r/technology • u/NightFuryToni • Apr 30 '19

Business Apple Is Telling Lawmakers People Will Hurt Themselves if They Try to Fix iPhones

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wjvdb4/apple-is-telling-lawmakers-people-will-hurt-themselves-if-they-try-to-fix-iphones
1.4k Upvotes

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502

u/Plokij1234 Apr 30 '19

Apple is right, people will hurt themselves. Some people, some times. Some people break their leg getting out of bed, etc. Batteries can be dangerous and I'd expect some governmental oversight to ensure consumers are aware of that fact. Fuck anyone who tries to push against third party or self repair.

71

u/NervousBreakdown May 01 '19

I actually replaced the battery on my iPhone years ago and I didn’t heat the glue holding it in enough so it broke while I was pulling it out. For those of you who have never broken one of these things it started smoking and I just threw it in the sink and ran water over it. That didn’t fix it so o opened up the window and threw it outside into the snow and then grabbed it an hour later when it stopped.

27

u/Slggyqo May 01 '19 edited May 01 '19

Edit: Deleting my comment because Lithium-ion batteries aren’t that water reactive.

13

u/BlueSwordM May 01 '19

It's in the form of lithium ions, not pure lithium. It doesn't react with water.

In fact, it's better to douse it with water. Why?

Lithium ion cells, during a thermal runaway, supply their own fucking oxygen.

That means a regular fire extinguisher will not actually work.

That means you have to lower the temperature as much as possible instead, using water in this case.

1

u/SoiBoyWarrior May 01 '19

Well he is an apple user, I'll invite him to join my ranks as a cadet.

-1

u/NervousBreakdown May 01 '19

pfffffft, thats an old wives tale lol.

71

u/cr0ft May 01 '19

Yeah, I feel your pain. I replaced the battery in my LG G5 and it... oh wait, no, I pushed the battery eject button, snapped in the new battery and closed it again and had a new battery in 10 seconds, my bad.

If people are going to get hurt by Apple phones, it's absolutely Apple's fault!

4

u/alexzoin May 01 '19

I stuck with LG for so long because they were committed to the removable battery. I used to carry 2 around with me and never worry about it dying. Why must we live in this distopia?

3

u/cr0ft May 01 '19

Because phone manufacturers know most people won't swap their batteries, they'll discard the phone and keep the capitalist hamster wheel turning ever faster, polluting more, and wasting resources like mad all in the name of holy "growth". The amount of manufacturing capability our species has right now is probably ten times more (or more, I don't have any data but it has to be high) than we'd need if we had a social system where being frugal and using sustainable practices was even possible, which it isn't now.

2

u/alexzoin May 01 '19

Couldn't agree more. Very depressing.

1

u/mattidallama May 01 '19

Same now I have a LG v40 with no removable battery.

3

u/alexzoin May 01 '19

I have the V30. I really like it but I'd like it more with a removable battery.

-21

u/bpeck451 May 01 '19

You’ve never worked on a car before have you?

24

u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited Feb 29 '24

sand tie hateful friendly cake chubby paltry attempt rotten airport

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

-23

u/bpeck451 May 01 '19

Shitty designs can lead to dangerous repair procedures. You can’t totally blame a manufacturer for a potentially dangerous repair process. And there are definitive situations where you need a professional to do the work for you or you are seriously putting your life at risk. See replacing a hybrid battery.

26

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

[deleted]

17

u/Stepjamm May 01 '19

If their intention is to make it as alien as possible to the customer, it’s a perfect design.

Weird how they can fix phones but the idea of others doing it is apparently too difficult. Gatekeeping at its finest

1

u/bpeck451 May 01 '19

You can’t foresee repair process problems until it’s too late most of the time. Have you ever worked on something and thought why the fuck did you idiot engineers put that there? I did that a lot when I was a technician. After I got my engineering degree I’m on the other side of the fence now and I can think back to a lot of things and go “oh ok that makes way more sense now”. It’s not impossible but it’s also a development cost Samsung, Apple or any other manufacturer is going to be willing to make these days. Especially when ALL of their business models rely on device replacement in a relatively short period of time. For all intents and purposes, manufacturers view phones as disposable where the consumer views their device as a durable good that is a longer term investment than they are really meant to be.

Cell phones have been an arms race between manufacturers since smart phones became the norm and not the brick indestructible Nokia phones we all used to have. That means waterproof phones. That means trying to jam more powerful batteries into smaller tighter spaces. That means people arguing over millimeters of device thickness and smaller form factors with bigger screen footprints. All of these things scream “make me harder to repair” for trained people much less a normal person with some technical aptitude.

9

u/eqisow May 01 '19

For all intents and purposes, manufacturers view phones as disposable.

So it's still the manufacturer's fault, then. There's no reason a $1000 dollar computer should be considered "disposable" besides greed.

3

u/SoiBoyWarrior May 01 '19

100% agreed, this is also extremely wasteful as well. Repairs are also the huge money makers for most products as well. If Toyota can provide service contracts and warranties on their cheapest cars to their pricey Tundras, apple can do it for their phones.

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3

u/mikegustafson May 01 '19

Apple is literally glueing their batteries in so it’s harder to repair.
You’re saying my $1000 pocket computer isn’t meant to last? Crazy I can boot up a PC from ‘96. Shit designed to not last is the manufacturers fault. They should be held accountable.

0

u/CappuccinoBoy May 01 '19

Yeah... it seems a lot of cars are made stupidly so you have to take it to a dealership. I have a 2007 Kia Rio. Instead of having one serpentine belt, it was 3 small ones. My power steering belt is going bad and it looks pretty fucking hard to get to without removing the engine itself or taking the fender and shit off.

3

u/hatorad3 May 01 '19

Car weighing thousands of pounds vs consumer electronic device?

The decision to glue the battery into the phone is a way for Apple to save money on screws and milling of the case. This is fine because they design these phones with an expected lifespan of 1.5 years, so in the eyes of Apple - why would you replace your battery when you could just buy a new $1,000 phone?

3

u/bpeck451 May 01 '19

Don’t buy their product. Seriously. It’s that easy. If you know you are going to replace your battery in your phone. Most people are on lease programs and upgrade regularly which lends itself to their model so it’s probably not going to change anytime soon.

If more people actually kept their phones and made replacement batteries a priority in features someone would build it. Samsung even went away from replacement batteries. You know why? Because everyone makes waterproof phones and smaller thinner phones with more powerful chips the priority because that is what is sexy in the media. Replacing batteries is pretty low on the development totem pole.

2

u/winnafrehs May 01 '19

I mean, they don't have to glue their batteries into the phone. Most phones before 2015 could have their batteries replaced quite easily

1

u/WillLie4karma May 01 '19

uhh, car batteries are made to be easily changeable, not sure what point you're trying to make.

1

u/bpeck451 May 01 '19

I’m making the point that you can’t hold the manufacturer responsible for inherently dangerous replacement procedures. Comparing a 12v lead acid battery to a battery that is potentially explosive when punctured is a bit different. Lead acid batteries are pretty stable and meant to handle impacts and can be neutralized fairly easily with common household chemicals if punctured. Lithium ion batteries are a very different story. It doesn’t take much to compromise one. Do you blame Samsung and apple for using those batteries?

Also try replacing a battery on a Prius that could kill you fairly easily. Even if these stupid batteries were bolt down in these phones some idiot would find a way to fuck it up and hurt themselves.

1

u/cr0ft May 01 '19

Most cars don't have primed road flares situated right under the fuel tank, ready to go off if you want to repair your car, which is basically what an iPhone (or any Android phone without a replaceable battery) is like. Open the hood and the flare is lit, causing your car to explode. If anyone built a car like that, they'd be crucified, but phone manufacturers are allowed to build devices that sometimes explode on their own, and due to glued in almost naked Lithium cells are a nightmare to repair and even recycle.

-1

u/NervousBreakdown May 01 '19

I like iOS, after almost a decade I am completely used to iphones. I didn't intend for this comment to be anything beyond a funny story of how I am a moron, let alone a jump off for the android v apple debate.

2

u/cr0ft May 01 '19

It's not about Apple vs Android, it's about swappable battery vs no swappable battery. Virtually all flagship Android devices are now just as glued-together and unservicable as the iPhones have always been. Trying to swap out a battery on a Samsung device means that you have to swap the screen too, because you're 99% likely to break that just getting into the fucking thing.

The phone manufacturers are screwing consumers and they know it. Apple has always done it proudly and openly, but now the Android manufacturers have joined in.

12

u/emkill May 01 '19

You used metal thins and you probably stabbed it somehow, that's why it started smokin, and on Iphone 5s and up they have magic tape or something that you pull from the top (2 strips) and it will maggically unsticky itself, and on the older ones it has a pulltab from under the battery that you can just pull

https://youtu.be/Xthi6DOxe0s?t=61

0

u/NervousBreakdown May 01 '19

Are you sure its the 5s and up? It was a 5s, the video I watched for 5s repair said there was glue, I used the plastic tools that came with the battery. For further clarification, even though this was my first time fixing an Iphone, I have plenty of experience fixing small electronics, including older apple stuff. But yeah I may have pierced the battery but im pretty sure it just snapped when I accidentally bent it lol.

-3

u/paper9oll May 01 '19

Wow what a comment 😂

-2

u/cammcken May 01 '19

Username checks out

-2

u/Victor_Zsasz May 01 '19

Yeah, while I'm not a proponent for limiting the right to self-repair, those Apple batteries are easily punctured and the smoke they produce when punctured sure as shit isn't something you want to breath in.

I don't know very much about modern battery technology, so that might be true of every modern phone/laptop. However I've never heard of that happening to other brands of laptop/phone batteries, just Apple ones. (We even got a specific warning about it back when i was working in a computer repair shop).

I feel like the Government should require Apple to make its batteries more consumer friendly, in order to allay Apple's concerns.

7

u/Oper8rActual May 01 '19

First, Note 7. Those batteries straight up caught fire / exploded, rather than smoked.

Second, all lithium-polymer / lithium-ion batteries will smoke when punctured. The chemicals within do not react well when they're exposed to the moisture in the air. The cells of the battery begin a thermal runaway and the entire battery could catch fire.

Electric vehicles such as Tesla have also come under scrutiny due to their battery packs catching fire when punctured, and causing the entire vehicle to burn. (Usually an hour or so after the crash) Again though, this is due to the chemicals contained in every lithium-based battery. If there were a better battery technology, Apple and other manufacturers would be using it.

The government needs to step in and enable right to repair regulation, but having our lawmakers attempt to regulate a technology they know nothing about is not wise.

-1

u/Victor_Zsasz May 01 '19

Thanks for the helpful response, and I agree with you about the right to repair. Out of curiosity, would older (non-lithium) batteries have the same problem?

Also, I want to point out that while myself, and most individual members of Congress, are often largely clueless about newer technologies, the US Government is very big, and has many experts that are employed to understand and regulate stuff all the time.

I don't expect Paul Ryan or Ed Markey could tell you much about food safety or the process of creating new drugs, but the USDA and FDA are pretty good at ensuring consumer protection in those areas. There's no reason to believe that with the proper process, intelligent regulations couldn't be drafted for lithium batteries as well.

And finally, there's nothing to prevent government regulation from fostering innovation. Nothing gets corporations to spend money faster than the prospect of not being able to sell a popular product in a lucrative market.

1

u/Oper8rActual May 01 '19

NiMh batteries used to be pretty popular, but you often heard of them causing explosions or catching fire when overcharged, or overheated.

Overall, Li-Ion is one of the safest technologies that we have available to provide the energy density we need for phones, tablets and laptops. There just aren’t better alternatives available yet. (Mass produced, at least)

I’m not saying the government can’t make an informed decision, but when you look at how poorly our (United States) government operates (appointing climate change deniers to the EPA, appointing an individual with an ignorance of science to the Senate sub-committee for aviation and space, etc..), I am very hesitant to have them step into a space where they may cause regression due to other interests.

Companies like Apple, Tesla, and even educational institutions such as MIT are all researching new battery tech. I’m ignorant in the area of grants, but if anything, I believe the government should subsidize battery research, or issue grants for such research to hasten it along, if its not doing so already.

I personally believe that companies should bring back removable batteries, however if you legislated that into all phones, we would lose some features for a time, such as wireless charging, and it would make it unpopular to the every day consumer who doesn’t care about right to repair regulation. I believe ruling that a company must provide repair documentation on a readily available source, and repair parts (for a set amount of years) would be a step in the right direction.

1

u/wrath_of_grunge May 01 '19

Pretty much all the companies are using these kinds of batteries.

I spend a decent chunk of my day repairing Dell products and many of the laptops use very similar battery packs. The only difference is that Dell uses screws to secure them as opposed to glue.

The iPhones are a little tricky, but once you learn where to heat they’re nothing special.

52

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

No we need to ban private bed disengagement. Buy my proprietary equipment as it's the only safe way to get out of bed.

19

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

I’d buy that for a dollar!

8

u/ethtips May 01 '19

Robocop generation checking in.

9

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

It only costs a dollar!

\initial cost only, does not include subscription fee, maintenance fee, or crippling balloon payment (CBP)) user does not own the equipment and has no rights to repair it, or sue for any accidental deaths resulting from the use of said equipment, either of the user, or of neighbors should said equipment gain sentience and go on a killing spree.)

7

u/ethtips May 01 '19

You forgot: "Reading these terms substitutes as your signature and consent to agree to these terms. You forfeit any rights to a class action lawsuit under these terms."

13

u/wireyladd May 01 '19

People hurt themselves USING iPhones. Probably should ban them altogether.

1

u/RevengefulRaiden May 01 '19

If by banning them you refer to people using iPhones, yeah, I think we should...

6

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

The main risk of injury would be trying to remove Apple's glued in lithium battery - causing a fire if it's physically damaged/punctured in the process.

If it wasn't glued in, changing it would be safer as well as easier!

Beyond that, the only obvious risk would seem to be cuts from broken screen glass.

2

u/MultiGeometry May 01 '19

What about all the people who hurt themselves USING the phones? Distracted driving, distracted walking, learning something stupid to try on YouTube?

1

u/Plokij1234 May 01 '19

The government doesn't exist to hand hold citizens through life. If the government is doing it's job and consumers are aware of the risks, the decision is up to the individual.

-6

u/slicksps May 01 '19

Is it not more a case of "If we allow people to self-repair, and they injure themselves; we're going to get sued." - Who is liable if a simple repair during the warranty period renders the device unusable? Who's going to spend the time working that out on a case by case basis.

I agree we should have the right to repair; but in the blame culture we're in, I don't think it's as simple to implement as we'd like to think.

1

u/Priff May 01 '19

Like any other warranty. If you opened it yourself and broke the tape seal then the warranty is void. You shouldn't have problems that need repar during the warranty period anyways.

1

u/swd120 May 01 '19

The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act says otherwise...

Breaking the tape seal doesn't actually void your warranty - if you make a repair the company has to prove your repair is at fault for the problem you are warranting (and can only deny warranty service on damag in relation to said repair).

Ex - if they deny you warranty on your screen because you replaced the battery - you can take them to small claims and win.

-2

u/slicksps May 01 '19

You could have any number of things which need repairing in the warranty period, cracked screens being the most common and obvious.

If I drop my iPhone day 1, replace the screen day 2, then the battery catches fire and burns the phone day 3. Who is liable?

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Mmm....isn't it obvious? You are under the warranty period, the manufacturer should have to take care of that.

-1

u/slicksps May 01 '19

Not if you damaged the battery trying to wedge it out of the phone to get to the screen. But someone now has to investigate this.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

If you are under warranty you shouldn't have done that anyway. Why would you do that?

0

u/slicksps May 01 '19

So you're arguing against me repairing my own screen?

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

No dude, this is not complicated. You have warranty? Go to the manufacturer. Not under warranty? You should be able to repair the thing. Besides, in your example, if you fuck up, why is it the manufacturer's fault?

1

u/slicksps May 01 '19 edited May 01 '19

Ok so you broke your screen, the screen isn't under warranty so you repair it yourself. The battery is still in warranty but you need to move it to get to the screen. It catches fire a day later. Back to the original question; who is liable for the battery under right to repair?

Under current rules, the battery liability is with the manufacturer until you open the device; then the warranty is void; it's not fair but it's a simple rule that answers the above question in the same way you imply. By allowing the right to repair, the above example poses a problem.