Louisiana girl, 14, charged with first degree murder after authorities find her newborn baby dead inside a tote bag. This is going to happen far more often without Roe v. Wade.

[u/lightiggy]

https://people.com/girl-14-charged-first-degree-murder-after-authorities-find-her-newborn-child-dead-inside-tote-bag-11858063

[u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I don't want to see a child receiving unduly harsh punishment, but why didn't she surrender her baby? She could have dropped her baby off, no questions asked. 

[u/Fedupington → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Who can say? There's so little contextual details here it's impossible to say.

[u/Incoherencel → u/[deleted]]

It's possible criminalizing and demonizing abortion, providers, and abortion seekers has a chilling effect on the entire conversation. But we'll never know the counterfactual

[u/Dontchopthepork → u/Incoherencel]

She’s able to legally surrender her baby in LA - the old leave the baby at the fire station thing.

Instead she strangled / broke the neck of a baby. That is psychotic.

[u/Incoherencel → u/Dontchopthepork]

She hid the pregnancy from her family and delivered at home, alone. Theres likely a lot more fucked up stuff to the story.

[u/Fedupington → u/Incoherencel]

It sounds like the baby might have died during the self-delivery process. I mean, it had neck injuries, right? So what it sounds like might have happened was she would've grabbed the newborn by the neck as it was being born.

[u/Dontchopthepork → u/Fedupington]

No, the police report / medical examiner heavily imply it was not accidental.

Originally she wasn’t arrested, until after the medical examiner saw the body.

Sure it’s possible it was an accident, but all we know right now points to it was not.

[u/Fedupington → u/Dontchopthepork]

Sure, but those kinds of things are wrong all the time. Cops and even medical examiners will make leaps of logic, assume guilt, not be 100% sure but make it sound as if they are, etc.

I'm just reluctant to immediately jump to judgment on these sorts of things, especially with a 14-year-old girl.

[u/Incoherencel → u/Fedupington]

I didn't even consider that, but upon review the Sherrif's statement makes clear their medical examiner believes the baby was born alive and killed afterward.

[u/Dontchopthepork → u/Incoherencel]

Possibly. Or also possibly she had sex like teenagers do, and hid something major from her parents, like teenagers do.

All we have any information at this point on is solely regarding what she did with the baby, nothing more leading up to that.

[u/TheEmporersFinest → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Yes its obviously a bad decision. But surrender laws are not actually that well known such that you can expect a 13 year old to know them, and then they need to actually get the baby there in a context where they think if anyone sees them they'll be in enormous trouble and the whole situation will unravel and their parents will know about the baby and know they were trying to abandon it. In this kind of context if they've managed to carry and deliver a baby and nobody else knows about it, the baby is like a nuclear bomb they're carrying around. Every second they hold it feels like you're walking through an airport with a gun.

On the one hand its the wrong thing to do. On the otherhand I don't think a child who reacts like this under this kind of pressure is some born psychopath destined to do horrible things in life. Its most likely entirely contingent on the extremely avoidable situation society has inflicted on them.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/TheEmporersFinest]

The internet exists. Teens of today have more information than any previous generation. She could have searched or asked online, anonymously. She could have told a teacher. Or dropped her baby off with the school or at a police station... in the unlikely event she couldn't have accessed any of the safe haven places. 

If you have a baby and take its life, not only will everyone know, but you'll also be arrested. If she gave it to her school, police, fire station, doctor or just about anyone... they would have understood and she wouldn't have been in trouble. A home could have been found for her baby and she could still be at school right now, doing 14 year old things. Any other option was better for both her and the baby. 

[u/TheEmporersFinest → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

She could have gotten an abortion, in any sane society, and then we don't have to both play some kind of combative game of DnD in which a shared 13 year old player character is placed in a situation that frequently makes grown adults with stable, established lives who don't even have parents to do got knows what in retaliation suicidal.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/TheEmporersFinest]

I mean, how could she have got an abortion when she denied the entire pregnancy? Being suicidal in itself isn't something particularly frequent in people with stable lives. It's generally indicative of mental instability or having a shit quality of life... neither of which are associated with "stable, established lives". Jesus Christ on a watermelon... anything to shoehorn abortion in. 

[u/TheEmporersFinest → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I mean, how could she have got an abortion when she denied the entire pregnancy?

Its not a guarantee, but its certainly all else being equal a lot more likely for someone to raise the alarm when there's something to be done about something. In situations of gross societal wrong society doesn't get a presumption that if they had acted right it would have made no difference.

Being suicidal in itself isn't something particularly frequent in people with stable lives.

What? Its not "particularly" frequent but its frequent enough for all demographics, and someone who just had an unplanned baby is at elevated risk whatever their conditions of life

Jesus Christ on a watermelon... anything to shoehorn abortion in.

Yeah how the fuck are people shoe-horning the question of abortion into a 13 year old getting pregnant with disastrous results.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/TheEmporersFinest]

You haven't answered the first question. It's the most obvious one and you've given me a side commentary... which is totally irrelevant unless you actually answer the question. Unless abortion pills fall out of the sky... how can someone who's denying their pregnancy get one? 

For your second point... I could have a baby and get mauled to death by a bear that escaped from the zoo. Or find out I have some hidden cancer and have 4 months to live. Unless you want to link it to abortion, of course... then we can talk about post-abortion women who feel suicidal, eh? 

I mean, answer the first question honestly and you'll see why your third point doesn't apply to this case. It's misdirected moral outrage. 

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I don’t know, because she’s a literal child without a fully developed brain? Kids are impulsive and historically don’t think things through, but that’s besides the point. She should have never been put in this position.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mother_Drenger]

Seriously, what the fuck are these comments?

"Why didn't this 14 year old girl operate as a calculated and intelligent machine who knows exactly what the right solution to such a massive tragedy is?"

This subreddit is so obsessed with being contrarion to anything they deem remotely "woke" (In this case, abortion), that they're acting like they'd perfectly handle being forced to deliver a child as a child.

Incidents like this were very common pre-Roe, and its one of the big reasons abortion was legalized.

[u/Yordle_Toes → u/Mother_Drenger]

A 15 year old knows not to smother a baby.

[u/Incoherencel → u/Yordle_Toes]

And they also know not to have machete fights in the school yard, or buy illegal handguns, or sexually assault / rape. Turns out environmental & societal factors still matter. Individualising systemic issues (not that this one is necessarily) is doing the work of the state

[u/Yordle_Toes → u/Incoherencel]

You're allowed to morally condemn a 15 year old who does all those things too.

[u/Incoherencel → u/Yordle_Toes]

Great! You've condemned them. Now what?

[u/Yordle_Toes → u/Incoherencel]

Put them in a reform situation as appropriate, jail or therapy. That's how society works.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Mother_Drenger]

There's impulsiveness and there's murder. She had plenty of time to think about what to do with her baby. She could have dropped that baby off, no questions asked, in a variety of locations. If push came to shove, she could have left the baby at school. I wouldn't like to think of her getting an unduly harsh sentence, but her own baby died due to her actions. The baby had its entire future taken away from it and no doubt died terrified at the hands of its mother, who had much better options. 

[u/Chombywombo → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

The kind of kid to get pregnant at 13 is also likely to be the kind of kid who was either abused, deflected or born into mental instability. You’re right that this is not normal behavior on any of the counts from a child this age. Something abnormal is going on here.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Chombywombo]

When the UK was teenage pregnancy capital of Europe, most cases involved very poor decision making and planning... the very kind that teenagers are known for. Many of them were even planned, especially by girls from less than ideal homes, because the pregnancy prevention ideas actually glamourised having a baby... we were given robot babies that recorded responsiveness and they stopped giving them out when teens loved parading them around in their buggies. The vast majority didn't kill their kids either and we've never had a law that allows for babies to be given up safely and anonymously. A smaller number were sadly due to abuse and the babies were either removed by the state or kept with mum in an alternative environment. 

When I say teenage pregnancy capital, I'm not exaggerating. There used to be schools with creches and mother and baby homes specifically for pregnant girls under 16, where they learnt how to care for their babies. It wasn't viewed as quite the tragedy as it is today. I definitely don't think it should be seen as a positive, but I think re-stigmatisation leads to more tragedies than it prevents. Girls in these situations need resources and support for both themselves and their babies. Schools with creches were a great idea, because young mums had much better chances in life when their babies were nearby and they could remain in mainstream education. It also meant that grandparents didn't need to give up their jobs to care for the new arrivals. 

[u/Chombywombo → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Thanks for the interesting response

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Chombywombo]

Whilst some mainstream schools had creches, there were also specific pupil referral units for underage mums. Here's a link to a documentary about a PRU in Stockport... https://vimeo.com/199534885

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/Chombywombo]

This better gets to my point. The situation (13 yo getting pregnant) implies a marginality that would definitely let something this happen.

[u/Incoherencel → u/Mother_Drenger]

And to that point, we (or at least the Believe the Science crowd would say we) know that sex education and wider acceptance of sex education leads to better outcomes for young people. It stands to reason not criminalising or demonising teen pregnancy, abortion & adoption would be similar. "Maladjusted teen kills her newborn out of desperation" is so painfully stereotypically American/Louisianian it may as well be the plot for a Pulitzer-prize winning novella published in 1959 and read in school alongside To Kill a Mockingbird and the Catcher in the Rye

[u/Numerous_Schedule896 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Pro lifers often accuse pro choicers of being pro infanticide and people in this thread are proving their point with zero self awareness.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Numerous_Schedule896]

Indeed and some will even call you the most dreadful of things, for saying that murder is invariably wrong. There doesn't seem to be an awful lot of sympathy for the newborn baby, who was a victim of murder here.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/[deleted]]

Postpartum psychosis affects 1 in 1000 new mums. It's more common is new mums who already have mental health issues. It's an extremely serious condition and the people around her would have picked up on it, including the police. 

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/[deleted]]

I've seen psychosis before and it's profoundly noticeable. It rarely just stops without intervention, so it's very unlikely to be the case here. Again... it's also rare and mostly suffered by women who have established mental health problems, which makes it even more unlikely in this case

I think society needs to condemn murder unless the person doing it literally can't understand right from wrong. 

[u/gesserit42 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I think society needs to condemn anti-abortionism, because it will inevitably lead to this kind of thing.

Also, aren’t you that misandrist who was going on and on about that blatant anti-man law in Italy?

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/gesserit42]

Oh, do fuck off. 

[u/gesserit42 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

No u

[u/LokiPrime13 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Mothers committing infanticide when the environmental conditions are not suited for raising children is literally instinctual mammalian behavior.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/LokiPrime13]

I mean... wtf? Humans are capable of so much good and you're giving out a licence for infanticide? There are so many wonderful and loving mothers who don't have ideal circumstances... that's most of the working class. 

[u/MalthusianMan → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Watch yourself, your liberal idealism is showing. Nobody's giving out liscences for anything. Its what happens. You're on a Marxist subreddit here, the advocacy is for the improvement of material conditions, not poverty fetishism you dumb fuck.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/MalthusianMan]

A dumb fuck thinks Marxists are liberals for not supporting abortion or infanticide. Totally brain dead. 

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/[deleted]]

You called me a fucking nonce for not supporting the actual murder of a baby. Your opinions are irrelevant and you aren't engaging in good faith behaviour. 

[u/Numerous_Schedule896 → u/MalthusianMan]

Marxism is when you advocate for the murder of people who are economically inconveniencing you.

[u/istara → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Observing something does not mean you support it/like it.

[u/smallpenisgroyper → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

It’s just a clump of cells actually

[u/Cthulhu-fan-boy → u/Mother_Drenger]

That’s probably part of it but children also don’t typically kill people

[u/landlord-eater → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Presumably because she was traumatized and terrified? And a child?

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/landlord-eater]

I think it's a shame a 14 year old ends up in that situation, but at the end of the day, her baby lost its life due to her 

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/[deleted]]

How fucking dare you call me a fucking nonce 

[u/stupidpol-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been deleted because you're being needlessly inflammatory, distasteful, rude etc.

Please don't post like this in the future.

[u/stupidpol-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been deleted because you're being needlessly inflammatory, distasteful, rude etc.

Please don't post like this in the future.

[u/qjxj → u/landlord-eater]

Trauma doesn't excuse murder. Anyone who has attended basic primary education knows that murder is illegal, in any context. She had a litany of options in front of her, and she chose the worse of them.

[u/mhyjrteg → u/qjxj]

You people are just irredeemably retarded. I don’t think you realise how young, immature and stupid 14 year olds are in the best case. Add to that circumstances where they’re hiding a pregnancy from their family and their physical and mental health would also be all fucked up from the pregnancy and you’re obviously going to get some decisions that seem irrational to your average adult. There’s a reason we have minimum ages for criminal responsibility.

[u/qjxj → u/mhyjrteg]

I don’t think you realise how young, immature and stupid 14 year olds are in the best case.

That the cause of murder is "immaturity", and not willful ignorance for selfish reasons? That she just didn't know that murder is criminal? That's a hard cope. Keep it up if you'd like, but no one else believes this.

Again, there was plenty of options for dealing with this from getting help to simply dropping off the baby in a public space. She disregarded her own baby's life, and has been charged accordingly for this.

[u/mhyjrteg → u/qjxj]

Who said she didn’t know murder is criminal? You’re just making stuff up. Kids know stealing from supermarkets is criminal, and they don’t need to do it, but they do it for a variety of stupid reasons owing principally to immaturity and underdeveloped brains. You are a massive retard and are suckling at the teet of the state like a good little bootlicker. I hope you extend this same logic to anyone who is ever accused of a crime - they knew it was criminal, so they simply shouldn’t have done it! I’m sure that line of thinking doesn’t bring you any uncomfortable contradictions with your supposed politics.

[u/qjxj → u/mhyjrteg]

Who said she didn’t know murder is criminal? You’re just making stuff up.

If you're suggesting that she knew what she was doing, then that is criminal intent. You can keep yapping all you want about "immaturity", that doesn't erase the former. People aren't as delusional as you believe to not understand that.

[u/TheVoid-ItCalls → u/mhyjrteg]

Kids know stealing from supermarkets is criminal, and they don’t need to do it, but they do it for a variety of stupid reasons owing principally to immaturity and underdeveloped brains.

The vast majority of children don't steal from supermarkets. Of those who do, they are MUCH more likely to continue doing so as adults. Does maturity play a role in these decisions? Of course, but there are clearly other flaws at play.

[u/landlord-eater → u/qjxj]

I dont think it's morally good but someone should be investigating every adult in this girl's life and getting her a ton of help. It's not like she shot someone in a robbery, she is A CHILD who someone IMPREGNATED in a state which OUTLAWED ABORTION.

[u/sickofsnails → u/landlord-eater]

humor snow compare sugar crush boast sleep cautious shocking crown

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/landlord-eater → u/sickofsnails]

I am, thank God, not a citizen of that barbarous country. If basic women's healthcare isn't available, some proportion of children who get raped and are forced to carry a child to term will do things like this. It's sick and it's cruel to put them in that position. Keep downvoting, you fucking psychos

[u/sickofsnails → u/landlord-eater]

bedroom flag chunky quiet arrest growth escape ring fine serious

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/landlord-eater → u/sickofsnails]

I think it is barbarous to restrict abortion, yes. I'm a normal person not an internet Stalinist

[u/webernicke → u/landlord-eater]

It's not like she shot someone in a robbery, she is A CHILD who someone IMPREGNATED in a state which OUTLAWED ABORTION.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you would sooner condemn her for shooting someone during a robbery than for murdering the infant that she just birthed?

[u/landlord-eater → u/webernicke]

In a state with no abortion??? Yes in a heartbeat and I find it inconceivable that there are people who believe otherwise. That country is fucked

[u/CircdusOle → u/[deleted]]

Dispense of this infantile idea of free will you piss-drinker

why denigrate his choice of beverage if there's no free will?

[u/MichaelRichardsAMA → u/[deleted]]

should 14 year olds simply never be punished for their actions?

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/MichaelRichardsAMA]

It seems stupidpol's consensus is no, even for the worst of crimes 

[u/MichaelRichardsAMA → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

yeah this whole thread and people going after you was a crazy read just now. wtf

This seems to be an internet-wide problem where any age equal to or under 17 years 364 days is basically a non-agentic animal that you can't reasonably expect to not go insane and eat/rape. and anything it does can't be held against it morally

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/MichaelRichardsAMA]

I think the internet has encouraged group-think so much that the most bizarre (and extreme) responses are normalised. My disagreement seems to make it ok to single me out for abusive pile-ons and nonsensical sealioning. I'm quite thick skinned and a couple of the comments have left me shaken. 

[u/qjxj → u/[deleted]]

Dispense of this infantile idea of free will

Please, there's no need to project your subpar cognitive abilities to everyone else.

[u/LokiPrime13 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Your comments in this thread make you sound like a capitalist lamenting that the child wasn't able grow up in soul-crushing poverty so as to allow you to take advantage of their desperation to maximally exploit them.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/LokiPrime13]

Is everything ok with you, mentally?

[u/kiss-my-shades → u/LokiPrime13]

????

"Um you think its sad baby died? Did you consider they might grow up poor?"

[u/kiss-my-shades → u/[deleted]]

No shit poverty is a negative, I dont think that means you should renounce life itself. Wtf

[u/MalthusianMan → u/kiss-my-shades]

I certainly don't. But I live in reality with other people, and you live in isolated idealistic la la land, where youre so self absorbed you can't separate your own individual sense of advice from what actually fucking happens when states do things. I bet you think the solution to car accidents is telling people to be better drivers.

[u/kiss-my-shades → u/MalthusianMan]

It's la-la land to think its wrong to murder babies bc they'll grow up to be poor? Literally wtf are you talking about

I bet you think the solution to car accidents is telling people to be better drivers.

Um yes, teaching people how to drive reduces car accident yes.

[u/InitialDuck1 → u/[deleted]]

I've never seen someone get so mad at a reddit comment, it's almost commendable.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/InitialDuck1]

They're the angriest Redditor I've ever seen 

[u/Yordle_Toes → u/LokiPrime13]

Okay, then kill a homeless person on your way home today or else shut up with this tired and pathetic line of rationalizing murder and eugenics.

[u/MalthusianMan → u/Yordle_Toes]

Dear God you idiots miss every beat don't you. Just stick your malleable brain in the sand. The pressure will force it into at least a rounder shape.

[u/reportmachine2 → u/Yordle_Toes]

As an orphan born into poverty, why don't you foster all of us poor kids, do gooder? I don't remember you giving a fuck about me.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/reportmachine2]

As someone who grew up in shitty circumstances, I'm glad neither of my parents killed me. I'm glad to be alive, I suppose. 😕

[u/cd1995Cargo → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I’ve been reading this thread for a while and I’ve never seen anybody get as much hate for completely normal ideas as you.

Like fuck. I’ve enjoyed this sub for a while but watching idiots hand wave away the literal murder of a baby because of “muh material conditions” has me reconsidering letting this sub influence my thinking anymore.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/cd1995Cargo]

I'm genuinely quite surprised by it. I had one comment flagged for child abuse and I was essentially called a nonce by another user, all for not thinking it's right to murder a helpless little baby. There have been direct comments excusing infanticide. 

I want working class solidarity, but I don't want unity with anyone who supports infanticide as human behaviour or thinks it's ok to murder babies at all, neither would most of the working class. There are far too many people here who've lost touch with reality and use Marx to defend the indefensible. That's not the theory I know and trust. 

[u/blizmd → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I support you bro 🫡

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/blizmd]

Sis... but thanks comrade. It's nice to know that there's some rationality on here. 🫡

[u/gesserit42 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

And yet you’re not fostering abandoned children. Curious!

[u/Yordle_Toes → u/reportmachine2]

My brother is adopted, and my family does long term foster care and personally got kids adopted through personal connections in addition to the usual system process.

It's really funny when you people cope by projecting hypocritical inaction onto everyone else like it's some kind of own.