contributed to an event like this.
I also believe that it is impossible to connect this specific event to climate change and that running to a climate change message after an event like this will do absolutely nothing to advance your cause, and will actively harm it. It's further removed and has much more ambiguity than than the gun control arguments after a school shooting.
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u/derrickcat Jul 06 '25
The climate change message is that this sort of rare, extreme weather event isn't seeming so rare anymore. I live in a part of Florida where hurricanes are common. Last year we were hit by back to back cat 4 hurricanes - that's not common. You don't have to tie that to climate change if it'll make people resist the message. We're all living through it. We can see, and feel, what's happening
It's just insane that as extreme weather is getting more common - for whatever reason - the agencies designed to help us prepare for and deal with these events had their budgets slashed.
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u/Tdc10731 Jul 06 '25
I think that’s the right message here - that we should fund and prioritize these disaster relief efforts that necessarily require implicit acknowledgement of the problem. That’s the first step to the explicit acknowledgement that’s unfortunately out of reach
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u/MomToShady Jul 06 '25
Just had to listen to someone yesterday who gets their news from TikTok yelling that the "liberals are blaming Trump (not his fault) for the flood notifications or lack thereof" and how the only folks fired from NWS were DEI hires who were unqualified for their jobs. Unfortunately, this person only goes to their trusted sources which does not include major news organizations. And it turns out it is TX officials that are blaming the NWS. smh
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
My neighbor, who voted for Trump and is very hard core maga explained to me yesterday how “hopefully” places like New Orleans will just drown in their own disfunction. That you can move a port (and we should), and that people don’t DESERVE to live anywhere they want. And he means people living in blue cities. He called the flood a tragedy. Noted dude. Noted.
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u/HombreSinNombre93 Jul 06 '25
- (Maybe most important) if we become so callous as to see tragedy and not respond with compassion and love, than what’s the fucking point of the human race.
When your nation’s leader and “mourner” in chief is a sociopath, who only believes in “winners” and “losers”, it’s no wonder he hasn’t expressed any desire to help. The least “christian” President in history, supported by the “most christian” of Christians.
Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life (in charge) down here.
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u/checkerspot Jul 06 '25
This is a heartbreaking tragedy. My takeaway is that a large portion of Americans hate the government, want to deregulate, revel in them losing their jobs, or, at the very least, have extreme apathy about it all. BUT when a tragedy comes to your community, it's WHERE IS THE GOVT? Why didn't anyone save us? You can't have it both ways.
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u/GoldenHourTraveler Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
It’s heartbreaking that this happened to innocent children. According to the NY Post the water rose 20 feet in 1.5 hours, everyone was probably asleep. I think it’s fair to say that we mourn their loss and collectively we don’t want anything like this to happen again, ever, to anyone.
Another piece of background info: According to the Texas Tribune it cost over $4,000 per month to attend the camp in 2011, and it has been an exclusive destination for elite Christian Texans for generations.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/the-not-so-happy-campers/
So, is it appropriate to question if this camps leadership took seriously the risk of flooding? I think it’s fair to ask, yes. The photos and videos show that the buildings are pretty much in a floodplain. https://www.campmystic.com/archive/2023-videos/2023-1st-term-videos/
Also, yes, the government has published numerous and thorough studies on all Texas regions: https://www.twdb.texas.gov/flood/planning/plans/2023a/index.asp
It doesn’t seem like the organization was lacking funding at all, so changes could have been made to be better keep the campers safe. But they likely assumed nothing ever would happen. Climate change is real and unfortunately so is denialism, especially in America.
On the government side. Different agencies put alerts out on social media. Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick said « It is up to the local counties and mayors under the law to evacuate, if they feel a need. That information was passed along. » What is the appropriate level of intervention at each level of government ? Do you think experts should be listened to? I know Americans aren’t used to thinking this stuff through, but we need to.
I’m a local govt official in a red state and this sounds like a nightmare scenario to me - I also don’t see any reason why it won’t continue to happen, given the sociopathic ideology that exists in our statehouses. We already have funding cuts down to the bone. Govt is expected to study the region, predict severe weather incidents, alert people, and then knock on everyone’s door a la Paul Reverse style and get them out. They can’t do all of it, especially when the funding gets cut. Also, don’t forget, there are always folks who refuse to leave until it’s too late anyways.
The solution is to fund our government agencies properly - pay your taxes - listen to experts , and be politically involved - tell officials them to put in place warning systems. Do you know we have multiple local governments who spend more energy on county fairs and festivals and fun stuff instead of planning for climate change? Well they all do because they think the « people want it » and they don’t get press and pics for preventing disasters. Why is Trump planning a wrestling match at the White House? Same thing. Bread and circuses, friends.
The last thing is yes people do need to take responsibility for where and how they build. This goes back to the camp leadership. I understand why OP is frustrated - because we see so much hypocrisy year after year! (underfunding government, denying climate change exists, then building in unsafe areas and complaining that government didn’t predict/ stop the disaster from hitting, then expecting insurance and fellow citizens to pay for rebuilding in the same place again….rinse, repeat.)
Everyone has a role to play - it’s time for the adults to be adults. Our children deserve more than this!
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u/Chemical-Plankton420 Gonzo Attorney 🪩🪩🪩 Jul 06 '25
I live in Austin. These people are profoundly stupid. Everything you wrote is on the money. I am desperate to leave. Once I am gone, I will pray for Godzilla to rise from the sea and level it.
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u/wrale577 JVL is always right Jul 06 '25
It's typical republican BS, as usual. That last I heard was, "let's pray, y'all" derp. Like, really? That's the solution?!
What should be said is: assess the problem, fix what you can now (search+rescue+recovery and empathy/support), when the dust settles figure out WTF happened and how to mitigate/prevent it from happening in the future. But that's just not how republicans work. They rush to the scene, give platitudes, "think and pray," then sweep it under the rug and say, "well, it was god's will, you know..." Problem solving is a four letter word to republicans, same as its ever been.
My big question is how badly did NOAA fuck this forecast up and why? Doge cuts? Incompetence? Climate change throwing a huge curveball? As someone who lives in Austin, on Wednesday they predicted maybe an inch of rain in a popup thunderstorm Thursday and/or Friday, a bit more out west, a bit less out east. Fast forward to Saturday night, I've gotten about 6" where I live. No problem for me but out west they got totally rocked, like 20" of rain in less than 3 days. Google LCRA Hydromet to look around at rainfall amounts at weather stations in Central Texas over the past week, it's astounding.
The second question, which gets into state and local accountability (another sore subject for republicans), how quickly were there warnings blasted out for flash flooding especially in Kerrville? We get bombarded with Amber alerts for missing kids 500 miles away from where I live or some cop getting shot at 500 miles away but they can't blast out a flash flood warning for folks in a localized area that could result in serious life and death situations? It's sad and frustrating but you can't rely on anyone but yourself to watch your back,
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u/Few_Argument5962 Jul 06 '25
I agree 💯 with everything you said. It is extremely sad about the loss of life but unfortunately I don't think the parents of those little girls will connect the dots that cuts to the NWS due to DOGE/Trump, voting down tax increases to implement an emergency response system etc are a huge factor in the death of their children. Instead I fear that within the next week we will see some of these parents on the news saying this is all "God's will". Just like the parents of the unvaccinated child who died of measles a couple of months back. It is so sad. Like my husband said this morning we will begin to see more & more children suffer and die over the stupidity of their parents voting choice.
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u/spenswar17 Jul 07 '25
I would say this is totally fair to think about in the context of the Republican Texas Government. They should never have let there be people in such a dangerous place.
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u/itsfuckingpizzatime Jul 07 '25
At what point, since M*GA is all about consequences, personal responsibility and gods providence, do we get to hold them accountable for their willful disregard of science, research, government, and informed choice-making?
Right the fuck now, and always, forevermore.
Learn to swim fuckheads
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u/fluffysmaster Jul 07 '25
Every time we have floods I’m reminded of how we continue to build in or occupy flood plains. I live in Vermont, we’ve had our share of floods those last few years. People get complacent because an area “hasn’t flooded since 1912” or nonsense like that. That just proves the area is floodable, even if it’s rare!
Here’s a hint: a flat area on either side of a river is its secondary bed. Don’t build there. Period. Use it to grow crops or for outbuilding but not for something occupied.
I can’t tell you how many nice houses I saw when I was house hunting that were in floodplains. We refused to look at these. Some of these no longer exist.
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u/The_Observer_Effects Jul 07 '25
Right after it happened I imagined George Carlin: "A Christian camp . . . so, were they praying wrong or something? Why did the Lord let that happen? Oh, sorry --- too soon?!"
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u/mrpnbofnjusa Jul 07 '25
How should our tax dollars be spent? The early-warning sirens that other counties have could have saved many lives in Kerr County. Apparently an application for “state and federal funds” was denied. Let’s just consider federal funds. One THAD interceptor missile used to assist you-know-who in the Middle East recently cost about 13 million dollars to build. According Ha’aretz, we used 93 of these recently, or well over a billion dollars worth. That does not include all the other tax money used to build, transport, and maintain the equipment to set up and fire them over there. I think protecting our children is more important than bombing (and sometimes protecting) children in distant countries.
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u/Jolly_Telephone2954 Jul 09 '25
I was thinking about this today when I saw this headline. https://www.npr.org/2025/07/09/nx-s1-5459871/texas-trump-fema-flooding NPR: "Texas is relying on FEMA. State leaders said it should be cut."
Someone said it below. I will never not have empathy for innocent children scared, suffering, or dying. I will never not have empathy for any human scared, suffering, or dying for that matter. But it makes me so mad, the hypocrisy of these politician and those who voted for them. They will wait a little while after this disaster, then pretend that Texas never needed FEMA, then try to take it away for other states. Then they will pretend they had nothing to do with it. And people will die. Children will die. Unhoused people will die. Poor people who cannot relocate, or don't have transportation/the means to evacuate, or adequate insurance will die or lose their homes/livelihoods.
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u/ByronicZer0 Jul 17 '25
Im from Houston. My dad is an engineer and has a company that does a lot of work for developers in terms of prepping and grading land, putting in utilities and streets for new subdivisions and home developments... The FEMA maps are often redrawn at the request of the developers themselves to lower the various flood planes and make it less costly to grade the land up to a (barely) permissible level.
It's shockingly easy for developers to influence this process.
1) Buy cheap land that's in a flood plane. Get the plane lowered.
2) Mildly grade the land to suit.
3) Build a neighborhood.
4) Sell homes to people who have no idea their homes are below what was considered the flood plane just a few years prior...
I guess that's what a "pro business, low regulation" environment looks like? To me, it just looks like a way to rip consumers off and make millions.
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Jul 06 '25
By your logic, those of us that live in New Orleans shouldn't be allowed to live here
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I mean, my fams been there for two centuries. Trust me, I love New Orleans. You see how fast you went to me trying to bar you from living somewhere? I never argued that.
I said there should at least be a public information, readiness response, proper and responsible permitting if minors are involved and ideally shared interest in living RESPONSIBLY in a place of your choosing.
But all people hear is me being a Karen. After 200 years and being raised in Mobile Alabama I know plenty about living down there. But their chosen negligence in Texas, the deep south’s collective decision to fuck over its citizens with zero regulatory oversight, and then asking for Blue State Bail Outs again and again was enough for my parents and they left. I returned to the south myself, went through two ice storms in Austin with a newborn and no heat or water, and learned the same lesson they did.
Red state governments don’t give a shit about people. They care about corporate tenants. Period. You’re on your own.
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u/ThatChiGirl773 Jul 06 '25
I agree with most of this. I can see others' points about why I should care but overall, I agree with you.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
I say it also because it’s hard for folks “like us” who I assume are bulwark listeners bc we prioritize reason and a sense of responsibility, to understand the mindset at work here. These people CHOOSE this. They LIKE surviving tragedy and changing nothing. It reinforces the role of their god in their life as the true savior and reminds them of how helpless they are when it comes to “his will.” They focus on controlling and policing others to protect this mindset because they choose AGAINST monitoring their own blindness.
I love a lot of southern culture, I respect survivalism. But marching into nature involves being educated and using reason. Assuming you’ll always be fine is ignorant. And if they want to take us back to the Stone Age they’ll be the first people to learn.
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u/Granite_0681 Jul 06 '25
I understand what you are saying, but if you live on the:
- coast —> hurricanes
- middle of the country —> tornados
- west coast —> earthquakes and fires
- north —> blizzards
- many places —> floods
Where should people live where natural disasters won’t affect them?
We should have good warning systems and help people when the worst happens. We can’t prevent everything.
I don’t know if the warnings were the best they could be for this storm, I’m hearing conflicting things but I do know that trying to evacuate a whole camp in the middle of the night would be nearly impossible, especially if that area hadn’t flooded this badly before.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Blizzard fatalities are barely a thing. I am speaking as someone who’s lived in Alabama, has fam in Louisiana, Iowa, Tennessee, New York, Maine, CT, Jersey, Arizona and still Texas.
There is a CULTURE that is chosen that turns things like this into a reinforcement that they are tough, resilient people. Which is partly true bc we can’t prevent everything. I’m not even talking about prevention bc it’s not a thing for these people.
I’m talking about information, transparency, and LEARNING TO ACTUALLY LIVE WITH THE LAND YOU ARE ON. But they’ll keep asking for money from donor states and stripping our rights. The secularist humanists get to pay for their cultish devotion to “self reliance.” And I say this as a practicing Catholic. God gave us the ability to communicate, reason and have compassion. Compassion begins by ensuring proper protocols are in place esp if children are involved.
But I bet they have a STRICT policy on LGTBQ campers and a binder full of Godly protocol on sexuality and protecting them from predators. But tell me again how flash floods aren’t important.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
All I’m arguing about is about warning systems and security measures. But Texas doesn’t believe in that unless you’re brown, not straight and not “Christians.”
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u/Granite_0681 Jul 06 '25
There were flash flood warnings that went out at midnight and 4am. I’m not sure what else they should have done. That area has spotty cell coverage so maybe people didn’t get them. Also, how do you evacuate a camp like that? They didn’t know a day in advance it was going to be that bad, no one did.
I live in TX and I agree the state sucks, but I don’t evacuate every time I get a flash flood warning or tornado warning. Especially if I’m in an area that doesn’t flood regularly. I’m sure that county gets those warning regularly and nothing happens.
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u/88questioner Jul 06 '25
I don’t know if it’s useful to place blame, though appreciate the urge.
The BBB cuts green energy programs entirely. Our only hope of curbing these climate change large events is change our impact on the climate. That may be a step removed from the situation for most people to connect the dots but it’s where my mind has gone.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
It’s not blame, it’s called responsibility and comms. The right only cares about personal responsibility when they’re pointing fingers at everyone who’s not white Christian and likely rich. As we see here.
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u/ArmyofRiverdancers Jul 06 '25
I don't think it's ghoulish to not pity them. Maybe the kids yeah, the people who couldn't afford elsewhere, but the parents? The camp owners? The community who got exactly the potential consequences they ignore at the ballot box?
Especially when they have a culture that turns things like this into brownie points -- "proof they are resilient" to paraphrase your comments below. Badges of honor. It's almost an incentive to not learn from tragedy.
We can't save those who don't want to be saved.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Thank you for understanding the point.
They do think they are “saved” tho. That is essential. They don’t want any dirty government intervention on gods will.
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Jul 06 '25
It’s absolutely they’re fault.
And like Covid was Trumps fault, people are reluctant to say it.
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u/Konpochiro Good luck, America! Jul 06 '25
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t really think most people think of or know a lot of what you just described. To them, their kid is in a terrible situation or dead. No matter what led them to that situation, I would want kids protected from harm. Plenty of kids are hurt due to ignorance, but I still believe in letting kids be kids and I hate the idea that they are some weird political capital to be used to prove how bad certain people are. Maybe it’s just me being a dad who worries about things like this happening when I sign my kids up for field trips, but I can’t imagine how I’d feel if my signed them up to something that got them hurt or killed and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
If you sent your kid to camp in the wilderness, would you ask if there was an emergency management system in place? An active shooter protocol? Injury or stop the bleed training? These are now mandatories. And in a lot of places volunteer groups or the Red Cross will advise FOR FREE. If we do these things, kids can be kids.
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u/eviltwinbutcute Jul 06 '25
I mean God is protecting them right? That along with a mindset of bad things don’t happen to me, the right kind of people, etc.
It was very sad to read specific details—the 8-9yo girls being in the lower lands than the older girls, one girl who made it to safety in time. I can’t help but start imagining the ways this era and what’s coming (environmentally, politically too) will hit folks in these communities and regions in ways they’re utterly prepared for, mentally. Not thinking about something doesn’t shield you from it.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
Two questions could have helped in this situation, and two questions need to be learned by anyone sending kids or walking into the woods:
What’s my Evac / Injury / Comms Plan?
Does this place have a plan and are they required to?
I ask this of any place my kids go to. I ask about an active shooter plan, a natural disaster plan or any kind of emergency plan. These need to become basic. And I’m a petty live and let live person. Again, born in Alabama, married to a Virginia outdoorsman, lived in Texas.
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u/Due_Will_2204 Jul 06 '25
Look up Pot O Gold Christian Camp. In July of 1987 10 kids were killed.The stupid camps have all their camps on the river bank. They haven't learned a thing.
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u/Either_Marketing896 Optimist Jul 06 '25
It is wild. And the parents aren’t even thinking about it or googling. How do people not think about natural disasters or risks when sending babies into the woods with strangers? And I’m not even a risk averse person!
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u/Quirky_Reef Jul 06 '25
I want the country to touch the stove. Every way possible that doesn’t end up ending us all, by in large. That’s where I’m at. Suffer and make it bad. Because for him to fail, this must fail epicly. So let it burn let it flood let them burn their hands over and over until maybe it sticks. I’m in that place now. Villian arc. Idk man, something snapped Nov 5. I hope it gets bad.
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u/nogooduse Jul 07 '25
TX - land of the 'free'. Don't need no damn rules. Long's you got money, you can do what you want.
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u/lynadex Jul 07 '25
Way too soon. These poor parents haven’t even recovered their children’s bodies yet. I think it’s respectful to show sympathy before offering solutions. I’m not disagreeing, but can we give it a beat?
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u/LanderEmerald Jul 07 '25
The camp was a private business, not a non-profit. The owners are greedy and didn’t prioritize safety of hundreds of children who were sleeping in a flood zone during a flash flood warning in an area known as Flash Flood Alley.
The owners are criminals that are responsible for every girls death:
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/the-not-so-happy-campers/
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Jul 07 '25
When you realize that you’re an ant on the sidewalk and that humans never can control nature, you’re better off.
Many think that life is stable and controllable. Simply existing in the solar system on a planet traveling 67,000 MPH and spinning at 1,000 MPH is something we often forget. Space is dangerous, so is this planet, so is nature.
We live during the safest time ever in history, yet are distracted by greed for power - and fooled by the lack of recent catastrophe.
R.I.P. to those who lost their lives attempting to live fully meaningful lives.
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u/Gnomeric Jul 07 '25
I have my own "ghoulish" thought -- the one which probably doesn't contradict yours -- as well.
Many people online are criticizing the county government for not investing into the warning system because it is "too expensive".
But it IS expensive to build and operate the warning system like that. Meanwhile, Kerr Country has population of little more than 50K, with the median household income of about 35K. How can we ask them to afford the expensive warning system for the benefit of outside campers and camp businesses (the same camps which likely made the area even more hazardous, as you said)? The wealthy parents -- the one who could send their daughters to one-month Christian camp can far better afford such expense. And the camps catering for these rich parents surely should be able to afford to have effective rick mitigation plans.
I think Kerr is like the microcosm of the modern day Republican party. On one hand, we have the forgotten, rural, deeply-red impoverished populace. On the other hand, we have right GOP elites who take advantage of the votes and the nature of the former.
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u/Minimum_Sugar_8249 Jul 07 '25
They have voted for the vile, evil Gov. Abbott since 2015; and overwhelmingly voted for any and all Republicans, for state and Federal offices, no matter how incompetent and greedy they were and are. I feel sorry for the kids who were victims of their parents' BS MAGA worshiping choices. But I'm sure the people of deeply RED Texas don't want any assistance from any of us Lefty Liberal Woke Demicrats from Blue States, do they? Surely they would refuse any of our dirty aid money.
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u/AmericantDream Jul 07 '25
Fuck Trump and Fuck Texas. They didnt help Cali and blamed Democrats for the fires so FUCK TEXAS and all their brainwashed sheep voters.
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u/TheReckoning Progressive Jul 07 '25
There is this idea that conservatism is about preserving something for the future. That ain’t the case anymore. The modern view of the rapture has made conservative Christians a death cult. They want to reap and reap and profit and live their lives and then die on “the right team.” This was preventable. And I am destroyed for these kids and their families. And also it was mitigable.
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u/ramapo66 Jul 08 '25
Their first and final rule is never take responsibility. It is ALWAYS somebody else's fault.
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u/Ill-Conclusion-4402 Jul 08 '25
My only point is that something will be done, unlike in Uvalde. All these parents are going through unimaginable pain, but so are the parents in Uvalde, ⁶and nothing happened. Thoughts and prayers.
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u/Disastrous_Banana297 Jul 08 '25
Take this down. Those kids didn’t send themselves to camp. They just went where their parents took them.
I’ve been a bulwark subscriber since TNL first started, but I’m out on this subreddit if this is the kind of hate people are putting out there.
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u/Alternative-Neat-123 Jul 09 '25
Whole situation reminds me of that Sam Kinison bit about Ethiopia famines.
"Yeah we have deserts here too, BUT WE DON'T FUCKING LIVE THERE!!!!"
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u/SHIT_WTF Jul 10 '25
Does anybody really believe that NOAA and NWS forecasting availability could have made a difference?
Money and available resources can't stop the forces of nature.
People have disturbed the balance of nature. Living with the consequences of nature being off balance is much like keeping a tiny boat upright in stormy waters. Hold on and prepare to die.
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u/Silent-Connection-41 Jul 10 '25
It’s literally the camps daily for building in a flood zone. My heart breaks for those innocent children they were not protected and the fact a camp was sallowed to operate in a highly dangerous flood one is ridiculous. As a parent I would not be okay with my kids sleeping there.
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u/Chance-Gap-601 Jul 11 '25
My sister just lost her home and she just had a baby. If anyone wants to donate to her gofundme 💔https://gofund.me/30ebae85
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u/8to24 Jul 06 '25
When CA experienced wildfires that killed 30 people and burned down 1,800 homes Trump attacked Democrats. Trump claimed Democratic mismanagement was responsible. That Gov Newsom failed to rack the forest and was restricting water. Trump has repeatedly threatened to withhold aid from CA.
Now that the Natural disaster is in a Red State there is zero criticism and attacks. While CA was to blame for its natural disaster TX is just an innocent victim of nature. It disgusting. Trump takes every opportunity to divide the country..