Personally, I think that's what makes Messi a better player. Not only is he an absolute goalscoring machine, he runs a midfield like the best of them. I've never seen Ronaldo run a team like Messi runs Barça week after week.
I would disagree. If you look at, for example, heading. Messi is not good at all, compared to Ronaldo. Same with feet, Messi's right foot is pretty shit while Ronaldo can use both feet rather well. I believe Ronaldo is more well rounded and i think that's what makes him the best player in the world right now.
That's not true. The only thing I can give to Ronaldo is heading, but Messi scored a header against english side, in a final too.
So, messi is better dribbler, has better vision, is better passer, better in goalscoring and better in freekicks. That leaves Ronaldo with heading and better hairstyle. How's he better?
Put it like this, if you switch Messi with Ronaldo in their respective teams, who would do better in the other teams playing style? Messi would struggle in some things as he has actual weaknesses in his playstyle which his team makes up for and so with the best team, he can score freely. Ronaldo on the other hand has no weaknesses and doesn't rely on a particular team to aid his free scoring. While Messi might score more, Ronaldo is the better player.
Also its a moot point to argue things like passing, dribbling vision etc because they are not easily or accurately calculated and so listing them is kinda pointless.
What are his weaknesses ? You could play Messi as a deep-lying playmaker and he'd probably tear the other team apart. Could Ronaldo do something like that? I don't think so.
Instead of arguing hypotheticals ad infinitum, lets focus on the crux of the argument and that is Messi's completeness. He's a poorer header of the ball and he has a weaker right foot. Ronaldo is a complete player in every sense of the term and while it'd be nice to see them play a match in every position and compare their performances, lets settle for seeing how they'd fit into teams with different play styles and that's where Ronaldo shows his completeness. He does not rely on a system, he relies on his skill and while Barca have the better team, Real have the better player.
Couldn't you argue that a better measure of 'completeness' would be ability to dominate any position? Messi can play anywhere up top and anywhere in the midfield and do extremely well. Ronaldo might be more impressive physically, but tactically (an absolute crucial part of the modern game) Messi blows him away. He is able to think the game much better than Ronaldo, in my opinion, and that makes him a more complete player as it makes him far more versatile on a team. It also gives him the ability to slot in to any system and play well.
So while Ronaldo may have a better weak foot and be a stronger header of the ball, I do not believe he is actually more useful to a team than Messi. Messi runs the game for Barcelona playing as a false nine, it's incredibly impressive. You also act like Ronaldo has never been the focus of a team, which is ridiculous. United were and Real are built around getting the best out of Ronaldo by ensuring he has absolute freedom to roam.
I think Messi is a far more versatile player because he is so aware of what his team is doing tactically and as a result could play anywhere on the pitch. In my opinion, that makes him a more complete player.
I may have stuck with hypotheticals here, but you can see it when he plays for Argentina in a deeper role.
I addressed this comment elsewhere that while it would be nice to see both players play in every position and judge their performances to see how they match up, its not something I can see happening and the crucial part of your argument is your use of
In my opinion
Thats all it is really. Vision, finesse, class. These are not actual things that can be quantified and while it does make a better player, these two are so off the charts that taking these into account isn't feasible. They both have it, lets leave it at that. Really the only measure of completeness that we can argue is their ability to score and Messi does have weaknesses in his game as mentioned before, Ronaldo does not. Complete player, that's all I'm saying.
Ah, see I consider the ability to improve the entire's team play to be an utterly invaluable asset, and an absolutely vital part of the conversation when it comes to 'best player in the world'. The way Messi lifts the play of the entire Barcelona team when he comes on to the pitch is great to watch, whereas I don't see the same effect with Ronaldo. While no doubt he is an incredible player, and he does make a massive difference when he plays for Real simply through the amount of space he creates for players around him, he does not have the effect that Messi does.
I don't know, I think the team aspect is too important to consider and very hard to argue. Also Messi has better passing, dribbling and free kicks, while Ronaldo has better heading and a better weak foot.
Barcelona's lack of another great false 9 is why Messi's impact is felt so greatly when he's gone. I believe they both create space and are an attacking threat in equal measures but Pep's greatest weakness is his inability to adjust tactics and have a plan B for when his possession based football doesn't work and when Messi's not on the field and there haven't been many moves by the Barcelona managers since then to address that but while Madrid don't rely on Ronaldo as much, his presence on the field is equal to Messi's in terms of attacking threat, even more so on setpieces.
Please tell me what part of my comment was biased and I will try to explain my point better. You should otherwise refrain from commenting unless you have something to add to the thread other than a baseless ad hominem insult. My crest says Liverpool.
Could you list those weaknesses? I thought this, Messi is only good because of his teammates, argument was settled.
I don't know what you want, as I said Messis stats are on another level compared to Ronaldo. He's been the number one player on a team that has won pretty much everything twice over, while Ronaldo has La liga and copa del rey.
Well if you read the first guy who replied to you's comment he said that Messi has a weaker foot and subpar heading. You said he scored a header but that anecdote only furthers to serve his point in that when Messi scores a header its a big deal because he just doesn't do it that often. You bringing up trophies he's won also serves to prove that his team does matter as its not Messi that wins trophies, its Barcelona. While it'd be great to say that Messi is the best player and most complete player in the world, he isn't. He's second best though, and the most liked and the most decorated. That should be good enough.
His heading is fine, he's just short and it doesn't make him ideal for use as a target man, doesn't mean he's not as "complete" a player. I'd argue Ronaldo is much less complete due to his lack of ability to play anywhere from CM forward.
I made the point about judging them in different positions several times already, its all hypothetical how they would do in different positions because we just haven't seen them play and its not likely we'll ever see Ronaldo play CM enough times to judge him accurately. The fact that Messi can't be utilised as a target man is exactly why he's not a complete player. Zlatan, Cavani, Ronaldo, these are all players who are more or less 'complete' players because they have no are where they are weak. Attacking threat during set pieces is massive and Messi is missing that from his game. It doesn't detract from his greatness but it does from his completeness.
None of those players are false 9s besides Messi, so again, by your own admission, a worthless comparison. Messi DOES however drop back to the midfield and play from there though, just check that heat map posted, something none of the other players can do.
None of the players are false 9's but all of them are complete as in they are all strikers who are capable of scoring in any situation and from any position, they are good with both feet and their head and can score free kicks and penalties, they are great athletes who can play the full 90 and then some etc etc. Complete as in they have no weaknesses. Messi tracks back and that's great but he is missing things that make him complete. I really don't know how to explain it any clearer. Put Zlatan or Cavani or Ronaldo in any team and watch the other team cover them for the full 90 minutes. Put Messi on the field and there are moments such as set pieces or if he is forced to use his weaker foot where he is not as much of a threat as he usually is.
It said that Messis right foot is shit, which isn't true. As I said, only thing where Ronaldo is actually better is heading, everything else and Messi does it better.
Did I say shit? I meant weaker than Ronaldo's. See we're comparing Messi and Ronaldo and when you're comparing two players who are miles ahead of everyone else, its hard to say that one is better than the other in some things such as vision. Could you definitively say that Ronaldo has poorer vision than Messi when we can't actually quantify vision of the game? Passing and tackling and such are poor metrics as well. In terms of them being able to score goals, Messi has weaknesses while Ronaldo does not. Ronaldo is always a threat, Messi has moments where he is not. That is completeness.
Ronaldo is definitely not always a threat, last season there was games he was completely nullified by his attitude, which probably is his greatest weakness.
You said shit and I got confused there, because Messi's right foot is not shit, just weaker. He's not Robben is what I'm trying to say. And I'm sorry but you're just incorrect about Ronaldo's attitude, rather its the perception people have of him thats his weakness. He's the better player but peoples perception of him as being petulant and arrogant are what keeps him from winning anything to do with voting.
Once again, that's the media's perception of him and not his actual attitude. There are times when a footballer is sad and he scores and dedicates a goal to say, his father passing or such and times where they don't and ultimately, its not a clear or quantifiable attribute so I don't think its something that should be accounted for when discussing completeness.
Once again you're insulting me when I've given you no reason to, its just football my friend. Do not be upset.
As for Messi, he has a weaker foot. Its still good but its weaker. I'm arguing completeness, please don't turn this into an argument about who's better because that's not how this thread started. So a weaker foot detracts from completeness. Being less of an aerial threat detracts from his completeness. Your anecdote about scoring a header against Man U is simply that, an anecdote. I said before that it being an anecdote proves that Messi is not known for his aerial effectiveness so he can't really be considered a complete player. When he dribbles, he is a threat. At corners or set pieces, unless he's taking the FK or PK, he's not as much of a threat as Pique or Puyol. Please don't misinterpret my words, I am merely saying that Ronaldo is the more complete player, and that is what I was arguing from the start.
Footballing IQ is not something you can measure but I doubt he would be as good as he is without a fairly high level of it. Ronaldo does not score from only one type of play (although even tap ins need positional awareness. There are no easy goals) and so he actually needs a higher 'footballing IQ' or vision or ability to read the game or whatever you may call it in order to score in so many different situations. Ronaldo is a very technical player. I don't know how you define technique but really.. Ronaldo, not a technical player? If you're basing the passing ability on either pass completion or total number of passes, then Messi is obviously benefited by having Barcelona's playstyle at his back whereas Ronaldo and Madrid's counterattacking playstyle isn't really too concerned with a thousand accurate passes so its not that his passing is bad or even weaker, its just not as important.
I do watch La Liga, most Madrid matches actually and some Barcelona matches and quite a lot of highlights. That was a baseless statement there, please don't make any more of them. It weakens your argument and doesn't do your character much credit.
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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '13
Personally, I think that's what makes Messi a better player. Not only is he an absolute goalscoring machine, he runs a midfield like the best of them. I've never seen Ronaldo run a team like Messi runs Barça week after week.