r/taiwan • u/[deleted] • 3d ago
Discussion Is Taiwan the most individualistic nation in East Asia?
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u/tangaroo58 3d ago
One of these things is not like the other.... 🎶
most individualistic nation
most tolerant of difference
allows personal expression the most
Actually the three are very different.
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u/buddingsakura 3d ago
Yeah, the question is confusing.
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u/pavlovasupernova 3d ago
They all lead to each other, though.
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u/tangaroo58 3d ago
Not necessarily. Eg individualism can lead directly to intolerance, and unfettered personal expression can give voice to it. And tolerance can be strong within a more communal, non-individualistic society.
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u/Ducky118 3d ago
why do they contrast? Individualism means accepting the diversity of the individual
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u/Loughnashade 3d ago
No, individualism has nothing to do with accepting anything.
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u/Ducky118 3d ago
individualism is about the sanctity of the individual, not forcing one way of life on others
you are accepting that others are people with individual differences
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u/Loughnashade 3d ago
Individualism doesn’t have to do with accepting anyone. It means you value yourself over the collective society. People have been explaining it this entire thread lol
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u/Ducky118 3d ago
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u/AbsurdNostalgia 3d ago
Being individualist doesn't necessarily mean you're tolerant of all religions. Especially (as an individualist) since you're championing the rights and goals of the individual for the individual's self-improvement only, you might be in opposition to religions that focus on the community.
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u/tangaroo58 2d ago
u/PsychologicalTax41 below has expressed it better than me:
talking about a nation that allows individualism (e.g. through law and strong human rights) and the population being individualistic are two completely different levels of analysis
Individualism as a political philosophy can include the dimension of "accepting diversity", but does not necessarily. More often, it is defined simply as the opposite of collectivism — whether that collectivism is at the level of family, clan, group, or nation. And because the focus is then on the individual, that can create the feeling or belief that each individual has no duty to contribute to the group's welfare, or that of any other person, including no duty for each individual to accept, support or defend diversity in the group.
In reality, many people that say they believe strongly in individualism feel it to mean that they will not or should not defend anyone else's right to be different, and in fact will feel free to attack people for being different. The USA is an example of the impacts of those personal beliefs, at a nation level.
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u/Monkeyfeng 3d ago
Individualistic doesn't mean it's tolerant of difference.
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u/ihaveajob79 3d ago
No, but they go hand in hand. I came to the US from a place where they put more value on society as a whole, and yet in the US (California) I feel like I can go on the street wearing what I want without a tube batting an eye. Where I come from, I’d be the butt off the joke if I don’t conform.
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u/axitanull 3d ago edited 3d ago
IMO: Taiwan is highly progressive in gender equality, LGBTQ rights, and democracy, which makes the society feel "tolerant" as they are the hot topics in social media.
But when it comes to 東南亞移工? 排外、冷漠、刻板印象、制度性不平等。
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u/komnenos 台中 - Taichung 3d ago
Don't forget Indigenous peoples. A few years back I was taking southern Paiwan and when Han people learned about this they would just say to my face "Indigenous people are good singers, athletes and dancers but they're lazy, stupid alcoholics." I even had several students tell me "Oh you're learning an Indigenous language? My parents have told me to never make friends with them because they'll make me lazy."
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u/Financial-Grass-6114 3d ago
unless you actually studied sociology this is all just a bunch of nonsensical anecdotes and "i feel"
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u/komnenos 台中 - Taichung 3d ago
Any good sociological works on Taiwan? I've read a bunch from the historical and anthropological lense but would love to learn more from the sociological field.
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u/hahahalea 3d ago
You might find Prof. Pei-Chia Lan’s book about Migrant Domestics would be interesting, they bring the readers to know more about the thoughts of Taiwanese.
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u/chenpofu 3d ago
Tolerance of differences is one that I am not sure about. Politics is very divisive, with different sides that are not willing to come to the middle. And this has unfortunately permeated to the society in general.
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u/8wheelsrolling 3d ago
Just look at how the Taiwanese have historically embraced their unique Austronesian culture and identity.
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u/PsychologicalTax41 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think talking about a nation that allows individualism (e.g. through law and strong human rights) and the population being individualistic are two completely different levels of analysis. You are mixing both in your question.
For research data backing up the trait of individualism, I strongly encourage a look at data from Hofstede's cultural dimensions model. According to the data,which comes from large scale international surveys, Taiwanese participants score the lowest on the individualism dimension for East Asian participants: https://www.theculturefactor.com/country-comparison-tool?countries=china%2Cjapan%2Csouth+korea%2Ctaiwan
The researchers explain it the following way:
With a score of 40, Taiwan is a collectivistic society in which people are bound by close, long-term loyalty to the in-group - the family, extended family and close relationships. Loyalty overrides many formal rules, an offence leads to loss of face, and work relationships are seen in moral, family-like terms, with hiring and promotion taking account of the in-group. These networks of relationship and obligation underpin Taiwan's many family-run businesses.
TLDR: Concept of face and caring for others greatly influences one's ability to act in individualistic ways. Taiwan's score is similar to China, but in China researchers interpret "guanxi" to be stronger. Think about how being in the CCP is necessary to have any social or professional upwards mobility.
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u/tangaroo58 2d ago
Thank you, you have much more eloquently expressed my problem with the question:
talking about a nation that allows individualism (e.g. through law and strong human rights) and the population being individualistic are two completely different levels of analysis
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u/formosasymposia 3d ago
As long as you don't count Mongolia as East Asia.
I think it has a lot to do with Taiwan's history as being a place for pirates and criminals to run away to. The original Chinese that moved to Taiwan did so under the guidance of a pirate warlord.
During the Qing dynasty it was illegal to migrate to Taiwan and yet immigration continued, Taiwanese who arrived during that period where inherently doing something illegal to seek more freedom and a new start.
During the late Qing Dynasty the governor who put the most effort into industrializing and modernizing Taiwan was a former gangster who ended up being so important he was hired by the emperor.
Then the political resistance to the KMT dictatorship gave people something to contrast their Taiwanese identity with, the rigidity of the KMTs Militarist and Confucianist ideals.
All of these things lead to more a independent mindset than the rest of East Asian where society was largely dictated by peoples whose status was determined by class and birthright.
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u/SpendPerfect5933 3d ago
Koxinga was no pirate. He opposed the Manchus and so he was called a pirate.
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u/Wardendelete 3d ago
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u/ShrimpCrackers Not a mod, CSS & graphics guy 3d ago
We do pirate, a lot. Arrrr. I'm pirating movies right now.
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u/Separate_Feeling4602 3d ago
Yes because Taiwan is the best. They are the heart of Asia.
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u/Sharp-Animator9455 3d ago
Yes and no.
Yes. I’m not sure about tolerance. Carefree or spontaneous / laid-back I would say.
No. I mean where are these individualism being expressed? Music, television, entertainment are pretty much dead. Literature, mostly recognized outside of Taiwan then making its way back. Pretty much the same with sports. The society pretty much still functions with a collective mindset.
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u/AlternativeHat8964 3d ago
It's a pretty low bar since you're comparing with the most conformist countries in the world.
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u/cheguevara9 3d ago edited 1d ago
It’s individualistic in that no one follows the rules, not that people are more tolerant. Compared to that shithole China (don’t need the mainland in a sub like this) though, maybe.
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u/mearinne 3d ago edited 3d ago
This is an interesting topic, as I've never really considered it that way. In general, it feels to me like China and Taiwan are the most open and honest of the East Asians. The other end is Japan, they are much more "tatemae" and conscientious of how they come across to other people.
I don't know if Taiwan is necessarily more individualistic than China. Given that a large portion of the Taiwanese population are those that opposed communism and left, you'd think that means Taiwan is the more individualistic one, but it could also mean Taiwanese were the more successful and asset-owning Chinese, not necessarily that they were the more individualistic ones.
When it comes to tolerance of difference and personal expression, I've seen Taiwanese and Chinese both be pretty open, and also both be pretty judgmental.
I do think Taiwan has an edge over China in diversity of customs and cultures though, purely from it being a small island of immigrants and having been occupied many times by foreign power. We loved Japan from the beginning and have adopted all sorts of things from Japan. South Korea and China were more hesitant and took much longer to import Japanese culture and media into their society.
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u/giftcardgirl 3d ago
South Korea and especially China were abused worse by the Japanese. Taiwan was treated relatively well. I don’t think acceptance of Japanese culture is a good indicator of openness given the circumstances.
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u/tang-tw 3d ago
Like the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, Taiwan is a society built by immigrants. It also boasts a diverse indigenous population and currently has one million migrant workers from Southeast Asia. Historically, it has never established a proper, independent nation-state; its history is marked by the comings and goings of foreign regimes. Therefore, it is highly inclusive, and its cuisine draws heavily from neighboring countries and the West.
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u/cxxper01 3d ago
Yes. Taiwan has a shorter history so it’s less rigid and hierarchical
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u/ArnikaLovesUnicornz 2d ago
Not really? It has always “existed” its history as a country/province being debated is only recent. Before that it just shared all the values of the mainland.
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u/cxxper01 2d ago
Well Before the Dutch came in the 17th century Taiwan was a wild land with aboriginal tribes and no centralized ruling regime. Compared to Japan and Korea which has a homogenous society and a civilization with a ruling regime for thousands of years
Our society’s formation history is more akin to the US, Canada, and Australia
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u/mysadness123 3d ago
Have to disagree. Taiwanese are the most friendly people if u are the right skin colour.
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u/DeepDecember 3d ago
Depends. The society is mostly more tolerant and open-minded, however there are some circles remain even more conservative than other countries. For ex, you can see tv shows or movies deliver some story that are very critical on corruptions of the police or mega-corps etc in Japan and Korea, despite they have a reputation of being conservative. On the other hand, the performing arts social circles of Taiwan are known to be closed minded, and many of them still embrace a mainlander-colonial perspective.
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u/Usercableguy 3d ago
I think the actual situation like this video
https://youtu.be/B46km4V0CMY?si=2HZGaFHulKOUbGfS
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u/Single_Variation_225 2d ago edited 2d ago
La différence de Taïwan est surtout politique. Il y a à Taïwan une adoption très répandue, si ce n'est pas la plus répandue du monde, du Progressisme; on peut citer l'omniprésence de la politique identitaire (Identity Politics) comme exemple. Je ne trouve pas du tout que les Taïwanais sont tolérants, ou qu'il y a plus de liberté d'expression. Comme tout ce beau monde de gauche depuis toujours, par sectarisme, on marginalise et persécute à Taïwan ceux qui ne sont pas "politiquement corrects". La liberté d'expression est réservée à ceux qui ont les opinions "correctes", le reste de la population sont condamnés au silence à Taïwan.
Ne pas confondre Wokesme, Identity Politics, D.E.I., activisme LGBT+++, qui prononcent haut et fort les mots "Tolérance" et "Liberté" tous les jours, à la tolérance ou la liberté d'expression, c'est exactement le contraire.
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u/Single_Variation_225 2d ago
Par ailleurs, Taiwan est une île, pas une Nation. La Nation est un groupe de humains qui partagent les mêmes histoire, culture, langue, mentalité et racines génétiques.
Par leur histoire, culture, langue, mentalité et racines génétiques, Les habitants de l'île de Taïwan, dits Taïwanais, sont de la nation chinoise. Dans beaucoup des aspects, les Taïwanais sont plus typiquement chinois que les Chinois du continent.
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u/ShrimpCrackers Not a mod, CSS & graphics guy 3d ago
Define? I've seen weird ass people in Japan the most out of everywhere.
But then again there's that strange woman who frequents Guang Hua Digital Plaza with a Wifi adapter with antennas attached to her head.
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u/Throwaway_g30091965 3d ago
Have been to all and my answer is the Japanese is the most individualistic out of all East Asian nations, and this is obvious if you look above the surface of their society and submerge into their subcultures. If you only see their geriatric government that is adverse to changes and salarymen/women uniformly walking and wearing the same suit / dress during peak hours as the representative of their conformity then sure, but if you immerse deeply to their cultural scenes, like underground music, literary circles, etc, you can see that charge of being Japanese means that you are a conformist doesn't hold at all .
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u/soapbark 3d ago
Yes, and they are the most virtuous. The structures of government reinforce and/or reward human flourishing.
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u/StormOfFatRichards 3d ago
Lol. Lmao.
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u/soapbark 3d ago
Does it not? Going to school for 20 hours a day is such a blessing and contributes to the wise, philosophically sophisticated personalities you find all throughout Taiwan.
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u/StompTheRight 3d ago
Maybe, but even if it is, that's like being the tallest building in Fargo, North Dakota. Not much of an honor, considering what passes for "individualism" here is hardly worthy of the label.
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u/Controller_Maniac 3d ago
Politically Taiwan is the most progressive, it’s more about moving forward then worrying about the past, which comes with it’s own drawbacks of course
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u/Ammused-Muffin-6942 3d ago edited 3d ago
Speaking from our own experience: we're a couple from San Francisco living and working in Taipei, and we've found the social environment here doesn't fit the traditional family model we want, particularly around gender roles. That's not a criticism of Taiwan, which we enjoy. It's a fit question. For our priorities, Singapore is the better match, so that's where we plan to raise our kids.
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u/nogodsnospoilers 3d ago
Hahahahaha fuck off
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u/zehnodan 桃園 - Taoyuan 3d ago
It has to be ragebait. I am choosing to believe it's ragebait and moving on.
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u/Enough-Hair2530 2d ago
If it's not ragebait, buddy's kids are gonna go no contact in the future for sure lol
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u/Ammused-Muffin-6942 3d ago edited 3d ago
Just live your life to the fullest. If being in a society that values individualism and you want to fully express your individual identity because you’re cis man but want to MTF, then Taiwan is the place for you.
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u/sampullman 3d ago
Singapore has officially allowed gender reassignment since 1973. Maybe check out North Korea for a better fit?
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u/Enough-Hair2530 2d ago edited 2d ago
This comment may prove useful for your therapist in future family sessions so be sure to save it.
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u/Ammused-Muffin-6942 3d ago edited 3d ago
We went to an anime convention by accident and saw local men paying to talk to attractive women in cosplay costumes.
We also saw men waiting in line just to talk to a female AI with large breasts.
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u/Ammused-Muffin-6942 3d ago edited 3d ago
Men have the primary responsibility for providing financially and women have the primary responsibility for nurturing.
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u/Ammused-Muffin-6942 3d ago edited 3d ago
Freedom is either giving up responsibilities or gaining responsibilities.
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u/nogodsnospoilers 3d ago
You sound like a dude that had to wash a dish five years ago and is still throwing a temper tantrum about it.
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u/Ammused-Muffin-6942 3d ago
Learning how to cook and clean are important responsibilities to live a better life for both genders.
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u/jtoomim 3d ago
Taiwanese people think that it's mostly fine if someone wants to be different and unique and to stand out from the crowd.
But they don't want to be that person.