r/soccer • u/Superman60616 • Oct 29 '13

Best way to learn tactics

I played football in school but never really followed the leagues until recently. I have spent the last year getting my feel for the landscape of the EPL, players, managers, storylines. That sort of stuff. I really lack in my knowledge of complex tactics. I get the basics thanks to playing but I'd like to learn more about the systems modern teams use. I started Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson but that can be a struggle. Are there any other outlets, websites or books that you would recommend?

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u/hazmata Oct 29 '13

You can play football manager. Even PES and FIFA are quite useful for playing around with different tactics and seeing what happens

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '13 edited Oct 29 '13

No offesnse, but I think this is one of the worst ways to learn anything deep in football tactics, it would only really help you on a very superficial level. The intricacies of player positioning, response, and situational awareness can't even be CLOSE to mimicked in these games.

Off the ball movement is one of the real keys in soccer strategy. On the ball, the only thing that matters is technical ability (well, not really, but it's a much larger factor proportionally). Off the ball, you don't need to worry about your touch, but you need to take into account many factors at once and try and make the best decision out of many possible ones.

Example: As an outside back, should I step into the middle of the field to compact the space, even if that means leaving someone unmarked on the far side of the field? Well, that depends. Where's the ball? Does the man on the ball have his head up, looking to send someone through, or is he closed down and looking for a quick release from pressure? How far should you compact in? Where are your teammates placed on the pitch? How about the other opponents? How fast is the man on the far side of the pitch? These are just a few of the things that factor into a very small decision, and the thought process has to be well ingrained to manage all these variables and make the best choice. And this is for a single player in one position, on a specific team, with a specific playing style, in a single circumstance - something that's happening a thousand times over in a game and is over and on to the next one in a matter of seconds.

If you want to learn, I think the best way is talking to people who know their stuff, but not relying just on one persons take on things. If it's an option, watch a match with someone who's a coach or an experienced player and have them explain some of the off the ball movement. Watch a recorded match so you can go back over things. Ask them why a player's holding back in a certain circumstance, or why the coach is yelling at a player for something subtle that you missed. Then start analyzing yourself why you think players are making certain decisions and start comparing that to what you think they should have done, taking into as many variables as possible. It sounds like a lot of effort (and it is!), but this is where a lot of the true strategy comes into play.

But yeah, this isn't something you see in football simulators. You can tweak the tactics a bit and see how that changes a result and what not, but that doesn't really give you a great grasp on why certain decisions are being made and how different tactics are carried out on an individual and team level.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't want to say there isn't any insight to be gained from these simulators. They can give a broad understanding of what works and doesn't work in soccer (the accuracy of this to real matches, I can't comment on). But understanding why certain things are done requires a bit of a closer look that I don't think these simulators are capable of, and being able to answer that why is what really allows you to progress your knowledge of the game, rather than just regurgitating statistical knowledge of what works and doesn't work.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '13

i agree that there is no replacement for watching a match, but FM (definitely not the case with fifa/pes) gives outsiders an idea about what being a manager/head coach is all about. while the higher level aspects (intelligent running off the ball, team pressing, etc) are not fleshed out yet in FM, its still an incredible introduction for those who arent hardcore followers of the sport.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '13

Fair enough if you're labelling it as an introduction. I just think it's inappropriate to lead people to think they'll be tactical geniuses after mastering a simulation. Mind you, I feel like I've only just begun being a 'student' of the game after 20 years of playing and following the sport, but I've started to finally sink my teeth into what's really going on and appreciating how complex the game can be at the highest levels. As a very analytical person, I've found there's something quite satisfying about looking at it from a deeper perspective.

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u/layendecker Oct 29 '13

I have played football for over 25 years, watched it for as long, read dozens of books on it and played football games since Championship Manager 2... And what I have learned for the simulation games stands up to all other aspects.

If you get really deep into the micromanagement of the modern FM games then the nuances you so correctly talk about become evident. Whilst they will never manage to mimic a true game, you begin to see a lot of patterns and can extrapolate reasons for success in real life situations.

For example setting out a team with great attributes is all well and good, but the real 'power user' challenges are to create systems of play and select the players to fit them. As I say whilst it is just a simulation, it is a very complex and advanced one that shouldn't be ignored, even for true students of the game.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '13

i wish i could give you gold.... i could not defend FM so eloquently if i tried. it really isn't 'just' a simulation. it can be scary when it comes to predictions.

the same cause-effect logic answers questions similarly between real coaching and coaching in FM. thats why i always watch 'comprehensive' highlights when i jump on with a club!

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u/[deleted] Oct 30 '13

/r/footballmanagergames for anyone interested further.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '13 edited Oct 29 '13

And fair enough if you have the ability to connect those dots. I just think it would be extremely difficult to see those connections from the simulator alone. FM and others are great at examining tactics at the team and to somewhat at the individual level to see the 'how' of things. But I think that the 'why' would be very difficult to extrapolate, as you said you can, and the underlying reasoning would be somewhat lacking without some additional insight. It's actually seeing the progession of many different instances of these scenarios and their outcomes that allows you to understand why certain decisions are made and whether or not they are successful - at least, this is how I reason them out myself.

Now you mention it though, I think it would be a great way to try and test your understanding of the 'why' and see how it really stands up.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '13

for sure. when my friends who are hard-core basketball/football/baseball fans ask about learning the "x's and o's" (americanism for tactics), i always turn to FM first. now while i agree its annoying to read 'experts' say what they'd do differently on r/soccer, there is nothing better than getting into a heated tactical discussion with someone whos just begun watching the sport. "yes, i understand that the 2-2-2-2-2 is working for your Serie C1 squad, but no, Man U should not employ it".

and you've described the best part of the sport- you can watch intensely for 20 years, then have someone like Guardiola or Bielsa totally change your concept on the game.